Wonder what Raztec’s reasons were for introducing the new formula? I have never heard of one positive testimonial from the stuff. And why zinc acetate as opposed to zinc sulphate?
» Wonder what Raztec’s reasons were for introducing the new formula? I have
» never heard of one positive testimonial from the stuff. And why zinc
» acetate as opposed to zinc sulphate?
what I really want to see is if the saw palmetto in it has much effect. The zinc acetate probably (is supposed to anyway) inhibits NADP, which is upstream of alpha five reductase synthesis.
That stuff aint at my house yet though, and I ordered it a good week back…Im wondering about that. Usually stuff gets here pretty quick.
»»
» » » They used various doses, but the largest one (I believe) was
» » » 0.5 mL of a 5% solution.
» »
» » ok then that’s 25mg per application…a lot less than what I use, that
» » explains the lack of systemic effects.
»
» Hahah! The stumptailed macaques also WEIGH a lot less than you do,
» El_Dut! The amount of RU58841 on a per-kilogram body-weight basis was
» quite substantial.
»
Bryan, a stumptailed macquaque weights about 12 kgs. I weight 65kg.
I do use 6.15mg per Kg of body weight…the studies used 2.1mg per Kg…
I therefore use almost 3 times that amount per body/weight, that’s a lot more than what was used in the study.
They should have used a lot more of the drug to find the threshold when adverse effects start to appear. Their animal studies were incomplete in that regard. That is certainly not sufficient to draw definite conclusions on side effects
What about zinc sulphate, Benji? Would that have an effect on NADP or is it only zinc acetate?
» What about zinc sulphate, Benji? Would that have an effect on NADP or is
» it only zinc acetate?
its a zinc salt…Im guessing thats why Raztec would put that in there----is that he thinks it would fufill that function. Really can’t fathom any other reason. We know pyrithione zinc shampoos have a positive effect on the amount of hairs in the anagen phase, and apparently decrease shedding slightly (for six months anyway), even though the diameter is slightly smaller with them.
I don’t know if it (Crinagen) is any good or not. I thought it would be a good way to test topical saw palmetto though…the stuff hasn’t come in the mail yet. I ordered the fluridil this afternoon. Got two months worth of it.
» Im assuming that this is what you mean:
»
» " Thereafter, I began a series of 9 Sebutape impressions, one every
» half-hour, for a total of 4 1/2 hours. I marked each test-strip with a “G”,
» followed by the numbers 1 through 9, to indicate that those were made
» during the “Grunge” or “Greasy” period! The numbers indicate the amount of
» time in half-hours following the de-fatting that the impression was made.
» For example, “G5” is on the strip that was made at the end of the grunge
» period, 2 1/2 hours after the de-fatting."
That’s the one, yes.
» Putting on sebutape every half hour for a few hours and comparing the size
» of the dots from the treated forehead area vs. the untreated forehead area?
No no no no… How many times and how often you do it (like every 30 minutes, or whatever) doesn’t really have anything to do with it. I was only doing it that often just to get multiple samples, in case somebody objected to my results by saying that I had a “lucky” single sample, or whatever. I wanted to show everybody that my results were reasonably consistent over several Sebutape impressions.
The key issue here, which you still haven’t said anything about, is whether or not you did the DE-FATTING prior to using your test-strips. Since you didn’t even say anything about it, all I can assume is that you didn’t do any washing at the beginning. In other words, all you were measuring was the casual level of sebum. That’s the level of sebum on your skin after having been “pooling” on your skin for a long long time. It’s what you’d find on your skin if you showered in the morning, then used the Sebutape test-strip later that night. It’s been accumulating on your skin all day long! 
But that doesn’t really say too much about the actual internal rate at which the sebaceous glands manufacture sebum. Why not? Because there are other factors which can influence how long sebum hangs around on the surface of the skin, besides just the internal production rate.
What I want you to do is try to measure (or estimate) the actual PRODUCTION RATE of sebum within the sebaceous glands, because that’s more accurate than just measuring how much happens to be on your skin several hours after the last wash. The way you do that is like I described in detail in that link: first you thoroughly de-fat your skin (I suggest using pure Ivory soap, and following that with wiping with pure alcohol, to get every bit of the fat off), then wait a precise number of minutes (typically 30 minutes to maybe an hour or so), THEN you use the Sebutape test-strip. The point to that, of course, is that you’re measuring ONLY the tiny amount of sebum which has oozed onto your skin during that fixed, brief interval of time (30-60 minutes). You don’t have to worry about inconsistent and unpredictable “pooling” effects on the skin over a period of several hours.
» I was doing it by putting one strip on the untreated side, and one on the
» treated side, waiting about 65-70 minutes, and then comparing the two to
» see which one had larger (and more) dots.
BTW, I think you should use the Skin Indicators, like I used in my test. If you take several samples every half hour like I did, you can also put them together like I did, and make a nice scan of them side-by-side, for easy viewing and comparing.
first you thoroughly de-fat your skin (I suggest using pure Ivory soap, and following that with wiping with pure alcohol, to get every bit of the fat off), then wait a precise number of minutes (typically 30 minutes to maybe an hour or so), THEN you use the Sebutape test-strip. The point to that, of course, is that you’re measuring ONLY the tiny amount of sebum which has oozed onto your skin during that fixed, brief interval of time (30-60 minutes).
Bryan, I followed the instructions that came with my SEBUTAPE Adhesive Patches from cuderm.
The directions are as follows: Clean the areas to be evaluated with an alcohol swab or mild soap solution. Rinse and dry throuroughly. Carefully lift the patches from the carrier sheet and apply to the cleansed skin sites. Smooth the patch so that it adheres closely to the skin surface. After one HOUR OR OTHER SUITABLE TIME PERIOD, remove the patches and treansfer the black rectangles onto the storage card, et cetera et cetera…
Thats what Ive been doing Bryan. There was nothing about waiting half an hour before putting the sebutape patches on after “defatting” (washing and drying, removing all previous sebum) the skin in the instructions that Im looking at right now.
What are you thoughts on Zix? Do you think it could be beneficial?
» What are you thoughts on Zix? Do you think it could be beneficial?
Testing with sebutape strips or sebutape patches might be a way to find out if zix is effective at the sebaceous gland level of the dermis. Ive seen a few users of it over the years claim that their hairloss slowed or stopped, but I dont recall anybody claiming a lot of regrowth with it. I honestly dont know. There used to be a guy with a zix website who told people how to mix it up at home. I think the zinc needs to be a salt, but really can’t remember. When I test Crinagen (if the stuff ever gets here-LOL), I’ll be able to tell you. I ordered Fluridil, so that is coming too. I have more than hair-reasons to want to test this stuff. Im interested in acne. I used to have some in my youth, and would like to find something that could lower sebum secretions for that purpose and let people know what I found.
» Bryan, I followed the instructions that came with my SEBUTAPE Adhesive
» Patches from cuderm.
But I don’t CARE what the instructions say! The specific way you use your Sebutape test-strips (either the Skin Patches or the Skin Indicators) will depend on your specific PURPOSE for using them. If all you want to do is measure the casual level of sebum on your skin, then you won’t do any cleaning at all prior to using the test-strips. But if you want to measure the sebum production rate, you’ll have to use a method similar to what I described previously. The instructions that come with the Sebutape test-strips are certainly not “one-size-fits-all” instructions.
» The directions are as follows: Clean the areas to be evaluated with an
» alcohol swab or mild soap solution. Rinse and dry throuroughly. Carefully
» lift the patches from the carrier sheet and apply to the cleansed skin
» sites. Smooth the patch so that it adheres closely to the skin surface.
» After one HOUR OR OTHER SUITABLE TIME PERIOD, remove the patches and
» treansfer the black rectangles onto the storage card, et cetera et
» cetera…
»
» Thats what Ive been doing Bryan. There was nothing about waiting half an
» hour before putting the sebutape patches on after “defatting” (washing and
» drying, removing all previous sebum) the skin in the instructions that Im
» looking at right now.
You have to understand that those instructions ARE a test of the production rate. They tell you to clean (de-fat) the skin, then apply the skin patches to measure the subsequent oil production over a short period of time (1 hour). However, I again recommend that you use the Skin Indicators, rather than the Skin Patches. The Skin Indicators are held against the skin for only 5 seconds, they don’t have to be stuck there for an hour. The Skin Indicators are what I’ve used for all my own tests. They’re the ones you see in my links.
You have to understand that those instructions ARE a test of the production rate. They tell you to clean (de-fat) the skin, then apply the skin patches to measure the subsequent oil production over a short period of time (1 hour). However, I again recommend that you use the Skin Indicators, rather than the Skin Patches. The Skin Indicators are held against the skin for only 5 seconds, they don’t have to be stuck there for an hour. The Skin Indicators are what I’ve used for all my own tests. They’re the ones you see in my links.
alright Bryan…I’ll buy some of em’ (strips)and give em’ a shot.
I want to get various things “tested”, so I know once and for all, and to share the information if I test anything that really looks efficious. 
» alright Bryan…I’ll buy some of em’ (strips)and
» give em’ a shot.
Didn’t you tell me on HLT that you had BOTH the Skin Patches and the Skin Indicators?
» » alright Bryan…I’ll buy some of em’ (strips)and
» » give em’ a shot.
»
» Didn’t you tell me on HLT that you had BOTH the Skin Patches and the Skin
» Indicators?
No, I have the patches and the D-squame adhesive discs (which Ive thrown away, they measure how much cells slough off the stratum cornelium or some such).
I ordered Fluridil yesterday…so I’ll give that stuff a run when it gets here. (the damned Crinagen isn’t here yet, its been a week…stuff usually gets here faster).
Fluridil? Crinagen? With all due respect, benji, these treatments were debunked years ago. To be honest with you, I thought that neither was still on the market. I applaud your willingness to try new things, but I think that you may be heading in the wrong direction. Just my humble opinion. Anyway, good luck with the treatments.
» Fluridil? Crinagen? With all due respect, benji, these treatments
» were debunked years ago. To be honest with you, I thought that
» neither was still on the market.
HUH?? Fluridil has continued to be a subject of discussion on hairloss sites to this very day! If it had been “debunked” several years ago and no longer on the market (BTW, I do have my own grave doubts about that product), why would it still be being discussed so much?
» No, I have the patches and the D-squame adhesive discs…
Damn…I could have SWORN that you’d said that you had both products.
Oh, well. If you only have the Skin Patches, I don’t think you should spend more money just to get the Skin Indicators. I personally don’t have any experience with the Patches, but they’ll probably work okay for your tests.
I have not seen that many recent discussions on Fluridil. Maybe my eyes just glaze over and the yawning reflex kicks in when I see posts about Fluridil.
» » No, I have the patches and the D-squame adhesive discs…
»
» Damn…I could have SWORN that you’d said that you had both products.
AHA!!! I just knew that I wasn’t losing my mind (well, not yet, anyway)!
Here’s that post from you on HLT on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 (added empahsis in that one sentence below is my own):
Quoting Bryan:
“Oh no! You got the skin patches, not the Skin Indicators!
I don’t have any experience with what you got. Oh, well…”
"No, I have the skin indicators…but they also sent the scaliness indicatoirs for whatever reason. Obviously I dont need those.
I should be testing Friday. Im eagerly anticipating the results yea or nay. Fluridil and spiro are also things we should end up testing…cedarwood also."
I’ll tell you what’s weird for me. I’ve NEVER had acne, have almost no body hair (at 35 now) only have to shave EOD (could NEVER grow a beard or even moustache) never had dandruff or oily problem scalp. All symptoms of those with MPB, yet I still have thinning in the front.
Makes you wonder…
» I’ll tell you what’s weird for me. I’ve NEVER had acne, have almost no
» body hair (at 35 now) only have to shave EOD (could NEVER grow a beard or
» even moustache) never had dandruff or oily problem scalp. All symptoms of
» those with MPB, yet I still have thinning in the front.
»
» Makes you wonder…
There are two genes most strongly identified with MPB. One is a particular variant of the androgen receptor gene that over 98% of all balding men have, but 76.1% of non-balding men (in the German study, that had over a thousand men in it) have that same type of receptor gene also.
The OTHER gene that is most strongly implicated thusfar is located somewhere on Chromosome 20. There are over 900 genes on chromosome 20.
If you have BOTH genes, you are SEVEN TIMES more likely to have baldness statistically according to that study.
The ectodysplasin gene has also been statistically correlated with pattern baldness. There are a couple of other genes that have been associated with other kinds of alopecias.
However these genes “work together” in fetal development must predispose these hairs to baldness, or the scalp skin in the “very close surround” of the hairs themselves, to make the hairs within them be predisposed to baldness. Its got to be one or the other.
One thing that threw me, however, is a South Korean study I read online a couple of years ago that showed in their contorl and balding groups, there really was no differnce in the 7 genes that are correlated to alpha five reductase expression. Yet men with baldness are supposed to have more DHT in the balding scalps that hirsute men. Thats led me to wonder if something upstream of alpha five reductase in the -very close surround- skin around the hair follicles (that little cylinder of skin that gets moved when follicles are transplanted) like 17b-hsd or NADP might be “elevated” in the balding scalp, making more alpha five reductase enzymes available in the outer root sheath of the hair follicles (5AR-type 2 is located in the innermost portion of the outer root sheath of hair follicles, and its thought by many that almost all the DHT your follicle’s androgen receptors uptake was created right there at the follicle itself). Just a thought, probably not true…Anyway, balding men seem to have more androgen receptors on the follicles in balding scalp.
There -are- men who have hairy bodies and heavy beards who keep all of their hair though. I have two uncles like this. Norwood 1’s in their late 50’s. Hairy all over their bodies, very “manly” men, full beards…all their head hair.
I remember reading an article about baldness in which one researcher stated that there were probably 4 or 5 genes responsible for pattern baldness. Its obviously not -all-the androgen receptor gene, because 3 out of 4 non-balding men in the German study who were hirsute had that same AR gene. You had to have that gene to exhibit MPB, but there are others that obviously play a role. The researcher thought these genes “work together” to produce MPB. Supposedly, the hair’s response to androgens is pretty much determined by the end of the first trimester of a woman’s pregnancy.
It would be great if we could someday isolate one of these genes and somehow “block it” during the first month of a woman’s pregnancy so people wouldn’t ever develop MPB.