About Pilox

Stem cell; cell based hair therapy
41

i don’t know what to think about the clinical trials.
as it is a stimulating device without any harmful drugs, it’s not that important to get FDA and other medical institutes involved, in my opinion at least.
they have done a kind of mini trials (over 200 patients), over the last 5 years, i guess, and tried to improve the device with each hardware / protocol revision. as results can be reached relatively fast with this device, they were in a good position to tune their device and test the effects within a few months. no need to wait years with clinical trials to make a conclusion.

i think, when the first consumer version will come out next year, yoram and his colleagues will definitely get more user experience and maybe also do some further bigger trials (maybe >1000 patients). as safety is no concern for this device, the only thing is to prove the efficiency. but as results can be reached relatively fast with this treatment, it is not required to waste years for clinical trials.
if good results already can be reached, it’s better to release the device now than wait 5 more years.

42

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Magneto_Amarendo[/postedby]
i don’t know what to think about the clinical trials.
as it is a stimulating device without any harmful drugs, it’s not that important to get FDA and other medical institutes involved, in my opinion at least.
they have done a kind of mini trials (over 200 patients), over the last 5 years, i guess, and tried to improve the device with each hardware / protocol revision. as results can be reached relatively fast with this device, they were in a good position to tune their device and test the effects within a few months. no need to wait years with clinical trials to make a conclusion.

i think, when the first consumer version will come out next year, yoram and his colleagues will definitely get more user experience and maybe also do some further bigger trials (maybe >1000 patients). as safety is no concern for this device, the only thing is to prove the efficiency. but as results can be reached relatively fast with this treatment, it is not required to waste years for clinical trials.
if good results already can be rea ched, it’s better to release the device now than wait 5 more years.[/quote]

I’m not as much concerned with clinical trials as a means of gathering data at this point, as I am concerned with Pilogics complying with legal requirements for clinical trials, if such trials are required.

If they are required and they submit to official clinical trials under government oversight, certainly good data about safety and efficacy will come out and be available to all. In fact, that would be the only kind of data we in the general public could really trust, right? Data collected under officially-authorized clinical trials, rather than just taking Pilogics’ word for it.

43

i don’t think that they are not aware of the safety aspect and laws and so on.
they are high-tech guys, with the safety aspect always in their mind. safety is crucial when bringing a device to market, not only for a medical device. almost every developer or engineer is faced with safety concerns from the beginning. it can be a show stopper in some cases, so be sure that the technion guys have an eye on that.

i’m also curious about the piercing effect. i don’t think there is classical wounding with needles. no mechanical needles at all.
it’s a combo of iontophoresis and other electro stimulation maybe. there are 2 electrodes involved, for sure (according to patent). i could also imagine that the wounding effect is caused by a kind of micro-cracks resulting from the current flow. but maybe there is no wounding effect at all, but some general electro-stimulation.
i was always wondering why nobody has tried applying electricity (a voltage of maybe 40v or so) onto the scalp. current flow through the scalp definitely could interact with the skin tissue and the follicles.
maybe pilox is the first device which does something in that direction.

44

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Magneto_Amarendo[/postedby]
i don’t think that they are not aware of the safety aspect and laws and so on.
they are high-tech guys, with the safety aspect always in their mind. safety is crucial when bringing a device to market, not only for a medical device. almost every developer or engineer is faced with safety concerns from the beginning. it can be a show stopper in some cases, so be sure that the technion guys have an eye on that.

i’m also curious about the piercing effect. i don’t think there is classical wounding with needles. no mechanical needles at all.
it’s a combo of iontophoresis and other electro stimulation maybe. there are 2 electrodes involved, for sure (according to patent). i could also imagine that the wounding effect is caused by a kind of micro-cracks resulting from the current flow. but maybe there is no wounding effect at all, but some general electro-stimulation.
i was always wondering why nobody has tried applying electricity (a voltage of maybe 40v or so) onto the scalp. current flow through the scalp definitely could interact with the skin tissue and the follicles.
maybe pilox is the first device which does something in that direction.[/quote]

That’s all great, but for something like that, which puts two electrodes on the skin and runs an electrical current through it, it’s not good enough for them to say, “we’re tech guys, we’re very aware and concerned about safety.”

You have to submit your product to years of formal clinical testing for safety and efficacy. There is no getting around this fact.

So I don’t see how, given the fact that they’re not in official, government-authorized clinical trials right now, they will be selling this product worldwide within a year. To me it’s just impossible for them to do that legally.

Regarding iontophoresis and all that, it’s wonderful, but again, it doesn’t all jive. If I apply two electrical leads to your skin, a cathode and an anode, and run an electrical current through it, in my humble opinion that alone will not grow hair.

How do I know this? I know it because it’s such a simple and relatively low-tech idea, it’s been bound to have been tried a thousand times before. After all, men have been balding throughout history and electricity has been in use for over 100 years. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put these two things together and devise something like this.

To me, the only way you go qualitatively beyond that, is to run the electrical current through the skin while also simultaneously wounding the skin and/or using drugs or chemicals, and those things would REQUIRE MANDATORY GOVERNMENT-AUTHORIZATION FOR CLINICAL TRIALS, period.

45

to be honest, i thought about electro stimulation on the scalp many times (i am an electronics engineer). i also thought of building a test device with 2 electrodes, to apply a voltage to the scalp and get some current flow through the follicles. it’s totally safe when built correctly. current will only flow between the two electrodes, so there is no danger to the scalp, brain or heart. just some stimulation of the scalp tissue.
however, there is no scientific background for that, and also not a hint which frequencies for stimulation would be best. so there are endless combinations to try for efficiency.
maybe the technion guys are more experienced and that biological field and have cracked the code how to do that right.
on the other side, i might be wrong and pilox has no electro stimulation at all.

however, i think, there is a lot of potential when using electricity on the scalp. if pilox turns out to be snakeoil, i will try to build a simple device to apply a voltage on the scalp and try different protocols. maybe i’m lucky with that, as crazy as it sounds :slight_smile:

46

you’re probably right about the wounding.
if the device really does some wounding in any way, then safety is a critical factor and has to be cleared/approved somehow.
however, the technion guys are professional enough to not forget about all required safety tasks to sell the device.

regarding electricity in general: if you assure (by design, and protection circuit), that the applied voltage stays below a certain limit (let’s say 40volts) and is also earth-free, which means galvanically isolated, then there is no possibility for a dangerous current flow. you can even increase the voltage in theory to allow higher current flow, but then you have to assure somehow that you cannot touch the 2 electrodes with your hands, to enable hazardous current flow through the heart. to prevent from touching is in this case almost impossible, which limits the application to the mentioned 40volts.

so in other words: if you would like to sell a device with 2 electrodes to apply some electro stimulation for the scalp, it’s relatively easy. of course, you have to let your design check by a third party organization to get some certificates on that. this can be done within 3 months.

47

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]
Magento, a few more questions…

  1. My understanding that the subsequent photos posted by vraf were not nearly as good as the first ones, in fact they were “no better than Minoxidil or Finasteride” according to a couple of posters who saw them and posted here. So, what do these later photos represent?

  2. Regarding Technion, you are saying “Technion is involved” but again my question is, exactly how are they involved? Are they just “involved” because a couple of engineers who have degrees from Technion happen to be working for Pilox, like Dr. Benitah? Or is the Technion Institute itself actually involved in an official corporate, business capacity?

  3. If the Technion Institute is actually involved in this project in an official capacity, don’t you think it’s odd that the first thing on their agenda wouldn’t be, “Let’s register with the Israeli government to conduct official clinical trials of our device, since it is a medical device”?

  4. Regarding Pilogics working on this for 5 years, how is that an indication that it actually works? Aderans worked on their ARI project for 10 years and it didn’t work, and Dr. Gho has been working on his HM projects for 15+ years, and he has very little to show for it. So how does the amount of time they’ve spent on their project have anything to do with its viability?[/quote]

+1

48

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Magneto_Amarendo[/postedby]
to be honest, i thought about electro stimulation on the scalp many times (i am an electronics engineer). i also thought of building a test device with 2 electrodes, to apply a voltage to the scalp and get some current flow through the follicles. it’s totally safe when built correctly. current will only flow between the two electrodes, so there is no danger to the scalp, brain or heart. just some stimulation of the scalp tissue.
however, there is no scientific background for that, and also not a hint which frequencies for stimulation would be best. so there are endless combinations to try for efficiency.
maybe the technion guys are more experienced and that biological field and have cracked the code how to do that right.
on the other side, i might be wrong and pilox has no electro stimulation at all.

however, i think, there is a lot of potential when using electricity on the scalp. if pilox turns out to be snakeoil, i will try to build a simple device to apply a voltage on the scalp and try different protocols. maybe i’m lucky with that, as crazy as it sounds :-)[/quote]

First, it’s good to talk to someone here who actually has a scientific background. My undergraduate degree is in Biochemistry.

I think there’s some comparison to the Laser Comb here, which I’m not a big fan of.

The Laser Comb actually does stimulate the follicles and promotes hair growth, but exceedingly slowly, not efficiently, and not effectively.

The way it works is by shooting photons into the follicles. Hair growth requires biochemical reactions, specifically anabolic ones where nutrients are consumed and tissues are built up. Shooting photons into a follicle puts energy into the system and will, in the short-term, stimulate the activity of enzymes which catalyze reactions that help hair to grow.

The big problem with the Laser Comb is that while its short-term effect is stimulatory (and only to a mild degree), its long-term effect is destructive because the same photons that stimulate enzymes in the short-term will cause point mutations in the DNA which will result in a permanent breakdown of healthy biochemical pathways in the longer term, resulting in less hair growth, not more. In fact, it will slowly destroy your follicles by accelerating the cellular aging process.

That’s why I believe the Laser Comb is a dangerous toy designed and marketed by greedy entrepreneurs who aren’t telling you the full story about the consequences of using their device.

I hope all of that doesn’t apply to running an electrical current through the scalp skin as Pilox is doing.

49

regarding point 4:

of course, the amount of development time has nothing to do with its efficiency, it’s only a good sign to me that they have been working on that for 5 years in the background, doing hardware and protocol improvements and so on.
if they would come and tell us, they have cracked the code within 3 months, then of course i would have my doubts, too.

5 years is a lot of time.

aderans and most of the other HM companies are doomed to fail because of insufficient funds. i also believe they drained too much money and almost showed nothing. aderans lost the game years ago, i guess, and they knew it. they just kept on pulling money to safe their jobs, and hoping for a breakthrough by accident, during their daydreams.
the same will happen to replicel, i think.
histogen will be a growth booster somewhen, but maybe still dissapointing, though expensive.
and follica, i don’t know what to think of them. they are dead and alive at the same time. the have the potential to bring something to market, but they are too shy to make the next step.

however, i think pilox will kick their a.s.s. and show them the right way. all these companies have been dancing around for too long. someone has to say “game over” to them. and this will be pilox in the first instance, and tsuji labs in the second and last instance. tsuji will bring the full cure, that’s for sure.

man, i can’t imagine what would happen if a big world player like google, apple or microsoft would take the challenge. you can be sure, they would fly in the best researchers and scientists from all over the world, let them work together on the basics, and would have the solution within 5 years. even it would cost 1 billion (which is peanuts for these big companies). money can move mountains. it’s a pity that nobody from us has a connection to one of the rich guys in the industry. e.g. elon musk would be ideal as he had a transplant already and knows what hairloss means. he is also eager so start new projects and to change the world. we need a guy like him. anyone here on the forum with lots of money? =)

50

I’d like to see Elon Musk get involved in this… then I’d be confident a real cure would be found.

About 2000, Steve Kirsch, a bald US internet millionaire from California, briefly talked about funding an effort to cure MPB, but he later got sidetracked onto other causes.

51

i thought about elon musk and other celebs many times. many of the balding celebs would invest good money for the right project. the problem is to kickstart such a project. it’s doomed to fail

52

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Magneto_Amarendo[/postedby]
to be honest, i thought about electro stimulation on the scalp many times (i am an electronics engineer). i also thought of building a test device with 2 electrodes, to apply a voltage to the scalp and get some current flow through the follicles. it’s totally safe when built correctly. current will only flow between the two electrodes, so there is no danger to the scalp, brain or heart. just some stimulation of the scalp tissue.
[/quote]

Many people may have thought about it, but what is the hypothesis for doing so? Is there any evidence to suggest that such ‘stimulation’ might be beneficial for hair growth? Otherwise it is shooting in the dark. I could also tie balloons to my head, but there is not a valid reason to do so.

53

you’re right, it’s a shooting in the dark. this is the reason why i haven’t build such a device yet. probably a waste of time if we have no scientific background. my thoughts about it are simply that it keeps blood vessels in movement, by somehow contracting and releasing, like muscles.

has anybody in the past tried something like that? (i’m reading the forums for about 2 years only). if someone has a link or a paper to this kind of biostimulation, please post it.

54

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Magneto_Amarendo[/postedby]
to be honest, i thought about electro stimulation on the scalp many times (i am an electronics engineer). i also thought of building a test device with 2 electrodes, to apply a voltage to the scalp and get some current flow through the follicles. it’s totally safe when built correctly. current will only flow between the two electrodes, so there is no danger to the scalp, brain or heart. just some stimulation of the scalp tissue.
however, there is no scientific background for that, and also not a hint which frequencies for stimulation would be best. so there are endless combinations to try for efficiency.
maybe the technion guys are more experienced and that biological field and have cracked the code how to do that right.
on the other side, i might be wrong and pilox has no electro stimulation at all.

however, i think, there is a lot of potential when using electricity on the scalp. if pilox turns out to be snakeoil, i will try to build a simple device to apply a voltage on the scalp and try different protocols. maybe i’m lucky with that, as crazy as it sounds :slight_smile:

[postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]

First, it’s good to talk to someone here who actually has a scientific background. My undergraduate degree is in Biochemistry.

I think there’s some comparison to the Laser Comb here, which I’m not a big fan of.

The Laser Comb actually does stimulate the follicles and promotes hair growth, but exceedingly slowly, not efficiently, and not effectively.

The way it works is by shooting photons into the follicles. Hair growth requires biochemical reactions, specifically anabolic ones where nutrients are consumed and tissues are built up. Shooting photons into a follicle puts energy into the system and will, in the short-term, stimulate the activity of enzymes which catalyze reactions that help hair to grow.

The big problem with the Laser Comb is that while its short-term effect is stimulatory (and only to a mild degree), its long-term effect is destructive because the same photons that stimulate enzymes in the short-term will cause point mutations in the DNA which will result in a permanent breakdown of healthy biochemical pathways in the longer term, resulting in less hair growth, not more. In fact, it will slowly destroy your follicles by accelerating the cellular aging process.

That’s why I believe the Laser Comb is a dangerous toy designed and marketed by greedy entrepreneurs who aren’t telling you the full story about the consequences of using their device.

I hope all of that doesn’t apply to running an electrical current through the scalp skin as Pilox is doing.[/quote]

your words about laser biostimulation: is that your own theory or are this general facts which we should know about?
is it really a long-term damage in any case?

55

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]
Magento, a few more questions…

  1. My understanding that the subsequent photos posted by vraf were not nearly as good as the first ones, in fact they were “no better than Minoxidil or Finasteride” according to a couple of posters who saw them and posted here. So, what do these later photos represent?

  2. Regarding Technion, you are saying “Technion is involved” but again my question is, exactly how are they involved? Are they just “involved” because a couple of engineers who have degrees from Technion happen to be working for Pilox, like Dr. Benitah? Or is the Technion Institute itself actually involved in an official corporate, business capacity?

  3. If the Technion Institute is actually involved in this project in an official capacity, don’t you think it’s odd that the first thing on their agenda wouldn’t be, “Let’s register with the Israeli government to conduct official clinical trials of our device, since it is a medical device”?

  4. Regarding Pilogics working on this for 5 years, how is that an indication that it actually works? Aderans worked on their ARI project for 10 years and it didn’t work, and Dr. Gho has been working on his HM projects for 15+ years, and he has very little to show for it. So how does the amount of time they’ve spent on their project have anything to do with its viability?[/quote]

  5. A few people said that, but havn’t posted these pictures anywhere… there are several poster who said it looks better than minox or fin… so what is your point?

  6. Technion, like other unis, may be involved. Either way, MIT wouldn’t let their professors or reserachers sell snake oil hair supplys, and technion probably wouldn’t either. What guy at MIT with plenty of income is going to do that anyway? Same for techion

  7. lol

  8. It doesn’t mean that it works. It means that it’s HIGHLY unlikely a snake oil guy has been planning his snake oil sale for over six years… spending that time and 100K on patents doesn’t seem like the usual plan of a snake oil salesman.

I have a gut feeling that you’re horribly wrong about this Roger. All other things in the pipeline have followed a similar and predictable pattern— and all have failed. Does it not seem likely that when the cure came, it may come in a pattern of events we haven’t seen before?

if you had the cure… and it was possible “simple”… would you be going out publicly like all these other companies who are looking for money TO SOLVE THE CURE. If you have the cure, you don’t need to publicly solicit. These guys havn’t publicly solicited. I dont know… as far as I can say, everything looks good so far. More is needed, but I’m satisfied so far.

56

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Magneto_Amarendo[ r/postedby]
you’re right, it’s a shooting in the dark. this is the reason why i haven’t build such a device yet. probably a waste of time if we have no scientific background. my thoughts about it are simply that it keeps blood vessels in movement, by somehow contracting and releasing, like muscles.

has anybody in the past tried something like that? (i’m reading the forums for about 2 years only). if someone has a link or a paper to this kind of biostimulation, please post it.[/quote]

Magneto, this concept (including the electrical stimulation) is very roughly similar to what the HairMax Laser Comb does. Please see my comments here in this thread about the Laser Comb.

Hair growth requires a lot of anabolic biochemical reactions to happen. A prime (though definitely not exclusive) example of such a reaction would be the synthesis of the protein keratin by enzymes in the keratinocytes of the follicle. In order for those enzymes to work, they need energy. Shooting light (photons) at the follicles, which is what the Laser Comb does, puts energy into that system and would speed up that process, making these enzymes work faster and produce keratin faster.

Possibly, although this is just a guess, running an electrical current through the follicles might do the same. We know that electricity will stimulate activity of, say, neurons. However, electrons aren’t the same as photons. A photon is a “packet of energy” that actually raises the ATP of the cells into a higher energy state, allowing it to provide energy to catalyze chemical reactions.

Electrons may stimulate certain reactions, but I don’t think it’s as clear-cut. What they’re mainly doing at the cellular level is creating a bioelectric gradient so that ions can flow faster through the cell membrane, perhaps. This may indirectly speed up certain reactions, but it’s not as clear-cut as shooting photons at a cell.

57

[quote]your words about laser biostimulation: is that your own theory or are this general facts which we should know about?
is it really a long-term damage in any case?[/quote]

This is my theory, but I don’t see how beaming laser light directly at follicles repeatedly over a long period of time would NOT cause cumulative damage to the DNA, resulting in the slow but certain destruction of the hair follicles. You may stimulate quicker hair growth in some cases, in the short term, but long term there will definitely be permanent damage and you’ll end up just as bald, if not balder, than before, plus assuming that someday we learn how to reliably revive dormant hair follicles, you probably wouldn’t even be a candidate for that.

58

When a decent MPB treatment comes, it probably won’t be from a group that struggles to clearly explain exactly how it works.

59

[quote]your words about laser biostimulation: is that your own theory or are this general facts which we should know about?
is it really a long-term damage in any case?

[postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]

This is my theory, but I don’t see how beaming laser light directly at follicles repeatedly over a long period of time would NOT cause cumulative damage to the DNA, resulting in the slow but certain destruction of the hair follicles. You may stimulate quicker hair growth in some cases, in the short term, but long term there will definitely be permanent damage and you’ll end up just as bald, if not balder, than before, plus assuming that someday we learn how to reliably revive dormant hair follicles, you probably wouldn’t even be a candidate for that.[/quote]

lol

60

http://tx.technion.ac.il/technion/dimotech/essay.html

http://isas.hu/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Dr.-Nadav-Pam-Israeli-Dermatology-Assosiation-35th-annual-congress-Medical-evidences-of-the-therapeutic-effect-of-edible-gelatin-on-TF-and-AGA..pdf