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One thing all people here should understand


#1

One thing all people on this board have to understand is that ALL treatments
here are purely experimental.

If you have gripes about people or methods who are into experimental
stuff, please DON’T come to this forum. Stay out of it. Go to some
other forum where there is no experimentation and all you hear about is the 2
FDA approved treatments 24x7.

This forum is for experimenters and it is risky to anyone who does not
understand this. NOTHING here is proven to work. History shows that there’s
a high probability that nothing will work.

There isn’t any cure coming from the FDA for the next 10 years. The only
thing we have is pure experimentation which is what this forum is about.

With that said, I hope Nigam and others return to this board to post as I
want to hear about cell therapy experiments - whether they work or not. I’d
like to bounce around ideas of what I think might be worth a try in the petri
dish. I’m sure others like roger_that would also like to do the same.

If many dont’ agree with what I’ve said, then can we create a private invite-only
forum on this board. One which is free of monkeys running through every thread
saying “I told you so”. Anyone can say I told you so because 99.9% of
experiments will not pan out. We are hoping to run into the 0.1% by theoretical
guesswork and pure luck.


#2

Well Freddie, another thing people need to understand is if a doctor says something works then they need to show decent documented evidence of that and if they don’t can expect to be seriously questioned.
If they make claims that can clearly be shown not to be true then they MUST be held accountable for their actions - and must be called out so that others are not duped into paying for a $cam.

Anybody who cannot accept that shouldn’t come on these boards either.
Blind acceptance won’t wash…


#3

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Freddie555[/postedby]
One thing all people on this board have to understand is that ALL treatments
here are purely experimental.

If you have gripes about people or methods who are into experimental
stuff, please DON’T come to this forum. Stay out of it. Go to some
other forum where there is no experimentation and all you hear about is the 2
FDA approved treatments 24x7.

This forum is for experimenters and it is risky to anyone who does not
understand this. NOTHING here is proven to work. History shows that there’s
a high probability that nothing will work.

There isn’t any cure coming from the FDA for the next 10 years. The only
thing we have is pure experimentation which is what this forum is about.

With that said, I hope Nigam and others return to this board to post as I
want to hear about cell therapy experiments - whether they work or not. I’d
like to bounce around ideas of what I think might be worth a try in the petri
dish. I’m sure others like roger_that would also like to do the same.

If many dont’ agree with what I’ve said, then can we create a private invite-only
forum on this board. One which is free of monkeys running through every thread
saying “I told you so”. Anyone can say I told you so because 99.9% of
experiments will not pan out. We are hoping to run into the 0.1% by theoretical
guesswork and pure luck.[/quote]

I totally agree. A private invite-only board here would be very useful, with users invited only upon promising not to disparage doctors and to have no other agenda but to learn and make constructive contributions.


#4

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Skywalker[/postedby]
Well Freddie, another thing people need to understand is if a doctor says something works then they need to show decent documented evidence of that and if they don’t can expect to be seriously questioned.
If they make claims that can clearly be shown not to be true then they MUST be held accountable for their actions - and must be called out so that others are not duped into paying for a $cam.

Anybody who cannot accept that shouldn’t come on these boards either.
Blind acceptance won’t wash…[/quote]

+1000 the level of ignorance and desperation on these boards is astounding and left unchecked would allow any charlatan swindler of low character come in here and recruit young men for their unproven, dangerous and destructive procedures.


#5

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Freddie555[/postedby]
One thing all people on this board have to understand is that ALL treatments
here are purely experimental.

If you have gripes about people or methods who are into experimental
stuff, please DON’T come to this forum. Stay out of it. Go to some
other forum where there is no experimentation and all you hear about is the 2
FDA approved treatments 24x7.

This forum is for experimenters and it is risky to anyone who does not
understand this. NOTHING here is proven to work. History shows that there’s
a high probability that nothing will work.

There isn’t any cure coming from the FDA for the next 10 years. The only
thing we have is pure experimentation which is what this forum is about.

With that said, I hope Nigam and others return to this board to post as I
want to hear about cell therapy experiments - whether they work or not. I’d
like to bounce around ideas of what I think might be worth a try in the petri
dish. I’m sure others like roger_that would also like to do the same.

If many dont’ agree with what I’ve said, then can we create a private invite-only
forum on this board. One which is free of monkeys running through every thread
saying “I told you so”. Anyone can say I told you so because 99.9% of
experiments will not pan out. We are hoping to run into the 0.1% by theoretical
guesswork and pure luck.[/quote]

i agree there should be no personal attacks whatsoever but people should be allowed to question the doctor and hold him accountable even for simple things like no updates on the test patients. However you seem to think even something like that is unacceptable behavior. you dont run around calling people monkey simply bacause we want to know what happened to a particular test patient.


#6

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Freddie555[/postedby]
One thing all people on this board have to understand is that ALL treatments
here are purely experimental.

If you have gripes about people or methods who are into experimental
stuff, please DON’T come to this forum. Stay out of it. Go to some
other forum where there is no experimentation and all you hear about is the 2
FDA approved treatments 24x7.

This forum is for experimenters and it is risky to anyone who does not
understand this. NOTHING here is proven to work. History shows that there’s
a high probability that nothing will work.

There isn’t any cure coming from the FDA for the next 10 years. The only
thing we have is pure experimentation which is what this forum is about.

With that said, I hope Nigam and others return to this board to post as I
want to hear about cell therapy experiments - whether they work or not. I’d
like to bounce around ideas of what I think might be worth a try in the petri
dish. I’m sure others like roger_that would also like to do the same.

If many dont’ agree with what I’ve said, then can we create a private invite-only
forum on this board. One which is free of monkeys running through every thread
saying “I told you so”. Anyone can say I told you so because 99.9% of
experiments will not pan out. We are hoping to run into the 0.1% by theoretical
guesswork and pure luck.[/quote]

I totally agree!!!


#7

You don’t have a problem with Nigam charging people thousands of dollars for completely ineffective treatments? Or seriously jeopardizing patients’ health by injecting them with unproven compounds and chemicals?

That isn’t experimentation. That’s taking advantage of desperate hair loss sufferers.

Thankfully, there’s still some logical posters on here like, Skywalker and Mr. Z, otherwise this place would turn into a giant joke. If you want to do that Freddie, I’d encourage you, roger_that and Nigam to form your own forum and spare the rest.


#8

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by JJJ Jr. S[/postedby]
You don’t have a problem with Nigam charging people thousands of dollars for completely ineffective treatments? Or seriously jeopardizing patients’ health by injecting them with unproven compounds and chemicals?

That isn’t experimentation. [/quote]

That is experimentation. Anyone who goes through a stem cell or hair
multiplication procedure with Nigam or Gho or Mwamba or whomever had
better have enough brains to understand it is pure experimentation and
nothing else.

Again, if you DON’T want experimentation, don’t get the treatment. If you
are against experimentation, DO NOT come to this forum because everything
here is pure experimentation. There is no reason for you to be here because
your only purpose here is to have us all sit around and do nothing till
the day we die.

I hope we do have our own private forum keeping out those who can’t seem to
understand the above. There should be a button activated disclaimer when
you enter that forum that you have enough sense to understand all of the
above. If you don’t understand it, you are a danger unto yourself.

The above does not mean I don’t have gripes about Nigam and his habit of
making claims where the evidence doesn’t live up - experimental though he may
be. But that’s for another thread or hopefully another forum.


#9

If it is truly experimentation then the participating client should be paid…not the other way around.


#10

Well Freddie I agree with you that having your own invite-only private forum that you set up yourself is the way to go for you - because I don’t agree that all of the doctors you mention are claiming they are just experimenting - often they claim hard results for parts of their work that are to put it mildly questionable.


#11

[quote]That is experimentation. Anyone who goes through a stem cell or hair
multiplication procedure with Nigam or Gho or Mwamba or whomever had
better have enough brains to understand it is pure experimentation and
nothing else.

Again, if you DON’T want experimentation, don’t get the treatment. If you
are against experimentation, DO NOT come to this forum because everything
here is pure experimentation. There is no reason for you to be here because
your only purpose here is to have us all sit around and do nothing till
the day we die. [/quote]

+1


#12

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by sonnyL[/postedby]
If it is truly experimentation then the participating client should be paid…not the other way around. [/quote]

This. Participants often get paid in legitimate trials. Since, after all, they are the ones putting their health on the line.


#13

Of course we know that Dr. Nigam is not engaged in “legitimate”, government sponsored clinical trials. I don’t think he ever claimed this. India doesn’t currently require this kind of experimentation to be done within expensive, time-consuming government approved clinical trials. That is Dr. Nigam’s whole advantage. He can do things that are impossible in the US and Europe, without tens of millions of dollars and 10 years of time to wait for results to be analyzed by a bureaucracy.


#14

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]
Of course we know that Dr. Nigam is not engaged in “legitimate”, government sponsored clinical trials. I don’t think he ever claimed this. India doesn’t currently require this kind of experimentation to be done within expensive, time-consuming government approved clinical trials. That is Dr. Nigam’s whole advantage. He can do things that are impossible in the US and Europe, without tens of millions of dollars and 10 years of time to wait for results to be analyzed by a bureaucracy.[/quote]

Not if it is at the cost of scientific rigour. Treating ‘patients’ rather than having test ‘subjects’ in a trail leads to the ‘kitchen sink’ approach you address in your other recent thread, whereby experimental treatments are not effectively controlled.


#15

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]
Of course we know that Dr. Nigam is not engaged in “legitimate”, government sponsored clinical trials. I don’t think he ever claimed this. India doesn’t currently require this kind of experimentation to be done within expensive, time-consuming government approved clinical trials. That is Dr. Nigam’s whole advantage. He can do things that are impossible in the US and Europe, without tens of millions of dollars and 10 years of time to wait for results to be analyzed by a bureaucracy.

[postedby]Originally Posted by walrus[/postedby]

Not if it is at the cost of scientific rigour. Treating ‘patients’ rather than having test ‘subjects’ in a trail leads to the ‘k*tchen sink’ approach you address in your other recent thread, whereby experimental treatments are not effectively controlled.

Edit: why is k*itchen a forbidden word on this forum?[/quote]

Yes, I totally agree with you there, walrus. I recognize that Dr. Nigam has been taking the “k*tchen sink” approach, and that is a big downside to his research. I wish he’d stop that, or use it only in the rare circumstances where it might be warranted.

The word "ktchen" has been banned from this forum because of people spamming the forum with ads for custom ktchen installations in the North of England, which appear frequently here.


#16

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by sonnyL[/postedby]
If it is truly experimentation then the participating client should be paid…not the other way around.

[postedby]Originally Posted by walrus[/postedby]

This. Participants often get paid in legitimate trials. Since, after all, they are the ones putting their health on the line.[/quote]

Personally I have no problem with this, it is an agreement between the participants and the doctor, the participants can always say no if they don’t want to pay.


#17

If patients are being charged for “experimental” treatments then you can be sure there will people questioning the authenticity of the treatments and be scrutinized. You can’t scream foul and call people monkeys,and then be silent and approve when patients scalps are butchered and their health are at stake…and then saying it’s all just experimental. It’s so wrong!


#18

I don’t agree that anything should be paid to the person undergoing the experimental treatment. It will only attract desperately poor people looking for some quick cash who don’t understand what they are getting themselves into.

By the same yardstick, nobody should be charged beyond material cost either until something elementary has at least been proven. All this can be discussed but not in a forum with monkeys running wild.

Experimental treatments should all be voluntary with the person having sufficient intelligence to understand he is taking on serious risk with the likelyhood of success small and the likelyhood of failure or catastrophic failure high.


#19

Is everyone who disagrees with you a ‘monkey’?

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Freddie555[/postedby]

Experimental treatments should all be voluntary with the person having sufficient intelligence to understand he is taking on serious risk with the likelyhood of success small and the likelyhood of failure or catastrophic failure high.[/quote]

The problem is, this is not exactly how things have been portrayed thus far.


#20

[quote]Experimental treatments should all be voluntary with the person having sufficient intelligence to understand he is taking on serious risk with the likelyhood of success small and the likelyhood of failure or catastrophic failure high.

The problem is, this is not exactly how things have been portrayed thus far.[/quote]

I am a realist. If I thought there was any realistic chance of Dr. Nigam reversing my hairloss back to a NW 2, I’d get on a plane right now for India and visit Dr. Nigam. I haven’t seen any kind of photos or indisputable evidence from Dr. Nigam thus far that would warrant that decision. But I’m still very, very interested in his research work, I respect him for it, and I appreciate the fact that he’s doing it.

The trouble is that on these forums there are a lot of impressionable people who literally will fly around the world to a succession of HT clinics, whatever doctor is offering the latest technique (proven or not), and when they inevitably become disappointed, they jump on the forums and condemn those doctors as charlatans who “butchered” their scalps, with their evil new experimental techniques. And then a bunch of morons on the forums pile on the bandwagon supporting these people, condemning all experimental procedures and new ideas as fr@ud, and the doctors as quacks and butchers.

I have NO sympathy for these people. They are adults and they assumed the risk. They read and saw everything, all the photos, all the evidence, that was available to everyone else. They were privy to all the debates, all the exact same information we all saw. Yet they jumped head first into the unknown.

I am sick and tired of these people being held up regularly as “poster children” for doctors like Nigam, Gho, etc. destroying their lives.

Truth is, you take the exact same risks with any HT surgeon. If you go to any HT surgeon in the USA, you have the same risks of your scalp being mangled or disfigured, losing all your usable donor hair, getting permanent, unsightly scars, being a poor responder and having the procedure fail. It’s a consequence that comes with the territory.

At least the cell therapies that Dr. Nigam is researching, if used alone WITHOUT any HT surgery, have a possibility down the road of making slicing and dicing the scalp obsolete. Let’s let him do his work without defaming him and lynching him regularly on the internet.

How many American doctors do you see doing this kind of research? Last time I checked, it was none. And oh, by the way, it’s illegal in America. You see, the FDA changed one word in a regulation, 21 CFR 1271, back in 2006, officially making it illegal for doctors to inject patients’ own cells back into them, without going through a long, expensive FDA approval process. That’s why you see no doctors doing this right now. Somehow, PRP was exempted from this regulation, because it’s a blood product and blood is removed and put back into patients all the time. But any other type of cell – nope. It violates FDA regulations.

There are many, many fast-talking, hard-sell charlatans in the US hair transplant industry, who hawk phony cures (like PRP, Acell, etc.), new procedures which are almost as bad as old procedures, etc.

They may not all be putting photoshopped pictures on their websites, but India is a bit behind the times. Dr. Anjali Shere of Mumbai, who until very recently (about 1 month ago) had a website full of the most outrageously photoshopped pictures anyone’s ever seen, was the one condemning Dr. Nigam for (1) not being a real doctor; (2) stealing her photos (I have to laugh at that one) and (3) lying to and cheating patients. Meanwhile she says on her website that “Dr Anjali Shere provide the best hair transplant in Mumbai”.

The cosmetic surgery “industry” in India is extremely competitive and cutthroat. Putting photoshopped photos on websites is par for the course, it’s standard operating procedure. If you don’t do it there, there’s something wrong with you. These guys hire the same website developers (there are hundreds to choose from, but they all work the same way), who circulate stock “patient photos”, often doctored by the web developers themselves, because they know what the doctors want. And because it’s the norm, the doctors don’t object. Since everyone is doing it, each doctor feels he must go along with the pack or lose patients. Regulation is weak, oversight by the medical boards is almost nonexistent. India is a country of over 1 billion people (more than 3 Americas) and it’s generally a poor country outside the big cities. Unless lots of people are dying outright from medical negligence, government and medical boards don’t have a lot of time or money to go around policing each and every infraction by a doctor.

Polished, sophisticated American-style sc@mming, where the sc@mmer is very aware of what patients know and fine-tunes his sc@m to evade detection, has largely not reached India yet. American HT docs use double-talk which technically isn’t quite a lie, but is far from the truth. They use patient before-and-after photos or other evidence in a much more sophisticated way, appearing to be legit while not disclosing that the patients are also on drug therapy, by using cherry-picked photos, or even by not showing photos at all, or the same 5 photos from 10 year ago, claiming that they can’t show more for legal reasons, and giving such a slick psychologically-tuned pitch that prospective patients are overwhelmed by the BS and sold without even seeing any convincing evidence. American doctors use every trick in the book. Indian HT docs are about 20-25 years behind their American colleagues in this regard.