One thing all people here should understand

Stem cell; cell based hair therapy
41

[quote]Question to Freddie555, Roger_That and others with similar objectives: say if we are to create a private forum and assuming that this very thread is the first topic being discussed in the private forum. What are some of the posters (based on their comments in this thread only) that you would not want to see participating in the private forum? Again, based on their comments in this very thread only, assuming every poster in this thread is new to the forum with no history of posting at all.

I just want to get a better sense of YOUR idea of a private forum to see if we are on the same page.[/quote]

Good question! I am not 100% sure I agree with the private forum idea, although I can definitely see the advantages in it.

Rather than banning certain posters from the initiation of such a private forum – which in legal terminology would be considered something like “prior restraint of free speech” – I would simply require that anyone who posts on the forum click through a “terms and conditions” page agreeing that they are there because they have a legitimate interest in hair loss research, and that they promise not to disrupt any discussion of such research, or to defame any doctor or researcher who presents research and information on the forum.

If a poster violates this policy even once, they are automatically banned from the forum permanently, no questions, no appeal possible. Zero tolerance for disruption. This includes any kind of behavior wherein a forum member attacks a researcher who is present on the forum directly, or impugns his or her ethics. This does not apply to posters speaking about a researcher in the “third person”, but specifically to any researcher who has come to present information on the forum (even if the researcher is not actually present at the exact day and time he/she is being attacked.) Posters would be able to question and criticize researchers, but ONLY in a polite manner. They may not viciously attack them.

There should also be some means by which it is impossible for banned IP addresses to re-register using another forum handle. This has been done time and time again by forum abusers and disruptors, like Iron_Man and his various friends and aliases. In fact, there should be multiple levels of security to defeat this, so that if a disruptor is able to breach one level, he is caught at the next level. Some of this should include the moderator or moderators visually monitoring posters’ behavior in the forum. Trusted volunteers can be recruited from the forum members to assist the main moderator.

I would recommend that these rules govern only a single forum on HairSite. The rest of the forums can be governed under the current, more libertarian, anything-goes posting rules. That has an appeal for a lot of people, including myself at times.

However, for serious discussions of controversial research, we need a forum which requires that participants pledge to be polite and respectful and allow the discussion to flourish, instead of disrupting and destroying discussions. On this more “serious” forum, any poster who behaves without proper decorum for scientists, doctors and researchers, is booted out permanently.

Such an “enhanced moderation” forum can serve as a safe haven for those who are seriously interested in cutting-edge hair loss research, free of disruptions, distractions, and saboteurs who have their own petty agendas.

42

:smiley: i m laughing already, i can totally see guys acting “polite” in the private forum and then come back here trashing each doctor like crazy like they normally do.

43

Why not make it a forum where the doctors get the admin rights and they can remove any comment they dont like and ban any visitor they don’t like ? It would be a dream come true for every sc*mmer out there. Pretty much what you guys want, right ? If you only say positive things, you’ll stay. If you’re too critical you’ll get the ban hammer.

44

<>

45

There has got to be some way of balancing legitimate criticism with the
understanding that the experimental process will yield failures far more
likely than it will success.

Absent of that, its the law of the jungle.

The animal serum story for instance sounds like a load of malarkey. But
repeat it enough times and soon it morphs into fact.

I do however believe Tom V when he says his results were poor. But lets be
real. How could he not have understood that he was enrolling in an experimental
procedure with uncertain results.

46

I would like to suggest a name for your new ‘private’ forum -
“$cammers Paradise” :cool:

47

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Freddie555[/postedby]
There has got to be some way of balancing legitimate criticism with the
understanding that the experimental process will yield failures far more
likely than it will success.

Absent of that, its the law of the jungle.

The animal serum story for instance sounds like a load of malarkey. But
repeat it enough times and soon it morphs into fact.

I do however believe Tom V when he says his results were poor. But lets be
real. How could he not have understood that he was enrolling in an experimental
procedure with uncertain results.[/quote]

How could he not of understood that there is uncertainty? That’s very simple to answer. Nigam said so repeatedly for the past two years. In 2012 he was claiming he could convert a NW6 to NW2 in 10 days and that he could provide patients with 10’s of thousands of grafts. He said those things, literally, word for word, on these forums. So why would Tom be worried about experimental injections when he has the good “doctors” word on it?
His quotes are still out there for all to see, you just have to open your eyes.

As for the new thread, please, have at it. Let all of the ignorati class get permission to it and they can reside in their echo chamber with no dissenting voices to disrupt their happy fairy tale. At the very least, the rest of us wouldn’t have to watch them walk head first into a buzzsaw.

<>

48

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Freddie555[/postedby]

The animal serum story for instance sounds like a load of malarkey. But
repeat it enough times and soon it morphs into fact.

[/quote]

Freddie,

There is a real easy way for Dr. Nigam to deal with this, ADDRESS the question. It is a legitimate question. It sounds like if this question is raised in the private forum and Dr. Nigam refuses to address the issue, it would be ok with you to just let it go.

I agree with you about other matters such as alleged photo manipulation. Unless there is proof that such is the case, it’s just pure speculation and posters should not repeat those allegations so casually. Burden of proof should be on the poster making the accusation.

But this one only requires a yes or no answer from Dr. Nigam. If the answer is yes, then explain why it is ok to use animal serum or confirm that it will never be used again due to safety reasons. That’s all.

49

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Freddie555[/postedby]
All that tabloid BS aside, I’m hoping the private forum comes into existence.

I don’t see any other way because every thread on cell therapy has been
hijacked and side tracked with a load of nonsense.

I do agree that many of Nigam’s problems are self-inflicted. He’s a lightning
rod for controversy. For example, claiming the ability to change a NW6 into
NW2 before the fact.

I keep reminding him not to make outlandish claims unless he has iron clad
proof to back it up. But his claims come fast & furious. I hope he learns
from all the negative attention he’s attracting. Inevitably if this keeps up,
even his supporters (like me) will give up the fight and let him be consumed
by the hoards of wild monkeys. Lets hope it does not come to that.

Anyway good to see Nigam is still alive & kicking. I’m hoping he posts
something on his cell therapy research. That picture of a petri dish full of
cell cultures posted by hairlife earlier was interesting.[/quote]

You shrug that off as tabloid? granted they report entertainment news but they look like a respectable newspaper. I am speechless if people are still going to Nigam after knowing that he is wanted by the Mumbai police. According to the report, it appears that he is a very arrogant man who thinks he is above the law, something about him refusing to report to high court or something like that.

50

[quote]How could he not of understood that there is uncertainty? That’s very
simple to answer.[/quote]

There is NO cure. How many ways can that be said.

ALL that you see on this board is experimental.

Nigam is purely experimental, his posts clearly show he is experimenting, he
has no fixed procedure and his results show a hit & miss effect.

He is no different than Gho who despite over a decade is also experimental.

Now is ANYONE here too stupid to understand this?

PLEASE leave the forum if you are not able to understand this. You are a
danger to yourself more so than anyone else if you are incapable of
understanding this.

We desperately need a push button activated entry into this forum where a
user indicates he fully understands this board and everything on it is purely
experimental. Even then I expect a great multitude of low IQ individuals to
click, enter and start up the same old whining about why a certain procedure
did not cure them.

51

[quote]Freddie,

There is a real easy way for Dr. Nigam to deal with this, ADDRESS the question. It is a legitimate question. It sounds like if this question is raised in the private forum and Dr. Nigam refuses to address the issue, it would be ok with you to just let it go.

I agree with you about other matters such as alleged photo manipulation. Unless there is proof that such is the case, it’s just pure speculation and posters should not repeat those allegations so casually. Burden of proof should be on the poster making the accusation.[/quote]

If the burden of proof is on the poster making the accusation, where is the
proof that he’s using animal serum? Merely making up sh&t does not
constitute proof.

Who’s going to show up here to keep defending themselves against individuals
taking pot shots on a daily basis. I certainly would not.

Half the people here are too dumb to understand they are in a forum where
there is no cure and only experiments. They want to be in here but they don’t
want any experimentation. Basically they’d want NOTHING to happen other than
putting in their daily dose of whining against any experiment.

It makes them feel good that they are bashing someone else because they have
nothing else going on in their lives.

52

Freddy, you seems to really think people here are dumb but you should maybe look at you in a mirror.

I really ask you to go 3 times as i did in india, and make your own experiment. Then come back to us ok ?

If I was not open minded, I would have traveled only once in india, not 3 times… I gave my best to nigam and I knew since beginning this was experimental but I thought he has at least something. I was wrong, now if I speak it was only for others people who was asking me “what about nigam”

Please go ahead and make your own experience ok ? dont speak about things you dont know

53

Tom, from your posts, it seems you either have almost no medical knowledge – you haven’t even done your “homework” or research – tu n’as pas fait ni les devoirs ni la recherche – or you don’t even really know or understand what procedures and techniques Dr. Nigam has performed on you. It appears that you consented to these procedures without even the most basic medical knowledge that would be respectable for a layman undergoing experimental medical procedures, and yet you come here and gripe and complain and trash Dr. Nigam.

Why are you always so vague about what Dr. Nigam has done to you? You use vague terms like “failed case”, “hair multiplication stuff”, “de novo”, “injection in my arm”, etc. WHAT EXACTLY HAS DR. NIGAM DONE AND DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE IMPLICATIONS OF ALL THESE PROCEDURES???

So you went into this like a completely passive, uniformed subject, didn’t you? That is completely your fault, don’t you understand?

If you simply got in a plane and flew to India without researching and understanding what procedures, experimental and otherwise, Dr. Nigam was to perform on you, and you cannot even adequately describe or explain these procedures to us now, then I have no sympathy for you. You are coming across as simply a whiner. You are personally dissatisfied with the outcome, yet you did not even understand the procedures which were performed when you underwent them. You did not even educate yourself in the most basic way to determine if they were right for you, or if there was a reasonable chance of success or satisfaction.

Since you cannot describe or explain any of it, we have to rely on Dr. Nigam to recount what he did, and therefore I have to trust his explanation, because at least he is able to be scientifically specific.

54

roger that, dont use french if its to speak in such a low one please. Thanks.

I know you are very limited but dont judge me like that. On what to you claim that I dont know what was performed on me ? Second my case was clearly explained in the related post and explained in détails by nigam itself.

Im not an MD, but I know what he did on me. At least the official part, rest is other story…

When I say injection in the arm, nothing is explained from him, what part dont you understand ? Personally I do think it’s an immunosupressor after speaking with someone from the team (but even them are not sure…). An immuno suppressor probably to avoid the side effect due to animal serum he used to culture 3d dp cells. The animal serum is normally centrifuged before injection but Nigam teams told me they didnt, they injected all the animal serum in the same time as dp cells. I asked 3 times to centrifuge before the second injection (i got 2d the first time and 3d the second), Im not sure they then did it for my second shot… Apparently a uk guy got same problem ?

Regarding his “HM stuff” this is a short terms to say what was already said: the use of gfs such as VEGF, SHH, FGF2, 7, 9, WNTs… etc… He dont care even the WNT not approved such as the histogen WNT7a wich is the only one tested in a clinic study (even if WNT7a is the less effective… note also that histogen get it from your own using an hypoxia environment, so the technique is not simple injecting rh-gfs in the manner which nigam seems to want to copy).

You, roger and jarjar just should go to his clinic and let your life in his ends. He can maybe try to inject you some pluripotent stem cells, who know ? And who care its not expensive, you will just have another DNA in you. Do it and stop to say bullsht as the stupid guy you are.

55

Hairsite moderator,
I just read your question, raised by ,i think dawkins…

When cells are cultured in the lab,one uses basal medium of his choice,and a serum free media TO PROVIDE GROWTH FACTORS AND NUTRIENTS.
Our lab use, serum free media from companies like promocell etc.

If you read a lot of research papers into culturing of cells ,many prefer FBS that is foetal bovine serum,as it is rich in growth factors and nutrients.

In aderans inclusion criteria they test whether the volunteer is allergic to foetal bovine serum or not.

No one injects any serum or media into the scalp,it has no purpose,whether FBS or serum free media ,everything is thoroughly washed before final solution of stemcells is prepared and injected.

ACELL WHICH IS LEGAL TO USE IN USA AND FEW OTHER COUNTIES IS MADE FROM BASAL MEMBRANE OF URINARY BLADDER OF PORCINE,BUT WE USE EXTRACELLULAR MATRIX CALLED COLLAGEN (Collagen - Wikipedia)…
YOU CAN READ ANY PUBLISHED PAPER RELATED TO ISOLATION AND CULTURING OF ADULT STEMCELLS…you will understand whatever is used in labs, like various enzymes, culture media ,supplemental media etc…are thoroughly washed at the end to create a solution of pure stemcells…
read and let me know if you find any paper which says, inject an x or y enzyme or serum media and you will have any advantage to activate or grow hair…it is of no use to injectuch thing.

logically one should think, whether a particular doubt, regarding a use of a particular product,has any role to improve the efficacy,in this case growth of hair…the answer is no…!!!
Regarding arms,dear friends,we always insert an intravenous line,for any emergency…normally iv line is used to give antibiotic to prevent infection.
Dr mwamba was witness to everything at my clinic and lab…he has pictures of each and every product,anyone can check from him…rather than waste time on rumours…

i have productive news to share, but whenever i open the forum…i have to answer rumours and baseless allegations.
i will speak about ethics, experimental treatments, clinical trial volunteer selection(free treatment as part of trial),a new experiment i did first time in he world on my own arm ,like my guru jahoda…my forthcoming oral presentation at 8th world congress on hair research,few more before after pics(which i am always scared to post),how i have partially seem to have solved the issue of limited number of cells while culturing epithelial bulge stemcells…please follow what freddie says…with individuals consent,these are all experimental protocols…just because few people do not like it…i roger ,freddie … will not stop discussing or doing it…science evolves with experimentation.
DR MWAMBA HAS ALREADY MENTIONED IN SOME OTHER FORUM,( I READ SOME POSTER MENTIONING0…THAT HIS OWN CLINIC STAFF HAS VIRTUALLY NO WHITE DOT AT THE DONOR…WHERE THE THEORY OF SCARLESS FUE… WAS TESTED BY HIM ,ON HIS OWN STAFF, WHEN HE WAS IN MUMBAI…

Journey starts somewhere and ends somewhere…but in between there are many pathways…
Einstien failed 1000 times before he found tungston…and world saw the light.

Today’s news in Times of India “A Mumbai born doctor could well revolutionize the world of organ transplants . Dr Hemant Thatte , a senior cardiovascular surgeon at Harvard University , a 21 - chemical solution that could preserve a donated organ for up to a week before transplant” [/b]

Friends and critics I am one among you , no need to hype me or talk about me ,it is better if we focus on techniques,improving on the protocols available in the published works and try to work as a team and encourage each other.

Dr. Nigam,the person, is not important .But whatever experience I have had from different protocols , both successful and failed , they will be useful to me , to you and to the future researchers .Whatever I am doing would not have been possible without inputs from intellectual forum members , great works of hair research scientists , all the past published works from known and unknown scientists …
critics you have full right not to believe what I say, till there is concrete proof , but I also have a right to be partially excited what i see…

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Freddie555[/postedby]

The animal serum story for instance sounds like a load of malarkey. But
repeat it enough times and soon it morphs into fact.

[postedby]Originally Posted by HairSite[/postedby]

Freddie,

There is a real easy way for Dr. Nigam to deal with this, ADDRESS the question. It is a legitimate question. It sounds like if this question is raised in the private forum and Dr. Nigam refuses to address the issue, it would be ok with you to just let it go.

I agree with you about other matters such as alleged photo manipulation. Unless there is proof that such is the case, it’s just pure speculation and posters should not repeat those allegations so casually. Burden of proof should be on the poster making the accusation.

But this one only requires a yes or no answer from Dr. Nigam. If the answer is yes, then explain why it is ok to use animal serum or confirm that it will never be used again due to safety reasons. That’s all.[/quote]
56

Dr Nigam, you just forgot to confirm you was not using a serum free media when I was there, and it seems on someone else too. I’m glad you use it now, but when I was there, you didnt centrifuged it (at the least the first time as you confirmed me), thats my concern.

Now knowing that, what evidence do we have that you will not do a similar thing again ? In France such thing would be a definite ban forever from a medical order. You should provide more transparency i think and indeed focus on the purpose.

PS: regarding the injection in the arm i dont speak about the normal intravenous emergency one, I clearly mean a seringue injection.

57

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Tom Vercetti[/postedby]
When I say injection in the arm, nothing is explained from him, what part dont you understand ? Personally I do think it’s an immunosupressor after speaking with someone from the team (but even them are not sure…). An immuno suppressor probably to avoid the side effect due to animal serum he used to culture 3d dp cells. The animal serum is normally centrifuged before injection but Nigam teams told me they didnt, they injected all the animal serum in the same time as dp cells. I asked 3 times to centrifuge before the second injection (i got 2d the first time and 3d the second), Im not sure they then did it for my second shot… Apparently a uk guy got same problem ?
[/quote]

Thanks for confirming that about the Animal serum, Tom. Yes I heard from a UK guy who said Nigam did the same to him. It’s simply unbelievable he injected not only animal grade serum but also did NOT centrifuge the cells !! In any civilized country, such ‘doctor’ would not only be banned from ever practicing his job again, but would go to prison for a long time. What if people got cancer ? That’s a VERY real possibility if you do things like that.

58

[quote]
No one injects any serum or media into the scalp,it has no purpose,whether FBS or serum free media ,everything is thoroughly washed before final solution of stemcells is prepared and injected.[/quote]

Tom, are you saying this was not true in your case?

59

Of course Walrus, and I sign. This was actually my main concern after I learned i got injected full serum the first time for my 2d dp cells shot.

Also note nigam dont clearly deny he did it… he rather speak at a the present time. Im sure he says the truth that now he changed his protocol since I disputed him regarding that and asked serum free media.

My second shot in front of me he asked by phone to the lab guy to centrifuge the animal serum. Centrifuge will not give you a pure 100% free animal serum injected, but better than nothing… small amount are also injected for vaccin as far as i know.

My 2 culture was started in a serum animal bovin, so he couldnt use serum free at this time since cells was already in culture.

The injection in the arm was to avoid strong side effect using an immuno suppressor according to a member of his team. Since many patients got strong sickness following injection.

This is why I ask roger that and others brainwhashed to go nigam and do their own experience. Will see if they keep their same mind after that

60

[quote]How could he not of understood that there is uncertainty? That’s very
simple to answer.

[postedby]Originally Posted by Freddie555[/postedby]

There is NO cure. How many ways can that be said.

ALL that you see on this board is experimental.

Nigam is purely experimental, his posts clearly show he is experimenting, he
has no fixed procedure and his results show a hit & miss effect.

He is no different than Gho who despite over a decade is also experimental.

Now is ANYONE here too stupid to understand this?

PLEASE leave the forum if you are not able to understand this. You are a
danger to yourself more so than anyone else if you are incapable of
understanding this.

We desperately need a push button activated entry into this forum where a
user indicates he fully understands this board and everything on it is purely
experimental. Even then I expect a great multitude of low IQ individuals to
click, enter and start up the same old whining about why a certain procedure
did not cure them.[/quote]

Did you not read or comprehend the part where i explicitly stated that Nigam has gone out of his way to say that his technique is ALREADY WORKING and able to provide results? Lets cover this again, using Nigam’s own words. Please read very carefully…

Nigam quote: “HAIRDOUBLING with stemcells with scalp or body or beard hair wherein you can convert nw7 to nw2 in max 10 days.”

Nigam quote YES DEAR I AM DR NIGAM MYSELF…WORKING FOR MY OWN PASSION…STEMCELL HAIR MULTIPLICATION…YES TO UR SURPRISE IN THIS AMOUNT U CAN CHOOSE MAXIMUM NUMBER OF STEMCELL TWO STAGE THERAPY WHICH SHOULD GIVE U APPOXIMATELY 50OOO + HAIRFOLLICLES NEW OR ACTIVATED VILLLOUS OR THINNED OUT HAIR…AND YES IF U WANT TO GO FOR TRADITIONAL FUE OR FUT WE OFFER MAXIMUM POSSIBLE GRAFTS AS PER UR DONOR AREA AT THE SAME COST…! I WILL PUT SOME MORE PICS NEXT WEEK.

Nigam quote: My prediction is either by myself or by 6 to 7 other research labs across the globe upto 90% cure of baldness would be available to MPB by 2017 (Although Dr. Roland Lauster had predicted in 2010 cure for MPB by 2015, today with my partial cure of baldness my friend Dr. Roland’s prediction is proving to be partially true)".

Are you still with me Freddie? Did you read those words and make the proper associations to deduce their meanings and what their implications are?

Nigam used those words and those numbers to attract people to his clinic. Do you think, even for one second, that those forum members who went to his clinic and were treated by him thought they were undergoing something completely unproven and “experimental”? That there was a chance their donor would be wrecked and have zero regrowth? No, Nigam characterized his technique as already working to the point that he can accomplish what he said in the quotes above and that he was continuing to work on it to FURTHER improve it from the success he’s already had. This is a not so subtle distinction that, for whatever reason, you seem to be unable to make.

Do you think these people who went to him coughed up many thousands of dollars, took time off from work, flew across the planet all for a procedure that was nothing more than a shot in the dark made in the name of science? And if your answer to those questions are “yes, they did know this”, then please reconcile that with their anger and disappointment which they’ve expressed here in the forums once they knew their results.

The lack of critical thinking skills that are on display in these forums is gobsmacking.