Brazil1, who is a very knowledgeable poster with a considerable grasp of the science involved in PGD2 inhibition, made the following comment here recently:
“Immediate regrowth or reversal of balding is obviously the holy grail but it could take 30 days, 60 days, or 6 months to get observable results. I do think prostaglandins are a very promising mechanism but would look for anecdotes of stopping balding to emerge, with any regrowth taking a lot longer. If you think of balding as a disease process, there really aren’t any cures that immediately heal you… cures typically halt the disease process then “healing” or reversal occurs more slowly.”
I think he’s right. Expecting immediate results and quick hair growth from this stuff is probably unrealistic. He’s probably right that the first anecdotes will be about “stopping balding” – e.g., exactly what alecbaldone has noted, and that reports of actual regrowth would probably come considerably later, after up to 6 months, perhaps.
What PGD2 does to our hair follicles doesn’t happen overnight, and the reversal of this process may not happen overnight, either. PGD2 basically puts our follicles into a extended (read, permanent) coma, by extending their resting phase indefinitely, and it may take an extended period of PGD2 inhibition to reawaken the follicles from that coma.
Obviously progenitor cells are somehow involved in this process, and any hair regrowth would have to be preceded by the regeneration of progenitor cells from stem cells in the scalp, and I don’t know how long this would take. But I think this is part of the “healing” process that brazil1 is referring to.
» Brazil1, who is a very knowledgeable poster with a considerable grasp of
» the science involved in PGD2 inhibition, made the following comment here
» recently:
»
» “Immediate regrowth or reversal of balding is obviously the holy grail but
» it could take 30 days, 60 days, or 6 months to get observable results. I do
» think prostaglandins are a very promising mechanism but would look for
» anecdotes of stopping balding to emerge, with any regrowth taking a lot
» longer. If you think of balding as a disease process, there really aren’t
» any cures that immediately heal you… cures typically halt the disease
» process then “healing” or reversal occurs more slowly.”
»
» I think he’s right. Expecting immediate results and quick hair growth from
» this stuff is probably unrealistic. He’s probably right that the first
» anecdotes will be about “stopping balding” – e.g., exactly what
» alecbaldone has noted, and that reports of actual regrowth would probably
» come considerably later, after up to 6 months, perhaps.
»
» What PGD2 does to our hair follicles doesn’t happen overnight, and the
» reversal of this process may not happen overnight, either. PGD2 basically
» puts our follicles into a extended (read, permanent) coma, by extending
» their resting phase indefinitely, and it may take an extended period of
» PGD2 inhibition to reawaken the follicles from that coma.
»
» Obviously progenitor cells are somehow involved in this process, and any
» hair regrowth would have to be preceded by the regeneration of progenitor
» cells from stem cells in the scalp, and I don’t know how long this would
» take. But I think this is part of the “healing” process that brazil1 is
» referring to.
I asked in another thread and nobody replied. I’ve been losing slowly over the past 20 years and am a 3 progressing to 4(currently all loss in corners). Would it be recommended to start on that blocker treatment from the iron dragon website?
hey rogfar71:
at this stage I dont think anyone here can give you that advice. We simply don’t know yet… alecbaldone seems to be quite satisfied so far. He also has a certain degree of credibility here, being a looong term poster on this forum.
So personally I think it is certainly worth a shot.
best of luck, whatever you choose to do.
»
» I asked in another thread and nobody replied. I’ve been losing slowly over
» the past 20 years and am a 3 progressing to 4(currently all loss in
» corners). Would it be recommended to start on that blocker treatment from
» the iron dragon website?
» Brazil1, who is a very knowledgeable poster with a considerable grasp of
» the science involved in PGD2 inhibition, made the following comment here
» recently:
»
» “Immediate regrowth or reversal of balding is obviously the holy grail but
» it could take 30 days, 60 days, or 6 months to get observable results. I do
» think prostaglandins are a very promising mechanism but would look for
» anecdotes of stopping balding to emerge, with any regrowth taking a lot
» longer. If you think of balding as a disease process, there really aren’t
» any cures that immediately heal you… cures typically halt the disease
» process then “healing” or reversal occurs more slowly.”
»
» I think he’s right. Expecting immediate results and quick hair growth from
» this stuff is probably unrealistic. He’s probably right that the first
» anecdotes will be about “stopping balding” – e.g., exactly what
» alecbaldone has noted, and that reports of actual regrowth would probably
» come considerably later, after up to 6 months, perhaps.
»
» What PGD2 does to our hair follicles doesn’t happen overnight, and the
» reversal of this process may not happen overnight, either. PGD2 basically
» puts our follicles into a extended (read, permanent) coma, by extending
» their resting phase indefinitely, and it may take an extended period of
» PGD2 inhibition to reawaken the follicles from that coma.
»
» Obviously progenitor cells are somehow involved in this process, and any
» hair regrowth would have to be preceded by the regeneration of progenitor
» cells from stem cells in the scalp, and I don’t know how long this would
» take. But I think this is part of the “healing” process that brazil1 is
» referring to.
When I started minoxidil, I had to use it for a whole year before I was certain it made a difference.
Although at the six-month mark I thought my hair looked thicker, I still wasn’t certain.
It wasn’t until I had been on minoxidil a whole year, that I was certain it was helping.
Remember, I wasn’t slick bald–and so using minoxidil on thinning hair makes any additional hair harder to recognize.
» hey rogfar71:
» at this stage I dont think anyone here can give you that advice. We simply
» don’t know yet… alecbaldone seems to be quite satisfied so far. He also
» has a certain degree of credibility here, being a looong term poster on
» this forum.
»
» So personally I think it is certainly worth a shot.
»
» best of luck, whatever you choose to do.
»
» »
» » I asked in another thread and nobody replied. I’ve been losing slowly
» over
» » the past 20 years and am a 3 progressing to 4(currently all loss in
» » corners). Would it be recommended to start on that blocker treatment
» from
» » the iron dragon website?
Thanks. I’ve put off going to extremes, but that bald clock is ticking
Guys,
You are correct, the PDG2 blocker from iron-dragon has completely stopped my hair loss but no noticeable results yet. I’ve been applying it twice a day for over 3 weeks and no side effects. Alec
» Guys,
» You are correct, the PDG2 blocker from iron-dragon has completely stopped
» my hair loss but no noticeable results yet. I’ve been applying it twice a
» day for over 3 weeks and no side effects. Alec
That’s great to hear! I hope you continue to track your results and post up about it. I am sure I am not the only one who will be looking on with interest.
» Brazil1, who is a very knowledgeable poster with a considerable grasp of
» the science involved in PGD2 inhibition, made the following comment here
» recently:
»
» “Immediate regrowth or reversal of balding is obviously the holy grail but
» it could take 30 days, 60 days, or 6 months to get observable results. I do
» think prostaglandins are a very promising mechanism but would look for
» anecdotes of stopping balding to emerge, with any regrowth taking a lot
» longer. If you think of balding as a disease process, there really aren’t
» any cures that immediately heal you… cures typically halt the disease
» process then “healing” or reversal occurs more slowly.”
»
» I think he’s right. Expecting immediate results and quick hair growth from
» this stuff is probably unrealistic. He’s probably right that the first
» anecdotes will be about “stopping balding” – e.g., exactly what
» alecbaldone has noted, and that reports of actual regrowth would probably
» come considerably later, after up to 6 months, perhaps.
»
» What PGD2 does to our hair follicles doesn’t happen overnight, and the
» reversal of this process may not happen overnight, either. PGD2 basically
» puts our follicles into a extended (read, permanent) coma, by extending
» their resting phase indefinitely, and it may take an extended period of
» PGD2 inhibition to reawaken the follicles from that coma.
»
» Obviously progenitor cells are somehow involved in this process, and any
» hair regrowth would have to be preceded by the regeneration of progenitor
» cells from stem cells in the scalp, and I don’t know how long this would
» take. But I think this is part of the “healing” process that brazil1 is
» referring to.
Thanks roger, I appreciate the positive feedback, and I would like to take the time to look over some more science as I’m able; I just have been very busy lately!
Im trying to figure out why a pgd2 receptor antagonist like OC wouldn’t produce results in the first six months. Minoxidil grows hair within three months in a lot of users. If pgd2 is a major player in the balding process wouldnt’ we see results in the first six months of usage. I dont mean to be negative, just trying to get a handle on why OC wouldnt work as quickly. Im hoping that the issue isnt with absorption of OC or maybe we just need more time.
» Im trying to figure out why a pgd2 receptor antagonist like OC wouldn’t
» produce results in the first six months. Minoxidil grows hair within three
» months in a lot of users. If pgd2 is a major player in the balding process
» wouldnt’ we see results in the first six months of usage. I dont mean to be
» negative, just trying to get a handle on why OC wouldnt work as quickly. Im
» hoping that the issue isnt with absorption of OC or maybe we just need more
» time.
I think it’s because the results you see with Minoxidil would be almost all reviving follicles which were recently miniaturized. Minoxidil is having a direct stimulatory effect on these follicles which are still functional (sort of). Recently miniaturized follicles may still have some progenitor cells present. Progenitor cells seem to be the “trigger” which push dormant follicles into anagen phase.
Whereas with PGD2 inhibitors, the target population would be those follicles, plus potentially ALL your miniaturized follicles, regardless of how long they’ve been miniaturized.
What PGD2 inhibitors might do is reverse the entire process of miniaturization, including regenerating a population of progenitor cells from stem cells.
I theorize that continued exposure to PGD2 has a cumulative effect on the follicles which continues long after the follicles have been visibly miniaturized. This has to do with gradually reducing populations of progenitor cells near the follicles, ultimately resulting in total elimination of all progenitor cells.
The PGD2 inhibitor “reversal” process may take much longer, but may yield much better results after progenitor cell populations have been restored to pre-MPB levels.
I’m just speculating here, but I think this reasoning might jive with what may actually happen.
» » Im trying to figure out why a pgd2 receptor antagonist like OC wouldn’t
» » produce results in the first six months. Minoxidil grows hair within
» three
» » months in a lot of users. If pgd2 is a major player in the balding
» process
» » wouldnt’ we see results in the first six months of usage. I dont mean to
» be
» » negative, just trying to get a handle on why OC wouldnt work as quickly.
» Im
» » hoping that the issue isnt with absorption of OC or maybe we just need
» more
» » time.
»
» I think it’s because the results you see with Minoxidil would be almost all
» reviving follicles which were recently miniaturized. Minoxidil is having a
» direct stimulatory effect on these follicles which are still functional
» (sort of). Recently miniaturized follicles may still have some progenitor
» cells present. Progenitor cells seem to be the “trigger” which push
» dormant follicles into anagen phase.
»
» Whereas with PGD2 inhibitors, the target population would be those
» follicles, plus potentially ALL your miniaturized follicles, regardless of
» how long they’ve been miniaturized.
»
» What PGD2 inhibitors might do is reverse the entire process of
» miniaturization, including regenerating a population of progenitor cells
» from stem cells.
»
» I theorize that continued exposure to PGD2 has a cumulative effect on the
» follicles which continues long after the follicles have been visibly
» miniaturized. This has to do with gradually reducing populations of
» progenitor cells near the follicles, ultimately resulting in total
» elimination of all progenitor cells.
»
» The PGD2 inhibitor “reversal” process may take much longer, but may yield
» much better results after progenitor cell populations have been restored to
» pre-MPB levels.
»
» I’m just speculating here, but I think this reasoning might jive with what
» may actually happen.
You might be correct. I have a single strand of hair in my temporal area (no other hair present) I plucked to see how long it would take to grow back, it took four months! restoring lost hair could take at least a year.
» For all we know it might take many years.
»
»
» A follicle becomes much harder to revive (well, essentially impossible)
» something like 2-3 years after the area of skin first goes shiny bald.
»
» I wonder if that 2-3 year figure will show up again somehow, now that
» people are PGD2 fighting.
Cal, good point. I agree with you about the 2-3 years estimate, but has that been demonstrated anywhere or is that just from your own experience?
» » For all we know it might take many years.
» »
» »
» » A follicle becomes much harder to revive (well, essentially impossible)
» » something like 2-3 years after the area of skin first goes shiny bald.
» »
» » I wonder if that 2-3 year figure will show up again somehow, now that
» » people are PGD2 fighting.
»
»
» Cal, good point. I agree with you about the 2-3 years estimate, but has
» that been demonstrated anywhere or is that just from your own experience?
Im 43 yrs old and my vellous hairs are growing VERY SLOW, but definitely growing
At the very least, I remember some hair researcher making the observation that fully balded vellus hairs become much harder to revive after something like 18-30 months have passed.
And we know that fully-balded skin is not quite like healthy or balding skin. Maybe that’s the length of time over which that change occurs.
» At the very least, I remember some hair researcher making the observation
» that fully balded vellus hairs become much harder to revive after something
» like 18-30 months have passed.
Do you mean the study below from Russia (posted here recently by Amilcar, even though it’s a very old study… somehow Amilcar forgot to post the date). The study was funded by Nioxin Research, Inc., an American company hawking spurious so-called “cures” or “hair treatments”…?
Konstantinova N, Korotkii N.G, Sharova N, Barhunova E, Gaevski D. Nioxin Research Inc, Atlanta, USA Moscow Medical University
We studied horizontal and vertical biopsy from 15 caucasian 24-41 year old males diagnosed with bitemporal recession Androgenetic Alopecia (AA) for 1.5 –18 years (average 7.4 years). … [rest of the abstract has been clipped; the study goes on to basically say that after about 18 months of hairloss, follicles can never be revived]
This study is like the meme that won’t die. People are forgetting where it’s from (Russia)… not that all medical research is badly done there, but Russia is known to have a “wild west” mentality when it comes to medical research… often Western companies enlist hired gun researchers there to prove a “point” for commercial reasons, to sell more of their product. Also, Russia has an almost totally unregulated system of medical clinics where doctors are hawking “amazing stem cell cures” for everything from paralysis to cancer, without much research to back it up… Patients are often wealthy oligarchs with money to burn.
I think the 2-3 years figure comes from the length of the anagen phase in humans. IIRC mice have much shorter hair cycles than we do, so they will display results faster.
» I think the 2-3 years figure comes from the length of the anagen phase in
» humans. IIRC mice have much shorter hair cycles than we do, so they will
» display results faster.
»
»
» But this is just a theory, I could be dead wrong.
This doesn’t explain how Histogen get more or less immediate results.
Wouldn’t that too take up to 3 years?
» » I think the 2-3 years figure comes from the length of the anagen phase
» in
» » humans. IIRC mice have much shorter hair cycles than we do, so they will
» » display results faster.
» »
» »
» » But this is just a theory, I could be dead wrong.
»
» This doesn’t explain how Histogen get more or less immediate results.
» Wouldn’t that too take up to 3 years?
Histogen is doing something totally different. Here we’re interrupting the normal balding process, and you have to remember, that according to current theory, androgens are active in between anagen cycles, so we will need to wait for anagen to end before any medication takes effect, at least according to current theory.
I have always guessed that Histogen is lying about their procedure, but I’m happy to be wrong.
» Histogen is doing something totally different. Here we’re interrupting the
» normal balding process, and you have to remember, that according to current
» theory, androgens are active in between anagen cycles, so we will need to
» wait for anagen to end before any medication takes effect, at least
» according to current theory.
I remember reading that a measurable amount of miniaturization can occur during a single growth cycle. It’s not just happening between anagen cycles.
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