Open letter to helpme007 (and all young fencesitters)

Hair Transplant
21

I think the true extent of a given person’s donor supply is pretty simple. There is so much overthinking and over-science-ing but the issue is right there in front of us all. You can take one look at a guy’s head and mentally estimate what his remaining hair would look like if you spread it all out to cover his balding area too.

That’s all a HT really is. If your knee-jerk common sense reaction doesn’t think that a HT will work for a given situation, then it probably won’t.

Throw in future loss, throw in some donor thinning (THIS IS REAL AND IT IS COMMON), and the picture gets pretty bad.

Another thing - in the best-case scenario you might get most of those moved grafts to survive, but I honestly think the percentages are way lower than the industry commonly preaches. (Maybe 60-70% average and 80%+ on a very good case?)

We have reached a commonly understood estimation of what ______ grafts is supposed to look like. But what is that based on? Nobody is counting grafts as far as I know of. EVERYTHING is basically still referenced against other previous HTs. If we have formed our original ideas about what ______ grafts is supposed to look like based on an image of much less than that, then what is ever going to correct that misconception if nobody ever achieves better?

22

»
» No. There is no sense in which I am “for” HT. It is a bad surgery for
» the fundamental reasons I listed above.

Then you are a blatant hyprocrite. Why on earth did you get a HT? That’s insanity.

» Even
» people with exceptionally good donor characteristics (which, by
» definition, cannot be expected in most cases) will never have enough to
» restore their balding areas to anything like original density. That’s why
» docs and shills prattle about “illusion.”

Two questions. What in your opinion is good donor characteristics? And what’s wrong with “illusion”? Push up bras create clevage that gives the illusion of big breasts. Sometimes removing the shirt is a different story, but the population sees the illusion. A news anchor gets a HT to give the illusion of a low hairline. In person it might not look perfectly natural, but on TV the masses think he looks like every other TV announcer in the world. A successful illusion. An actor has lipo to lose weight. They might gain it back next year, but right now they look skinny for their film. An illusion? Sure, if temporary means illusion.

» Tit jobs are no illusion. Lipo
» doesn’t leave one dependent on illusion. Understand this simple point.

See above.

» It’s precisely b/c young MPB sufferers have a
» recent memory of a full head of hair that they are most vulnerable to
» shills and docs. “Realistic expectations” is one of the most dreadful
» weasel phrases ever coined. Young men are NOT notorious for reasonable
» expectations of any kind, and if they are vain and vulnerable enough to
» even consider a radical and permanent procedure like HT, they are
» UNREALISTIC by definition.

You give other people no credit. Not everyone is a sheeple. Many of us think very well for ourselves and to think you know whats better for most others than they know what is best for themselves is the highest pompousness.

» Finally, “realized there might be the need for future sessions and is OK »with the cost.” No one “realizes” the dreadful
» practical and financial burden of HT until they find themselves
» shellshocked sitting in that doctor’s chair yet again.

ORLY? So even though a person knows the costs of grafts and the likelyhood of a future surgery it won’t hit them until they are in the docs chair again? And then it will be shellshock. That sir, is laughable.
»
» **************

» I have written very extensively on these topics in the past.

Maybe you should stop. You insult people.
»
»
» TheFittest

23

» Then you are a blatant hypoccrite. Why on earth did you get a HT? That’s
» insanity.

Nope. Like almost everyone, I knew nothing before I started HT. I relied on pictures. I learned the truth about HT from the only school that matters: the hard school of experience.

» Two questions. What in your opinion is good donor characteristics?

Excellent hair characteristics are exceedingly rare. A person like this has extraordinary donor/follicular density, many 3-4 hair groups, wavy, coarse hair, and very little color differential between skin and hair. Further. He is over 40 and has little if any family history of hairloss, his current hairloss has been stable for at least 10 years, and is limited to a NW4 or high-sides NW5 at worst. He is wealthy and has plenty of free time.

» what’s wrong with “illusion”? Push up bras create cleavage that gives the
» illusion of big breasts.

The eye is cruel. The eye is pitiless. The “illusion” of HT very often fails in daylight. Most people are simply too polite to tell the unfortunate victim. But over drinks at the Xmas party, well, that may be a very different story.

In short, the “illusion” of HT is a “delusion.” Guys with HT-hairlines and big bald crowns, denuded temple points, etc., look terrible. That’s the harsh truth. Since MPB is relentlessly progressive, the “illusion” becomes more threadbare as time passes. Then, suddenly, there is nothing but the awful reality.

» You give other people no credit. Not everyone is a sheeple. Many of us
» think very well for ourselves and to think you know whats better for most
» others than they know what is best for themselves is the highest
» pompousness.

I give other people every credit – when they have the necessary experience and crucial information. HT is not about “thinking very well.” It’s about being desperate for a solution to baldness, even when that “solution” has such obvious flaws as HT. Like I said, there is no one better than the intelligent young guy —when it comes to rationalization.

» Maybe you should stop. You insult people.

I insult no one. You insult the ignorant when you pretend they don’t require the wisdom of the experienced. I am no better than anyone else, but I do have a great deal of experience. I have had many operations and have seen hundreds of HT in the flesh. That’s the whole point. Please omit personal invective from any further replies b/c it’s meaningless here.

No one can refute the arguments I’ve made about the miserably finite nature of the donor area and the stark differences between our dreams of HT and the realities of HT. Let us dwell on those harsh facts and make our decisions w/o emotion or rationalization.

TheFittest

24

» » Then you are a blatant hypoccrite. Why on earth did you get a HT? That’s
» » insanity.
»
» Nope. Like almost everyone, I knew nothing before I started HT. I
» relied on pictures. I learned the truth about HT from the only school that
» matters: the hard school of experience.

Fair enough. But you like your HT. So the actual experience wasn’t that “hard” for you.

I went back like you suggested to me and read a varied sample of your forum posts on the two online forums over the last 5 years. After reading your posts, I would suggest you are an extremist when it comes to judging HTs. While most people get their transplants and go on with their life, you have spent literally 1000’s of hours both reading/writing on HT forums and questing after HT recepients so that you can look at their HTs. You have made an incredible effort of time and energy to do this.

This goes beyond curiosity. I would suggest it has been a compulsion of yours. In fact the posts you write now are similar in tone and text to the ones you wrote 4 years ago.
»
»
» » Two questions. What in your opinion is good donor characteristics?
»
» Excellent hair characteristics are exceedingly rare. A person like this
» has extraordinary donor/follicular density, many 3-4 hair groups, wavy,
» coarse hair, and very little color differential between skin and hair.
» Further. He is over 40 and has little if any family history of hairloss,
» his current hairloss has been stable for at least 10 years, and is limited
» to a NW4 or high-sides NW5 at worst. He is wealthy and has plenty of free
» time.
»
» » what’s wrong with “illusion”? Push up bras create cleavage that gives
» the
» » illusion of big breasts.
»
» The eye is cruel. The eye is pitiless. The “illusion” of HT very often
» fails in daylight. Most people are simply too polite to tell the
» unfortunate victim. But over drinks at the Xmas party, well, that may be a
» very different story.

I suggest “the eye” isn’t pitiless. I suggest “your eye” is pitiless. Here is where you and I differ in opinion tremendously. I suggest that you have become hyper-aware of transplants because of an incredible desire to look at them and judge them in their entirety.

I don’t think most people in the world have a clue about transplants. I’ll use myself as an example. I have read these forums off and on for 8 years. I have looked at my fair share of HT pics, etc. And I didn’t even realize that my personal trainer had had a HT until he mentioned to me 4 months into training. My personal trainer is a NW6 who had a mere 1000 grafts put over his crown and region 2. His transplanted hairs stand pretty much straight up. And while he probably had most grafts grow, you can only imagine how thin the coverage is.

But I didn’t even notice.

And here’s another kicker. He’s happy as a lark about them. He got a “deal” at $2 or $3 a grafts, says if he ever has more money he’ll go get more. But hes so pleased that he actually brought it up out of the blue.

So, either I’m an idiot for not noticing, he’s an idiot for liking his HT, or you are an extremist in your judgement of HTs.

»
» In short, the “illusion” of HT is a “delusion.” Guys with HT-hairlines
» and big bald crowns, denuded temple points, etc., look terrible. That’s
» the harsh truth. Since MPB is relentlessly progressive, the “illusion”
» becomes more threadbare as time passes. Then, suddenly, there is nothing
» but the awful reality.

Who says they look terrible? YOU say they look terrible. But, mein Frueund, it doesn’t matter what you think. Or what the office person at the Christmas party thinks, or what the 19 year old retail assistant at Victoria Secrets thinks. It ONLY matters what the recipient thinks.

Who the &^ cares what anyone else thinks? You shouldn’t and neither should anyone getting a transplant.

»
»
» » You give other people no credit. Not everyone is a sheeple. Many of us
» » think very well for ourselves and to think you know whats better for
» most
» » others than they know what is best for themselves is the highest
» » pompousness.
»
» I give other people every credit – when they have the necessary
» experience and crucial information. HT is not about “thinking very
» well.” It’s about being desperate for a solution to baldness, even when
» that “solution” has such obvious flaws as HT. Like I said, there is no one
» better than the intelligent young guy —when it comes to rationalization.
»

Which is more desperate? A 30 yr. old who is willing to risk potential diffuse thinning from hairline to nape 10-15 years from now for a dense hairline today, or someone who spent 1000’s of hours interviewing HT recipients after his HT, of which he had 3 or 4? I would suggest that the latter may in fact be more desperate.

»

»
» No one can refute the arguments I’ve made about the miserably finite
» nature of the donor area and the stark differences between our dreams of HT
» and the realities of HT. Let us dwell on those harsh facts and make our
» decisions w/o emotion or rationalization.
»
Sure one can easily refute your arguments, because they are fraught with worse case scenarios. Just because you’ve spent 1000s of hours personally interviewing 100s of HT recipients from a handful of North Eastern US HT doctors, doesn’t make you an expert on any of the following:

  1. Exact chances anyone receiving a transplant will need (or want) another.
  2. How much donor hair any one particular person has.
  3. Quality of work that any one HT recipient will receive and how their body will respond to surgery.
  4. Happiness and contentment with HT any one recipient will have.
  5. Anyone’s emotional stability and expectations.

Your opinions may be true some of the time for some people. They are absolutely not true of all of the people all of the time. And that IS irrefutable.

»
»
» TheFittest

25

windjc,

Your posts are too concerned with “TheFittest” and not sufficiently concerned with the risks and realities of HT.

I gave you a thorough description of what counts as exceptional hair characteristics. Have you understood what I’ve written? It is very rare indeed to find oneself in the sweet spot for HT.

Donor limitations make HT a very risky and all-too-frequently unsatisfying surgery. Nothing anyone says can change that.

You’ll notice that I haven’t asked why you are so passionate – I haven’t made this about you. Because it isn’t. The realities of HT, the lessons of HT, are not to be extrapolated from individual cases.

MPB is a relentlessly progressive disorder. Donor hair quality diminishes over time. When guys in their twenties already have MPB of sufficient severity to consider HT, they are by definition in a bad place as far as HT is concerned. They will need many grafts and many surgeries for even a mediocre result.

HT-hair is forever. I understand the frustration with MPB and the lack of solutions. I understand the reliance on words to convince oneself that HT can work. But words are easy and facts are hard.

It doesn’t require 1000’s of hours to find out the truth about HT. Here is what I suggest: see at least 12 finished HT’s on guys who have roughly similar NW level and hair characteristics to yourself. Forget pictures and videos. When you’ve seen these HT’s in broad, bright, windy daylight, then you’ll know a great deal more about them.

If you still want HT after you see the reality of HT in the flesh, then that is your decision. Try to keep a clear mind, and remember what I have written here and elsewhere.

Best,
TheFittest

26

I think this brouhaha can all be boiled down to a few very short recommendations:

– See HTs in the flesh, forget about trying to do any serious judging by pics. (If you have any doubt of this, then just think back to that ulgy cow you met last spring after seeing her misleading profile pics online.)

– Don’t assume any amount of medications will buy you more than a decade of putting off the problem. A decade at best.

– You will need future surgeries = you must actually pay the full price for those future surgeries. This isn’t complicated.

27

I rarely post here, but do read often. I must agree with just about everything that the Fittest has posted. Not to take away from his post, I will give brief background on myself. I am 47, had several “mini-graft” transplants in early 90’s in the crown. Now at the time, I had thick hair in donor, and little loss in the front or vertex. Jump forward to now. I am a diffuse NW6, still pretty good donor although the hairs themselves are thinner, all native hair around the “mini-grafts” are gone. It’s not pretty, the grafts are pluggy, badly misangled, and nice pitting to add to the view.
The Fittest is correct, you will need several transplants, just to keep up. You better have the funds, it’s not cheap. In my case, I have a family, both my children are in college, and I cannot afford to get the mess fixed. You can’t say sorry kids, you can’t go to college so Dad can fix a rash/poor decision he made. The young men today have the benefit of the internet, better and (mostly more ethical Doctors) and someone willing to play the devils advocate. It’s a hard and emotonal time being early twenties and losing your hair, don’t make uneducated choices. I can’t even shave my head due to the railroad crossing scars on the back of my head.
I’m in the public view every day with no hat, I have to live with my bad choice (and the stares). If you are in the guidelines laid down by the Fittest, and have seen transplants in person and you choose a good reputable Doctor, I’d say go for it. If not, shave or buzz down and be thankful you don’t have to be in my shoes.

28

» Yeah i know what you mean…but then again at least i am not authority
» enough to give statistics out of my a… :slight_smile:

If only you could “read”, when I said 5% I was referring to horrible cases, I wasnt referring to situations where people whined about their hairlines not thick enough or they wish they had FUE instead etc etc, 5% is an educated guess for butchered cases and I don’t think that is too far off.

29

»
» If only you could “read”, when I said 5% I was referring to horrible
» cases, I wasnt referring to situations where people whined about their
» hairlines not thick enough or they wish they had FUE instead etc etc, 5%
» is an educated guess for butchered cases and I don’t think that is too far
» off.

No, that’s just it. I think even the BAD cases are much more than 5% of the total.

Of course the numbers are much smaller with the top docs than the hair mills. But I still don’t think you have a 95% chance of not being pissed off even with the top two dozen clinics.

The top guys don’t butcher people on purpose, but patients do come out of there with a result that is clearly subpar growth on a regular basis. I would define that as within range of being “butchered” when you spent several thousand grafts and you don’t really end up looking visually better 1-2 years after the transplant than you did before it.

There are a few certain clinics where I would expect a 95% chance of getting a major improvement in appearance after 1-2 years. Only a very few of them.

At this point I guess it becomes an issue of how we each define “butchered” and how many clinics are in our idea of the “top group.”

30

» »
» » If only you could “read”, when I said 5% I was referring to horrible
» » cases, I wasnt referring to situations where people whined about their
» » hairlines not thick enough or they wish they had FUE instead etc etc,
» 5%
» » is an educated guess for butchered cases and I don’t think that is too
» far
» » off.
»
» No, that’s just it. I think even the BAD cases are much more than 5% of
» the total.
»
»
»
»
» Of course the numbers are much smaller with the top docs than the hair
» mills. But I still don’t think you have a 95% chance of not being pissed
» off even with the top two dozen clinics.
»
» The top guys don’t butcher people on purpose, but patients do come out of
» there with a result that is clearly subpar growth on a regular basis. I
» would define that as within range of being “butchered” when you spent
» several thousand grafts and you don’t really end up looking visually better
» 1-2 years after the transplant than you did before it.
»
» There are a few certain clinics where I would expect a 95% chance of
» getting a major improvement in appearance after 1-2 years. Only a very few
» of them.
»
»
»
»
» At this point I guess it becomes an issue of how we each define
» “butchered” and how many clinics are in our idea of the “top group.”

This debate is pointless unless we come to an agreement as to how “horrible stories” or “butchered” should be defined, to me getting butchered is when it is almost beyond repair and your life is literally ruined, Zayden comes to mind. I have seen a lot of bad or subpar HT work in the forum but the large majority can be fixed in 1 or 2 sessions, I do not consider these as horrible stories or lives ruined.

31

» you will need several transplants, just to keep
» up. You better have the funds, it’s not cheap. In my case, I have a family,
» both my children are in college, and I cannot afford to get the mess fixed.
» You can’t say sorry kids, you can’t go to college so Dad can fix a
» rash/poor decision he made. The young men today have the benefit of the
» internet, better and (mostly more ethical Doctors) and someone willing to
» play the devils advocate. It’s a hard and emotonal time being early
» twenties and losing your hair, don’t make uneducated choices. I can’t even
» shave my head due to the railroad crossing scars on the back of my head.
» I’m in the public view every day with no hat, I have to live with my bad
» choice (and the stares).

thincity2,

Thank you so much for posting in this thread. You’ve achieved some of the most important, meaningful and best things in life despite the burden of bad HT. Two kids in college! I don’t envy you, but I applaud you. :wink: It takes courage to bounce back from a mistake and say: I will live my life.

I think your testimony here is precious, esp. for the young guys reading silently. The salesmen will claim that disasters like yours are “a thing of the past,” but we know better. The fundamental limits of HT remain. Safe and effective cloning has not arrived and is not on the horizon. We deal with finite donor: and therefore the severely balding will need more grafts than they can possibly get. And that’s that.

On the subject of repair. Maybe you can call around to some of the better docs and tell them your situation. Some of these docs do pro bono repair work. It’s worth a shot.

Thank you again for the most valuable kind of post there is: the one that speaks from knowledge, and sadly, in your case, bitter experience. I wish you the best from the bottom of my heart. Contact me any time.

Yours,
TheFittest

32

Yes, most of these guys don’t know what ther are getting themselves into. They don’t understand that if their thinnng and baldness bothers them that much now, their potetial disfigurement will make them feel 100 times worse. Don’t think it can’t happen. All one has to do is look at all the bad plastic surgery that comes out of Hollywood. It’s a big roll of the dice.

There are plenty of butchered patients out there. They don’t all post on these forums. Many of the ones that do, have come and gone. My estimate of happy patients is 10%. Nobody has to agree with this, but that is what I beieve when I look at the numbers.

Thankfully BHR has offered me some pro bono work. I know that I am really limited, but hopefully they can improve this mess.

There are some caring and honest clinics out there. They are just hard to find. Don’t believe the hype.

33

Hi Fittest, I’m hoping in two years to have the funding available to get repaired. I have had two repair consults in the last year and half. One was with Dr. Wolf in Cincinnati, I found him to be sincere and honest, something that was refreshing. I also had one with Dr. Cole in Atlanta, I posted my expirence with that on this site. I cannot judge Dr. Cole as he was unable to see me personally. His consultant (I think Johnnie was his name) was very knowledgable, but the point of traveling to Atlanta was for Dr. Cole to look at the damage first hand. I did make it clear to both clinics that I would not be in a position to do anything until late 2011. Both recommended 1800-2000 FUE grafts. However, Ive lost more hair on top, so that may estimate may change. My scars while quite numerous, thankfully are thin, but in such a pattern that it looks like Freddy Kruger took a swipe at me.
As far as my plan to fix this, I plan on a consult with Shapiro Medicial in the future. I still have Dr. Cole on my list as he has done some great repair work.
A few months ago I was in a three day class and a very NW 6 with a shaved head was sitting in front me. I was shocked to see in my estimate about 1000 fue scars in the “safe” zone. They looked to be 1mm punch size and each and everyone was highly noticible. His top was shaved down and at least you couldn’t see any recipent scarring. I wondered when got those done if he expected to continue to a NW6?
I try not to be bitter as it only makes it worse, but sometimes when I get stares, it’s really demoralizing. I think you being as I called the “devils advocate” is great. I wonder how many of these younger men will even pause to reconsider though. I just remember I was in such a panic and swallowed, hook, line and sinker the sales pitch from the consultant at "Chambers Hair Insitute"
Do I still think transplants are good? Yes, under the conditions you stated at the begining of this thread. I also think that anyone getting one has to have the right expectation of what you will get. Most younger patients want a wall of hair, where someone at my age will be very happy for a high hairline and some coverage. Please keep up your efforts, I think some posters think you are anti-transplant, but I feel you are not. You just want those considering one, carefully weigh the facts.

34

» None of this matters. People should be adults, do their research
» carefully, think about the short term and long term pros and cons and make
» a decision.
»
» Then they should take responsibility for that decision.
»
» Pretty plain and simple.

It matters to me.

I read your post and point of view too.So, providing that the concepts and policies in effect in the HT Industry at the present time are presumed to be good policies and concepts; the value which is accepted at present time is presumed to be a good value; and that which is to assumed to be a fact at the present time is presumed to be true, would it matter then, to you, if good and sufficient reason can be given for changing it? If none of this matters, as you say, would giving you a reason why those above are not what they are presumed to be, matter? Do you think that presuming that this status quo in HT industry is ok, means that the present policy is the best possible policy, or even that it is a good policy. Or, that merely dictates that the present policy is the established policy and that it will continue in effect until is changed, maybe because, good and sufficient reason is given for changing it? Good or bad, the existing policy is the status quo. It will continue in effect until those who believe it is bad can show good and sufficient reason for changing it .I ask you here now, would you like to HEAR good and sufficient reason why it should be changed? As you have it in your power, with your eloquent persuasion, to do the service to posters, members and viewers, I implore you not to clip the wings of writers here so closely, like you are the ultimate authority on what reasonable liberty permits man here to say. For that there is a Moderator. You are not a moderator… People buy what they choose. People have brains, let them decide is something worth reading …Research you say? The due diligence of research? Well the Fittest gives very good data to be researched.
I have honestly sought, with all the attention of which I am capable, to gain some definite idea from opinions of members here with different views upon Hair Transplant, and the result of all my researches is NOT done. Why are you sabotaging my research when you chase out people with different opinion then yours? When on the other hand you implore people to do research? What is research? I want to get deeper into what the Fittest is writing about. I think I’d like to research it.

35

»
» It matters to me.
»
» I read your post and point of view too.So, providing that the concepts and
» policies in effect in the HT Industry at the present time are presumed to
» be good policies and concepts; the value which is accepted at present time
» is presumed to be a good value; and that which is to assumed to be a fact
» at the present time is presumed to be true, would it matter then, to
» you, if good and sufficient reason can be given for changing it? If
» none of this matters, as you say, would giving you a reason why those above
» are not what they are presumed to be, matter? Do you think that presuming
» that this status quo in HT industry is ok, means that the present policy is
» the best possible policy, or even that it is a good policy. Or, that
» merely dictates that the present policy is the established policy and that
» it will continue in effect until is changed, maybe because, good and
» sufficient reason is given for changing it? Good or bad, the existing
» policy is the status quo. It will continue in effect until those who
» believe it is bad can show good and sufficient reason for changing it .I
» ask you here now, would you like to HEAR good and sufficient reason why it
» should be changed? As you have it in your power, with your eloquent
» persuasion, to do the service to posters, members and viewers, I implore
» you not to clip the wings of writers here so closely, like you are the
» ultimate authority on what reasonable liberty permits man here to say. For
» that there is a Moderator. You are not a moderator… People buy what they
» choose. People have brains, let them decide is something worth reading
» …Research you say? The due diligence of research? Well the Fittest gives
» very good data to be researched.
» I have honestly sought, with all the attention of which I am capable, to
» gain some definite idea from opinions of members here with different views
» upon Hair Transplant, and the result of all my researches is NOT done. Why
» are you sabotaging my research when you chase out people with different
» opinion then yours? When on the other hand you implore people to do
» research? What is research? I want to get deeper into what the Fittest is
» writing about. I think I’d like to research it.

John honestly i agree with what you write…but i got a headache from reading this :smiley:

36

» John honestly i agree with what you write…but i got a headache from
» reading this :smiley:

Sorry, English is not my mother language. But, if you agree with me then you understood me. When he says to us do research,he shouldn’t in the same time try to silence opinion outlets.

37

n/t

38

“But bad news spreads much much faster than good news.”

I disagree completely, good news is in the majority here. Bad news is the majority in newspapers because it sells more papers and so is more profitable. Here there is no financial incentive for anybody to promote doing nothing and not having an HT - but there are plenty of shills promoting HT’s and skewed galleries showing the very best results trying to persuade people to “go for it” and part with thousands of dollars. It’s the usual situation - follow the money.

For people 30+ with money who have done their research and have REALISTIC expectations and have good donor chararcteristics and are aware of the risks an HT can be a sound option - in my opinion.

I would also add that in my view TheFittest, is, as he has always been, a very welcome and knowledgeable reality check to people thinking about an HT.

39

well said Skywalker.:wink:

40

Good to see you Hairtech, I hope things are going well for you.