Vitamin D and Testosterone Study. Bad News for Hair Loss?

Supplements for hair loss
21

» » Nice post Natural, but it still doesn’t really make sense to me. That’s
» » really not scientific fact or study based. if that’s the case I know of
» the
» » world renowned TRT doctor, formerly steroid user and body builder, that
» » will attest to the notion that high levels of testosterone will convert
» to
» » dht causing hair loss if one is predisposed with mpb. Also, how does
» this
» » explain the fact that when I amongst MANY MANY other men predisposed
» with
» » mpb have hair loss accelarated when injecting testosterone? Most of the
» » time these men don’t even realise they are predisposed with male
» pattern
» » aldness until they start injecting test, which will acelarate their
» loss.
»
» Does increased testosterone = hair loss? The excerpt that I just provided
» is from a doctor, who cites a scientific study, which suggests that as we
» age, our estrogen levels elevate, raising DHT levels, leading to hair
» loss.
»
» I find it quite interesting that our testosterone levels decrease as we
» age, but we lose hair at a faster rate.
»
» Why?

I don’t know why, I wish I did. but I do know for a fact without a reasonable doubt in my mind, that those who inject testosterone and are predisposed with mpb accelerate their hair loss super fast. Now I should have noted that exogenous testosterone significantly increases estrogen as well, which is why an antiaromasin is used usually along side with it. That’s why I didn’t get the part where in your post he said subjects were injected with testosterone and nothing happened. test increases estrogen, and according to him estrogen causes hairloss.

22

» » » All other things being equal, of course, why on earth would
» » » higher levels of testosterone provide thicker scalp hair?
» »
» » Tocotrienols, vitamin D, and nettles are purported to increase
» » testosterone production:
» »
» » 1. http://www.tocotrienol.org/en/index/news/73.html
» » 2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20050857?
» » 3. Vitamins and Supplements Rooted in Science - Life Extension
» »
» » And they are used to treat hair loss:
» »
» » 1.
» »
» http://www.regrowhair.com/non-surgical-hair-loss-treatments/vitamin-e-for-hair-loss/
» » 2. ROLE OF THE VITAMIN D RECEPTOR IN HAIR FOLLICLE BIOLOGY - PMC
» » 3. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/25372.php
» » […]
» » :smiley:
»
» I asked you a very specific question, and all you did was go on and on
» about several things OTHER than what I actually asked you! Not by any
» stretch of the imagination did I ask about tocotrienols, vitamin D, or
» nettles; in fact, I was very careful to include some other important words
» before actually asking my question: all other things being equal…
» I’m shocked that you would try to jam so many other things in with the
» question of testosterone’s specific effect on scalp hair, and expect
» me to just blithely go along with it! :slight_smile:
»
» It’s obvious that those three substances you went on and on about can do a
» lot more than just (mildly?) raise testosterone levels, which is why they
» are so irrelevant in this context. Now once again, I ask you to address my
» specific question: ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, why would higher levels
» of an androgen like testosterone produce thicker scalp hair? You do know
» that it’s called androgenetic alopecia, don’t you? :stuck_out_tongue:

23

» Just measured flat-out, I think it’s clear that all androgens are bad for
» hair.
»
»
» There are a million different possible outcomes once you start throwing in
» factors like different people’s systems, changing the hormone balance, and
» possibly even different hormone senstivities in different areas of the
» scalp. (Maybe the hairlines are more hurt by Test while the crown is more
» hurt by DHT for example.)
»
»
» But once again Androgens = bad for (scalp) hair.

Cal, any studies you can post to back that up? I’ve been on the fence with this for the longest and would like to be one sided here.

24

»
» I asked you a very specific question, and all you did was go on and on
» about several things OTHER than what I actually asked you! Not by any
» stretch of the imagination did I ask about tocotrienols, vitamin D, or
» nettles; in fact, I was very careful to include some other important words
» before actually asking my question: all other things being equal…
» I’m shocked that you would try to jam so many other things in with the
» question of testosterone’s specific effect on scalp hair, and expect
» me to just blithely go along with it! :slight_smile:
»
» It’s obvious that those three substances you went on and on about can do a
» lot more than just (mildly?) raise testosterone levels, which is why they
» are so irrelevant in this context. Now once again, I ask you to address my
» specific question: ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, why would higher levels
» of an androgen like testosterone produce thicker scalp hair? You do know
» that it’s called androgenetic alopecia, don’t you? :stuck_out_tongue:

Hey Bryan,

I think you know some of my views by now - people are only just cottoning onto them now.

Anyway - have you had any more insights to the immune related aspects of hairloss and if in your opinion there are substances to help with this area topical wise?

Many Thanks
Pete

25

Truthfully I am not much for citing studies. Somebody else like Bryan might have something off the top of their head but I don’t.

26

» I don’t know why, I wish I did. but I do know for a fact without a
» reasonable doubt in my mind, that those who inject testosterone and are
» predisposed with mpb accelerate their hair loss super fast. Now I should
» have noted that exogenous testosterone significantly increases estrogen as
» well, which is why an antiaromasin is used usually along side with it.
» That’s why I didn’t get the part where in your post he said subjects were
» injected with testosterone and nothing happened. test increases estrogen,
» and according to him estrogen causes hairloss.

I don’t know. Maybe vitamins E (tocotrienols) and D(3) are capable of increasing testosterone and inhibiting the enzyme aromatase, responsible for converting testosterone into estrogen, which would be ideal, if this is case.

27

» Hey Bryan,
»
» I think you know some of my views by now - people are only just cottoning
» onto them now.
»
» Anyway - have you had any more insights to the immune related aspects of
» hairloss and if in your opinion there are substances to help with this area
» topical wise?
»
» Many Thanks
» Pete

The funny thing (in the most irritating sort of way) about you Peter is that a large percentage (94.6 %) of your posts are nothing more than vague dribble of something that you have read, but never experienced yourself.

This, interestingly (again, in the most irritating sort of way), does not keep you from presenting this information (about hair loss and hormones) as if you, yourself, thought it all up in that pretty little head of yours.

28

Oh, and Bryan, do tell us what you are presently using to fight this hair loss battle.

29

» Bryan i thought that was a given. More test = more conversion to dht. I
» was personally looking at it a little differently. Once finasteride (at
» higher doses) and dutasteride inhibit dht, can the rise in scalp test
» levels cause hair loss on its own? I’m sure you’ve read it plenty across
» the boards where for example El Dut is a firm believer of this. In fact
» this is the very reason people like to believe why dutasteride does not
» work fork for some people. Is this is an online forum brotology rumor or is
» there merit behind this belief? Although it makes sense I can’t find
» anything to support the claims, but I have come across text here and there
» (not studies) both coinciding with it and contradicting it. Which is it?

I’ve never bought into the theory that the use of a 5a-reductase inhibitor can be harmful to your hair because of the increase in testosterone that it can cause. The sharp decline in DHT is going to be FAR more important than any slight increase in testosterone! I have never ever seen any suggestion or even a vague hint in the medical literature in support of that theory.

30

» I don’t know. Perhaps it’s just a coincidence that these three
» supplements, all of which increase testosterone production, are
» also beneficial to the hair/scalp.

If they are beneficial to the hair/scalp at all, it’s almost CERTAINLY just a coincidence.

» You are implying that higher levels of testosterone would be detrimental.
» I disagree.
»
» And so does he:
»
»
» The Real Reason Why Men Lose Their Hair.
»
» By William Wong ND, PhD, Member World Sports Medicine Hall of Fame
»
» […]
» In vivo (in live people not in a test tube or on paper),
» DHT is mostly made from estrogen. And, estrogen levels in the body
» have to increase before DHT levels get critical enough to cost you
» your hair." […]

That “William Wong” character is a QUACK (notice those howlers of his I left in the quote above)! :slight_smile: That article of his has often been quoted on hairloss sites, usually by newbies who don’t know any better. You’re not helping your case any by quoting such amateurish rubbish!

31

» Does increased testosterone = hair loss?

I think any androgen can contribute to hair loss, and I’m certainly not excepting testosterone.

» The excerpt that I just provided
» is from a doctor, who cites a scientific study, which suggests that as we
» age, our estrogen levels elevate, raising DHT levels, leading to hair
» loss.

The excerpt you provided is from a QUACK, who doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about. DHT is not made from estrogen. Period. Full stop. Furthermore, estrogen actually helps SUPPRESS the production of DHT, it doesn’t raise it. It does that in at least two different and distinct ways: (1) estrogen inhibits the 5a-reductase enzyme; and (2) estrogen suppresses the synthesis of testosterone by providing negative feedback to the hypothalamic/pituitary/testicular (HPT) axis.

» I find it quite interesting that our testosterone levels decrease as we
» age, but we lose hair at a faster rate.
»
» Why?

That question has been asked many times by newbies on hairloss sites. Here’s the answer for you:

  1. The damage to hair from androgens is likely to be cumulative. It mounts up, as the years go by.

  2. Scalp hair follicles become more and more sensitive to androgens, with increasing age. A famous study done with stumtailed macaques showed that prior to puberty, their follicles weren’t affected at all by androgens (they used testosterone in the actual testing). But sometime AFTER puberty, their follicles were being damaged (suppressed) in the expected way, using the exact same test with testosterone. I think the very same thing happens with humans, too: the sensitivity to androgens continues to get worse and worse as we age. The gradual decline in testosterone (as we age) isn’t enough to offset that effect.

32

» Anyway - have you had any more insights to the immune related aspects of
» hairloss and if in your opinion there are substances to help with this area
» topical wise?

Pete, I’m still not sure to what extent (if any) that the immune response has anything to do with balding. Even though Dr. Proctor has said a bunch of times on alt.baldspot that miniaturized hair follicles look under a microscope as if they’re being “attacked” by the immune system, there is only exactly ONE time out of all the hundreds of studies I’ve read that immunity was ever even hinted at: that study in which human hair follicles were transplanted onto immune-deficient mice. They spent exactly ONE SENTENCE saying that maybe immunity had something to do with the results, and that was it.

33

» Oh, and Bryan, do tell us what you are presently using
» to fight this hair loss battle.

I’m not currently using anything at all; but when I do use anything, Dr. Proctor’s products are the foundation of my treatment: Proxiphen, Prox-N, and NANO shampoo. I’ve also experimented in the past with various topical concoctions of my own.

34

» » Anyway - have you had any more insights to the immune related aspects of
» » hairloss and if in your opinion there are substances to help with this
» area
» » topical wise?
»
» Pete, I’m still not sure to what extent (if any) that the immune response
» has anything to do with balding. Even though Dr. Proctor has said a bunch
» of times on alt.baldspot that miniaturized hair follicles look under a
» microscope as if they’re being “attacked” by the immune system, there is
» only exactly ONE time out of all the hundreds of studies I’ve read that
» immunity was ever even hinted at: that study in which human hair
» follicles were transplanted onto immune-deficient mice. They spent exactly
» ONE SENTENCE saying that maybe immunity had something to do with the
» results, and that was it.

Bryan,

I know he uses SOD is his formulas to help in this area.

I 'll let you know if I come across anything in this area - I know that Dr Yechiel has some interesting substances that he uses in his formulas. One of which is GABA.

Are you still in contact with Dr P ? Has he thought about updating his formulas?

Regards
Pete :slight_smile:

35

» » Oh, and Bryan, do tell us what you are presently using
» » to fight this hair loss battle.
»
» I’m not currently using anything at all; but when I do use anything,
» Dr. Proctor’s products are the foundation of my treatment: Proxiphen,
» Prox-N, and NANO shampoo. I’ve also experimented in the past with various
» topical concoctions of my own.

Can I ask the significance of nano shampoo? Other than speeding the growth of existing hairs, how does it fight hair loss?
And can it be used in conjuction with regular shampoo and niz2%?

36

The bottom line is this: The older men get, the more estrogen they have in their bodies.

If estrogen suppresses DHT (as you cut and pasted), then why is it that as men get older, their DHT levels rise as well. Why isn’t all of this estrogen floating around in men’s bodies “SUPPRESS[ing] the production of DHT.”

Older men have: A. Higher levels of estrogen; B. Higher levels of DHT; C. Lower levels of testosterone; D and less hair.

Do the math, Huckleberry. Men become more sensitive to estrogen, not testosterone, as we age. That is why inhibiting the enzyme aromatase, responsible for converting testosterone into estrogen, becomes a priority for those us who wish to maintain our hair.

37

Older men have: A. Higher levels of estrogen; B. Higher levels of DHT; C. Lower levels of testosterone; D and less hair.

Do the math, Huckleberry.

38

» The bottom line is this: The older men get, the more estrogen they have in
» their bodies.

Well, at least you got THAT one correct! :slight_smile:

» If estrogen suppresses DHT (as you cut and pasted)…

“Cut and pasted”? I didn’t “cut and paste” anything at all.

» …then why is it that as
» men get older, their DHT levels rise as well.

Their DHT levels apparently don’t rise as they get older. Didn’t you see that study somebody posted on HLH recently? It showed that the serum DHT levels in their test subjects (aging men) were gradually dropping.

» Why isn’t all of this estrogen floating around
» in men’s bodies “SUPPRESS[ing] the production of DHT.”

It almost certainly IS doing that.

» Older men have: A. Higher levels of estrogen; B. Higher levels of DHT; C.
» Lower levels of testosterone; D and less hair.

Wrong. Older men have: A. Higher estrogen; B. Lower DHT; C. Lower testosterone; D. Less hair. You were three out of four with all that, which isn’t really all that bad.

» Do the math, Huckleberry. Men become more sensitive to estrogen, not
» testosterone, as we age. That is why inhibiting the enzyme aromatase,
» responsible for converting testosterone into estrogen, becomes a priority
» for those us who wish to maintain our hair.

Oh, are you one of those kooks who believe that estrogen causes hair loss? Why am I not terribly surprised to hear that? :slight_smile:

39

» I 'll let you know if I come across anything in this area - I know that Dr
» Yechiel has some interesting substances that he uses in his formulas. One
» of which is GABA.

Do you really think GABA helps fight MPB?

» Are you still in contact with Dr P ? Has he thought about
» updating his formulas?

I haven’t talked to him in several years. He’s always updating his formulas, constantly tinkering with them! :slight_smile:

40

» » Why isn’t all of this estrogen floating around
» » in men’s bodies “SUPPRESS[ing] the production of DHT.”

» It almost certainly IS doing that.

Well, that does not make sense. If you believe that as men age, their estrogen levels rise, and that this estrogen suppresses DHT, then why do these older males have less hair? If, as you state, all of this DHT is being suppressed, what is causing these older men to lose hair?

According to you: Older men have: A. Higher estrogen; B. Lower DHT; C. Lower testosterone; D. Less hair. Well then, fine. Tell me, what pretell, is causing an increase in hair loss as these men age?

Again, when someone does the math, he is left with one conspicuous androgen: estrogen.

This study might interest you as well, as we come full circle to my original statement concerning the effect that an increase of testosterone has on our hair:

DHT levels may decline with testosterone administration

Giving testosterone to elderly men with subnormal levels of the androgen may decrease their plasma 5α-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels, European researchers have been surprised to discover.

Testosterone can be reduced to DHT inside the cell, and both androgens bind to the same receptor, explain L Gooren (Vrije University Medical Center, Amsterdam, The Netherlands) and colleagues.

However, DHT has a greater binding affinity and a four- to 10-fold greater potency than testosterone, and as a result “amplifies androgen action of testosterone more efficiently than testosterone itself.”

The team studied the impact of 15 months’ treatment with long-acting testosterone undecanoate in 32 men, and 9 months’ treatment with testosterone gel in 23 men.

The groups had mean ages of 61 and 60 years, respectively. Plasma DHT and testosterone levels were measured before and 9 months after testosterone administration, and also at 12 and 15 months in the testosterone undecanoate group.

Mean plasma DHT levels declined following testosterone treatment from 0.95 to 0.55 nmol/l. The decline was particularly apparent among men who, in spite of their subnormal plasma testosterone levels, had elevated plasma DHT.

DHT in all 21 men with initial levels above 0.60 nmol/l fell from a mean of 1.29 to 0.70 nmol/l.

Below this arbitrary baseline cutoff point, 13 DHT values rose and 21 fell. On average, there was a decline from 0.39 to 0.30 nmol/l.

The researchers note that DHT decreases leveled off after 12 months, and declines did not differ greatly between the treatment modalities over the first 9 months.

“It is reasonable to assume that the ratio DHT/testosterone is an expression of 5a-reductase activity in androgen target organs that strongly express 5a-reductase,” they report in the journal Andrologia.

“If so, the above observation suggests a reduction of 5α-reductase activity when plasma testosterone levels rise upon testosterone administration.”

My oh my, oh my

:wink: