One thing you guys fail to consider

» HANGING-GEEZER
» hope you get a job soon that pays better than minimum wage, and you can
» one day realize your dream of HM being here, so you can stop wearing a
» toupee
»
» but how you can afford HM is the next question
» I hear mastercard only charges 20 percent interest, but then you cant get
» one of those either with your bad credit
»
» Ahhh… more geezer ramblings that go nowhere. Thanks again old man.
»
»
»
» .

you will be my age soon, only hope you live that long , guys like you tend to walk in front of cars , u know , not the sharpest knives in the drawer

shit, has hanginthere got a long thread again.

life s too short to fight with hanging. :wink: or to fight anyway in a hairloss forum. i learned that now ;).

now shut up and talk about icx and follica again!

» shit, has hanginthere got a long thread again.
»
» life s too short to fight with hanging. :wink: or to fight anyway in a
» hairloss forum. i learned that now ;).
»
» now shut up and talk about icx and follica again!

rev starts it every time…he enjoys being abused, hes a masochist

» » shit, has hanginthere got a long thread again.
» »
» » life s too short to fight with hanging. :wink: or to fight anyway in a
» » hairloss forum. i learned that now ;).
» »
» » now shut up and talk about icx and follica again!
»
» rev starts it every time…he enjoys being
» abused, hes a masochist

ya i see.

HAIRLESS GEEZER
rev starts it every time…he enjoys being
abused, hes a masochist

LOL. Listen to yourself you old geezer:
rev started it mommy. he’s a poopy pants

Grow up old man.

.

Dear Hanginginthere,

I have something to tell you…

Yo momma is like a bowling ball, she gets three fingers, thrown in the gutter and comes back for more!

Yo momma is so ugly, her mom had to tie a steak around her to get the dogs to play with her!

Yo momma is so fat, when she fell over, she rocked herself to sleep trying to get back up!

Yo momma is so bald, when she walks in a bar, people start smacking her on the head with pool cues.:smiley:

» Dear Hanginginthere,
»
» I have something to tell you…
»
» Yo momma is like a bowling ball, she gets three fingers, thrown in the
» gutter and comes back for more!
»
» Yo momma is so ugly, her mom had to tie a steak around her to get the
» dogs to play with her!
»
» Yo momma is so fat, when she fell over, she rocked herself to sleep
» trying to get back up!
»
» Yo momma is so bald, when she walks in a bar, people start smacking her
» on the head with pool cues.:smiley:

this reflects the mentality of the average HM board member

Mate grow up and get an education… quick!

» I admit, it’s hard to believe you’re 42 years old based on your childlike
» comments. But hey… if you say you’re a 42 year old unemployed geezer
» that’s good enough for me.
»
» BTW, you talk too much old man
»

LOL! You really cracked me up with that one. Thanks for the laugh :slight_smile:

To the poster who asked how many hairs can be grown in a single injection, the most I have seen so far is about 30 hairs per injection, but that particular study was not performed by ICX.

It is well established that it typically takes about 5 seconds per HM injection. Contrast this to HT, and one begins to realize what a true paradigm shift in technology HM represents.

“30 hairs per injection”

Say what?

» “30 hairs per injection”
»
» Say what?

That’s the upper end, and only in the best responders. The study was a fundamental study performed in mice that ICX partially based it’s protocol on. I tend to think ICX’ protocol is aimed at getting 1 hair per injection though. At least for now. It’s important to keep in mind that the early HM treatments are not going to be anything to write home about. They will establish a baseline technology, that when seen by others, will undergo a period of rapid advancement.

» » “30 hairs per injection”
» »
» » Say what?

I thought I would post some relevant info. Keep in mind, that this study is fairly representative of ICX technique, which is why they say they think they are growing new follicles as well as stimulating old ones (note that the technique causes roughly half and half). Read the full document, and you will gain a lot of insight into ICX’ technique as their protocol is actually quite similar (a knock-off). Here is a quote concerning growing multiple hairs per injection:

“The cell injections in PBS had caused blebbing of the epidermis over large areas of the ear and this likely permitted the spread of cells under the epidermis once injected. Although similar numbers of cells were implanted to each ear, the number of visible hair fibers varied considerably from a minimum of 3 to an estimated 30.”

But then again, I could very likely be misinterpreting that, and it could mean multiple injections contributed to a single bleb. At any rate, it demonstrates the consistency problem that ICX must solve before this procedure can be marketed to the masses.

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v121/n6/full/5602058a.html

Here are some observations on the Follica patent.

The important experiment (on human skin growing human hair):

EXAMPLE 7

EDIHN-INDUCES NEW HAIR FOLLICLES IN HUMAN SKIN

MATERIALS AND EXPERIMENTAL METHODS

Grafting

[000210] Discarded human, adult scalp from the preauricular area obtained from plastic surgery was grafted onto immunodeficient (scid) mice. The graft was bandaged and allowed to heal, then was used in the wound healing study 3 months after grafting.

RESULTS

[000211 ] To determine whether human skin responded to EDIHN as did mouse skin, human skin was grafted onto SCID (immuno-deficient) mice and subjected to depilation by plucking and wound induction three days later. Seven days following wound induction, formation of new HF was observed in the human skin (Figure 2 IA; arrows indicate new HF) by hematoxylin and eosin staining of paraffin embedded tissue sections.

[000212] In additional experiments, adult human skin was grafted onto mice., abraded, and examined at 7 days post-abrasion. New HF were generated in the human skkx, which mimicked normal hair follicle formation during fetal development, as evidenced by staining for SlOO A6 or S100A4 (Figure 21B).

P-7628-PC

[000213] The results of this Example show that EDIHN can be used to generate hair growth inhuman skin as for mouse skin.

The new hair germs were formed in seven days, indicating the re-epilithialization period in human skin is shorter than in murine skin.

What they appear to be doing is this:

1)They pluck your existing hairs or depilate them out of the thinning area three days before wounding. This upped the number of new hairs grown in all experiments.

2)The abrade the skin (or CO2 laser it). They also put you on or administer a EGF-receptor blocker or a compound that inhbits EGF production in the skin. You will not be able to administer any ointment or any healing or anti-infective agent to the skin for a few days at least. I think three was the minumum mentioned in the patent. One might be water washing their head or using a very basic shampoo during this time. Its also mentioned in the patent that one is not to use any healing ointment or any substance that assists with infections at all for several days after the wounding, or any bandages at all. Im pretty sure they will not want you to sleep on the abraded part of the scalp for at least 3-5 days during the re-epilithialization period.

  1. After day 3 to day 12, you will be putting on a compound that is either WNT protiens or lithium salts or other lithium compounds that mimic WNT in the skin for certain. WNT manipulation was the biggest factor in success in the graph adjacent to the patent, and mice that had wnt overexpressed grew about ten times as much hair at first glance, even though mice that were simply wounded and the wound was allowed to heal utterly naturally did grow some hair.

  2. “Other” compounds along with wnt or wnt-mimetics will be used to help the process. A great many are mentioned. Anti-androgens like finasteride, fluridil, flutamide, cyterperone acetate, and spiro are mentioned in the patent as antiandrogens. Estrogen repceptor agonsits are mentioned. Beta Catenin, Minoxidil, FIberblast growth factor, - bromoindirubin-3’-oxime (BIO, hedgehog, certain dna fragments, particular nucleotides, hair follicle stem cells, DP cells, inner and outer root sheath cells are all mentioned in the patent as substances that can enhance hair follicle formation. Whatever compound they come up with might contain them all or at least several of them. There were a few more substances mentioned here also.

After about day 12 or so, it looks like they dont mention using anything else, so I imagine the process will be done at that time and you will be waiting another month or so to actually see little hairs emerging from your scalp.

Here is my take…This will almost certainly work in the back of the head----or the donor area. It should also work in parts of the scalp that have hair, whereby they can abrade the skin between existing hairs with a small instrument, resulting in thicker hair. Dermabrasion does not go deep, it merely removes the epilithial layer. Hair follicles in anagen reside 2-4 mm down in the dermis, and thus wont be hurt by it if they were not plucked. Im not so sure about the signalling environment or the reproductive capablilty of bald skin, especially long-bald skin, but I hope its effective there also. We will see, they are going right for human trials as they obviously think they have a winner. This is probably too complex to try at home, but I imagine the first co-hort will tell us all we need to know about its chances of working over large areas of the scalp------and soon. We might know by the end of the summer in fact, or only a couple of months after they commence a trial. Even if it makes “some” hair, refining the process with the correct compounds will probably enable it to make alot of hair. What I worry about is the human immune system marking these hairs (or better yet, not marking them as its been found recently that balding hairs have a substance removed from them that keeps the immune system from attacking them, resulting in loss of their immunological priveleges, hence why they die on us). I do not worry about this in the donor area scalp though. I think this will work in the back for sure, Im not sure about the front-----but here is to hoping.

“…and given the way Follica is promoting their product, they seem to think it will be a stand-alone treatment. I suspect the real breakthrough (obviously) is in the compounds applied post wounding.”

You may be quite right about that, and I hope you are, consider this:

Recently a genetic discovery was made (I think Skiploss posted it in the forum), regarding Using DNA samples from 11 members of a Saudi Arabian family that had inherited the a rare condition affecting 1 in 200,000 people who lose hair in childhood and early teens, the researchers found that a mutation in the P2Y5 gene prevented proteins called growth receptors on hair follicle cells from forming properly.

This meant a substance needed to stimulate hair growth could not attach to the defective receptors and may help explain hair loss, the researchers said. The finding could lead to drugs that target these proteins to boost hair growth, they added.

If such a substance could be added to the “cocktail” during the period that these hairs form (days 3-12 or 1-12), or if some of the other genetic genes responsible for MPB can be counteracted with various topicals during this crucial period WHEN THE HAIRS FORM during these ALL-IMPORTANT 9-10 DAYS, the hairs formed up front might very well be completely very resistant to male hormone just like someone who does not have MPB. Thats, of course, “out there” in the future as all genes have not been identified as of yet, but the human genome has indeed been mapped. Its a matter of looking through a very big haystack to be sure, but science is looking through that haystack every single day at this point. Even if the hairs formed in the present are just like the ones you have…you get a second chance to get on finasteride and use nizoral at the very least to attempt to keep them from INCEPTION this time. They might not fall at all if you do so. You noticed that in the patent they mention using anti-androgens during this time…high androgens during pregnancy correlate mathematically with physical phenomena later like long ring fingers (my ring fingers are quite a bit longer than my index fingers, almost as long as my middle finger…indicating that my mother had high androgens comparitively speaking in her pregnancy with me). I dont remember if there was a correlation with long ring fingers and baldness, but I think a statsitically signifigant ratio was observed there. It cant be good. Just with the anti-androgens (they mentioned flutatmide, fluridil, cyterperone acetate, and finasteride in the patent), you might have much better hairs forming up there. One may feel icky for nine or ten days on flutamide, but if it mean DHT-resistant hair…I think I could handle it.

Its hard to believe that both ICX and Follica would not pan out in my opinion. I think one of the two will be the answer. If not, it really may be several years before anything comes down the pike…my opinion.

http://www.wipo.int/patentscopedb/en/wads.jsp?IA=US2006011319&LANGUAGE=EN&ID=id00000004377644&VOL=63&DOC=000d4a&WO=06/105109&WEEK=40/2006&TYPE=A2&DOC_TYPE=PAMPH&PAGE=1

I hope that graph translates, but its the numbers of hairs that abrasion with wnt7a vs abrasion alone formed on the mice. I think the area was quite small, I’d have to look it up. There are pics on the patent. The hair came in very thick…I mean VERY THICK

Like the video at 11 weeks, http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-US&brand=msnbc&vid=3b251041-8028-403d-a6fc-e749264afc01

Very thick indeed. Human skin is pigmented, so white hair wont be an issue like it is with mice…

you have to go to page 255 in the patent to see the chart on the link I provided, it didn’t direct to that page. Pictures are in the late 240’s through 250’s if I remember correctly, so you can watch the de noveau (brand new) hars form …

Okay, that makes sense now. I did not know that the cells actually migrated away from a single injection site. Thanks for the information.

» 1)They pluck your existing hairs or depilate them out of the thinning area
» three days before wounding. This upped the number of new hairs grown in all
» experiments.

Quite a few years ago, I recommended a similar approach for performing HM because plucking the hair causes the HF to ramp up on stem cells and go into remodeling mode. This no doubt influences the surrounding tissue somewhat as well as the follicle itself.

» 2)The abrade the skin (or CO2 laser it).

This is another tactic used in HM that has been shown to increase the hair regrowth due to the wound response.

» WNT manipulation was the biggest factor in success

WNT presence is a big factors of success in DP cell HM.

» 4) “Other” compounds along with wnt or wnt-mimetics will be used to help
» the process. A great many are mentioned.

These are also frequently mentioned in HM patents to be used for similar purposes

In short, this technique is not conceptually far from being HM, but you don’t get the benefit of the new follicles’ DP being morphologically identical to the donor follicles. It might be possible to get the benefits of both worlds by combining certain aspects of both procedures.

HM-and hair technology naysaysers should keep in mind that more and more and more info on every single cellular process in hair cycles and hair formation is being found out every day. The human genome is finding the genes that control all the processes upstream of physical display of every little thing that goes on.

We WILL find out precisely why the immunological inflammatory attack occurs in hair and what genes predispose hair to this manifestation later, We WILL find out what happens in fetal formation of hair and what can be done to stop baldness genetics from being passed on. Someday, your mamma may take a pill when she is pregnant and voilia’, no baldness for anyone.

Science and reason march forward. Its the most beautiful manifestation of what we are as human beings vs. being a goddammned animal in a jungle.

What ICX, Aderans, Follica are all working on is a cosmetic problem that men dont like and are willing to pay money for to have fixed, we live in a time where we have the tools small enough, the microscopy powerful enough, the genome mapped, to really go after these microscopic occurences . Its like fixing a complex machine that just happens to be very tiny------a hair follicel probably is not as complicated as a great big mainframe computer is, but its much much smaller. We can fix the mainframe with alot of time and effort when a virus fucks alot of its processess up. We will get to the point to where we can fix whatever processes in the follicle are fucking up and create more follicles that will not go fubar on us.

Every different trial represents another step forward and things are being learned in each trial. On the 18th, we may find that they have alot more success or just a little more success, but even if only from a trial and error standpoint, they will have learned one thing works a smidgen better than another, and hence we will be a step closer.

Both HM and wounding + wnt7a protiens have GROWN HUMAN HAIR ON HUMAN SKIN WHERE IT DID NOT PREVIOUSLY EXIST. Wounding and wnt7a made brand new hair (not rejuvination) on genetically bald mice with no hair at all. Complete de noveau hair growth was seen.

Its not 1999 or 2001 anymore. The instruments, the labs, the know-how is all better and continues to improve. To be a pessimist about this is just looking to play devils advocate. Time is on OUR side.

In the Follica patent, various antiandrogens are mentioned. Flutamide, fluridil, cyterperone acetate, and finasteride, and spironolactone.

They are to be used from either day 3 thru 12 or 1 thru 12. Why?

Did you know that finger length ratios of bald men correlate to longer ring fingers than other males? My ring fingers are easily longer than my index fingers, and almost as long as my middle finger----especiall the right one. It is associated with high androgens in the mothers womb. Baldness is also associated with high androgens in the mothers womb.

With Follica, one is getting a second chance to make hairs, just like they were in fetal development. The hair they make, if they can be made on long bald scalp, might indeed not be sensitive to DHT…and even if they are, one can simply use finasteride to keep them. Various bits of DNA are mentioned to be used in the patent. As more of the human genome becomes known, and we learn about what genes predispose us to what, they might add things to their topical that block certain genes from expressing themselves during this 9-day period.

Even at the worst, extra donor hair can be remade in donor scars (scars are mentioned in the patent) and the donor area thickened up.

The more I contemplate what they are discussing in the patent and the two interviews they have conducted…and consider that Stenn, KLIGMAN, Costarialis, and the entire U of Penn Dermatology Dept was in on this…the more I think they have a right to be quietly confident.

Like Ive said before, I dont care how male baldness is beaten…I simply want it defeated for all men everywhere. Too long have men been saddenned in their early and mid-twenties, the prime of life, by noticing their hairlines were abandoning them—making them look like their grandads way too early on.