Vitamin D and Testosterone Study. Bad News for Hair Loss?

Supplements for hair loss
41

Well, that does not make sense. If you believe that as men age, their estrogen levels rise, and that this estrogen suppresses DHT, then why do these older males have less hair? If, as you state, all of this DHT is being suppressed, what is causing these older men to lose hair?

If you take a car and drive it fast & hard, it will probably run pretty well for the first 100,000 miles despite the abuse. It’s still a relatively new vehicle and it started out in perfect condition.

If you then slow down the abuse and just drive it normally from 100,000 to 200,000 miles, what happens? Yeah, the car still totally wears out and comes apart. That’s what cars usually do between 100,000 and 200,000 miles.

So does this prove that driving the car hard was BETTER for the mechnicals than driving the car smoothly?

– My point is that the period in life when the hair follicles are showing the most effects of androgen damage is not necessarily the same time when the damage is accumulating the most rapidly.

Now think about what happens if you drive a car REALLY hard as hell in its early life, and it DOES start showing signs of coming apart at only 50,000 miles . . . In this case the damage has gotten too bad too early and it will snowball apart faster than a normal car.

Even if you take it very easy on the car from 100,000-200,000 miles the car will STILL be coming apart much more than normal just because it saw too much abuse too early. The more a mechanical part is worn, the faster the additional wear accumulates.

– This is what happens when a guy inherits severe MPB susceptibility and sees aggressive loss in his teens and 20s. The snowball has gotten too fast & too far down the hill at such an early age. He can load up on MPB medication and he will still be struggling to maintain his hair. While another guy with less severe early MPB will get much more hair preservation benefits from those same MPB meds at the same age.

42

» Well, that does not make sense. If you believe that as men
» age, their estrogen levels rise, and that this estrogen suppresses DHT,
» then why do these older males have less hair? If, as you state, all of this
» DHT is being suppressed, what is causing these older men to lose
» hair?
»
»
» If you take a car and drive it fast & hard, it will probably run pretty
» well for the first 100,000 miles despite the abuse. It’s still a
» relatively new vehicle and it started out in perfect condition.
»
» If you then slow down the abuse and just drive it normally from 100,000 to
» 200,000 miles, what happens? Yeah, the car still totally wears out and
» comes apart. That’s what cars usually do between 100,000 and 200,000
» miles.
»
» So does this prove that driving the car hard was BETTER for the
» mechnicals than driving the car smoothly?
»
»
»
»
» – My point is that the period in life when the hair
» follicles are showing the most effects of androgen damage is not
» necessarily the same time when the damage is accumulating the most
» rapidly.
»
»
»
»
» Now think about what happens if you drive a car REALLY hard as hell in its
» early life, and it DOES start showing signs of coming apart at only 50,000
» miles . . . In this case the damage has gotten too bad too early and it
» will snowball apart faster than a normal car.
»
» Even if you take it very easy on the car from 100,000-200,000 miles the
» car will STILL be coming apart much more than normal just because it saw
» too much abuse too early. The more a mechanical part is worn, the faster
» the additional wear accumulates.
»
»
»
» – This is what happens when a guy inherits severe MPB
» susceptibility and sees aggressive loss in his teens and 20s. The snowball
» has gotten too fast & too far down the hill at such an early age. He can
» load up on MPB medication and he will still be struggling to maintain his
» hair. While another guy with less severe early MPB will get much more hair
» preservation benefits from those same MPB meds at the same age.

It’s official. Cal is an automechanic.

I fully agree with this logic. I thought this myth was debunked a long time ago??

43

» Well, that does not make sense. If you believe that as men age, their
» estrogen levels rise, and that this estrogen suppresses DHT, then why do
» these older males have less hair? If, as you state, all of this DHT is
» being suppressed, what is causing these older men to lose hair?
»
» According to you: Older men have: A. Higher estrogen; B. Lower DHT; C.
» Lower testosterone; D. Less hair. Well then, fine. Tell me, what pretell,
» is causing an increase in hair loss as these men age?

I’ve already explained that to you (TWICE, in fact) in previous posts. How many times do I have to keep explaining it to you?

» Again, when someone does the math, he is left with one conspicuous
» androgen: estrogen.

You think estrogen is a “conspicuous androgen”? :smiley:

» This study might interest you as well, as we come full circle to my
» original statement concerning the effect that an increase of testosterone
» has on our hair:
»
»
» DHT levels may decline with testosterone administration
»
» Giving testosterone to elderly men with subnormal levels of the androgen
» may decrease their plasma 5α-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels,
» European researchers have been surprised to discover.

Really? Then why do you suppose lowering estrogen with an aromatase inhibitor in older men with BPH raises both their testosterone and DHT?

44

It’s official. Cal is an automechanic.

heh, heh. Not currently.

But you’re right about the association. Let’s just say I’ve yanked a few engines and welded a few fenders in my time.

:wink:

45

Your analogy is still, nevertheless, one of cause and effect. And it makes sense. However prolonged, the effect is eventually expressed.

But if you were to buy an old used vehicle, and then drive it hard, you would expect this car to wear out quickly, right.

If, in fact, increased testosterone (via vitamin D, for example) equates with driving hard, I find it interesting that this does not result in immediate damage (or accelerated hair loss) for an old used car like me (over thirty, genetically susceptible).

On the contrary.

46

Giving testosterone to elderly men with subnormal levels of the androgen may decrease their plasma-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels, European researchers have been surprised to discover.

The team studied the impact of 15 months’ treatment with long-acting testosterone undecanoate in 32 men, and 9 months’ treatment with testosterone gel in 23 men.

The groups had mean ages of 61 and 60 years, respectively. Plasma DHT and testosterone levels were measured before and 9 months after testosterone administration, and also at 12 and 15 months in the testosterone undecanoate group.

Mean plasma DHT levels declined following testosterone treatment from 0.95 to 0.55 nmol/l. The decline was particularly apparent among men who, in spite of their subnormal plasma testosterone levels, had elevated plasma DHT.

DHT in all 21 men with initial levels above 0.60 nmol/l fell from a mean of 1.29 to 0.70 nmol/l.

Below this arbitrary baseline cutoff point, 13 DHT values rose and 21 fell. On average, there was a decline from 0.39 to 0.30 nmol/l.

The researchers note that DHT decreases leveled off after 12 months, and declines did not differ greatly between the treatment modalities over the first 9 months.

“It is reasonable to assume that the ratio DHT/testosterone is an expression of 5a-reductase activity in androgen target organs that strongly express 5a-reductase,” they report in the journal Andrologia.

“If so, the above observation suggests a reduction of 5α-reductase activity when plasma testosterone levels rise upon testosterone administration.”

47

» » Oh, and Bryan, do tell us what you are presently using
» » to fight this hair loss battle.
»
» I’m not currently using anything at all; but when I do use anything,
» Dr. Proctor’s products are the foundation of my treatment: Proxiphen,
» Prox-N, and NANO shampoo. I’ve also experimented in the past with various
» topical concoctions of my own.

I have a really good question. The general consensus across the board is that DHT (5-alpha reductase) is the key component responsible for hair loss.

If someone were to inhibit 98% of their dht via taking 2.5 mg of dutasteride daily, then why is it still possible that some of these people still claim to be losing hairs? (Some even go as far as saying their hair loss accelerated).

What’s the science behind this phenomena?

Also, most of us believe all androgens are bad for hair. Adrogen Receptors has an affinity for each androgen. Rather than focusing on each individual androgen (as they have other vital roles in our body as well), why not just try to focus on reducing or eliminating the androgen receptors? Why aren’t we more focused on supressing our androgen receptacles, and why aren’t drugs or topicals being more geared towards eliminating Androgen Receptors?

48

I suggest you do something useful, like do a little searching on some basic endocrinology. See if there’s any truth to the bizarre claim made by “Dr. Wong” about how DHT is supposedly made from estrogen. If you find out the truth about that ridiculous claim, maybe you’ll be less likely to believe anything else that quack says.

49

» Can I ask the significance of nano shampoo? Other than speeding the growth
» of existing hairs, how does it fight hair loss?

Dr. Proctor said something a while back which caught my eye: he said that there are certain aspects to the chemical structure of NANO which suggest that it may have similar spin-label properties as those other powerful SOD substances he uses, like TEMPO/TEMPOL and PBN. From what I’ve heard more recently, he apparently thinks those last ones are the most effective agents of all in Proxiphen.

» And can it be used in conjuction with regular shampoo and niz2%?

Sure. Rotating NANO Shampoo with Nizoral and an ordinary shampoo should be the ideal way to use them.

50

» I have a really good question. The general consensus across the board is
» that DHT (5-alpha reductase) is the key component responsible for hair
» loss.
»
» If someone were to inhibit 98% of their dht via taking 2.5 mg of
» dutasteride daily, then why is it still possible that some of these people
» still claim to be losing hairs? (Some even go as far as saying their hair
» loss accelerated).
»
» What’s the science behind this phenomena?

I can only speculate, of course, but I’ve certainly always believed that other androgens besides DHT can also cause MPB. Other people who post on hairloss sites like this one are CONSTANTLY referring to DHT, as if that’s all we need to worry about. It’s always “DHT this…DHT that…” among the vast majority of posters. It drives me a little crazy! :slight_smile: If you bother to read any of my other posts on any of these hairloss sites, you’ll notice that I almost always use the more generic term “androgens”, rather than the specific term “DHT”; except, of course, when I need to make a specific statement or reply to someone who specifically mentioned DHT.

» Also, most of us believe all androgens are bad for hair. Adrogen Receptors
» has an affinity for each androgen. Rather than focusing on each individual
» androgen (as they have other vital roles in our body as well), why not just
» try to focus on reducing or eliminating the androgen receptors? Why aren’t
» we more focused on supressing our androgen receptacles, and why aren’t
» drugs or topicals being more geared towards eliminating Androgen Receptors?

That’s a good question, and my hunch is that substances that really do effectively reduce the expression of androgen receptors are relatively few and far between. I have a study here which found that EGCG from green tea reduced the number of androgen receptors in an in vitro study of prostate cancer cells; and you occasionally see other substances mentioned on hairloss sites which are supposed to be able to do that, at least under certain circumstances. But how effectively they can really do that in the Real World with real, live MPB patients is anybody’s guess.

51

» » I 'll let you know if I come across anything in this area - I know that
» Dr
» » Yechiel has some interesting substances that he uses in his formulas.
» One
» » of which is GABA.
»
» Do you really think GABA helps fight MPB?

I think it would be nice to see a more optimised topical from Dr Y.

»
» » Are you still in contact with Dr P ? Has he thought about
» » updating his formulas?
»
» I haven’t talked to him in several years. He’s always updating his
» formulas, constantly tinkering with them! :slight_smile:

It would be good to get Dr P on the topical section to answer questions :slight_smile:

Have you thought of developing more “concoctions” ?

Thanks
Pete

52

C’mon, weren’t you at least a little surprised (as the European researchers were) to learn that DHT levels may decline with testosterone administration?

Be honest Huckleberry: This caught you off guard, as you have yet to properly address the study.

TN

53

» C’mon, weren’t you at least a little surprised (as the European
» researchers were) to learn that DHT levels may decline with
» testosterone administration?
»
» Be honest Huckleberry: This caught you off guard, as you have
» yet to properly address the study.

It didn’t catch me off guard, for the simple reason that I’d already heard about it before you posted it. I haven’t read the study, though. Give me the full citation, and I’ll grab it the next time I’m at the med library.

54

» » C’mon, weren’t you at least a little surprised (as the European
» » researchers were) to learn that DHT levels may decline with
» » testosterone administration?
» »
» » Be honest Huckleberry: This caught you off guard, as you have
» » yet to properly address the study.
»
» It didn’t catch me off guard, for the simple reason that I’d already heard
» about it before you posted it. I haven’t read the study, though. Give me
» the full citation, and I’ll grab it the next time I’m at the med library.

ooohh the “med library”, lol. no wonder I can’t find jack. I was using my regular school library :expressionless: …thought they had everything

55

I just wanna mention this as a general comment for the discussion:

It has been pointed out before that Merck’s Propecia/Finasteride testing did a lot to lock up the belief that type#2 DHT was prinicipally responsible for MPB. But given what they were doing the studies for, they clearly had a vested interest in highlighting the effects of this androgen at the expense of all others.

I am not accusing them of purposely falsifying data about Finasteride. But commercial drug researchers aren’t exactly immune to, well . . . “finding what they want to find” in many cases. (Remember, this bunch also declared that 1mg Fin had a rate of sexual side effects 1.5% over placebo.)

56

» It didn’t catch me off guard, for the simple reason that I’d already heard
» about it before you posted it. I haven’t read the study, though. Give me
» the full citation, and I’ll grab it the next time I’m at the med library.

The “med library,” huh. Wow, now I am really impressed (with your ability to name-drop). :yes:

Peruse at your leisure:

57

» The “med library,” huh. Wow, now I am really impressed
» (with your ability to name-drop). :yes:

You’re easily impressed, Tom Sawyer. But anyway, thanks for the citation.

58

» You’re easily impressed, Tom Sawyer. But anyway, thanks for the citation.

You are welcome. I enjoyed our discussions.

:wink:

59

» » You’re easily impressed, Tom Sawyer. But anyway, thanks for the
» citation.
»
» You are welcome. I enjoyed our discussions.
»
» :wink:

You mean the teachings and learning hahhaha I’m only kidding Tom :wink:

60

Below is a comment somebody made on another hairloss site about that same study you reported here, and my response to him:

To me it seems almost like the male body considers DHT a kind of “super testosterone”, that’s the way I view it in myself :slight_smile:

So when my body doesn’t have enough T, it goes “oooo crap!” and makes lots of DHT probably by upregulating 5ar conversion of testosterone

Your body maintains a tight control over testosterone, not DHT, sending the chemical signals to the testes which control its synthesis. So when your body thinks it doesn’t have enough testosterone, it releases more LH and FSH (luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone), to increase its production. I’m unaware of any sort of feedback mechanism that the body has that would increase the amount of DHT as a response to low testosterone, and I view the results of that study with some suspicion. I hope to get a better idea of what was going on with that, once I get a chance to read the whole thing.

By the way, you might be interested to know that there was a study a while back by some top-notch hairloss researchers (Happle & Hoffmann) that found something exactly OPPOSITE to what’s being implied by the study you quoted: giving additional testosterone to human scalp hair follicles in vitro caused those follicles to synthesize a lot more 5a-reductase type II mRNA, which would obviously generate even more DHT, not less! :slight_smile: