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BENJI, question for you


#1

What are your thoughts on Fluridil? Do you think it’s a legit treatment? Many learned folks like Bryan Shelton and Dave 001 are skeptical of it due to lack of independant studies.


#2

» What are your thoughts on Fluridil? Do you think it’s a legit treatment?
» Many learned folks like Bryan Shelton and Dave 001 are skeptical of it due
» to lack of independant studies.

Per “El Duterino” on the Propecia forum, when I asked him about it, this is what he said below…the RU stuff is hard to get, I think he gets it from China, that is why he mentioned Fluridil, with a combo of other stuff. I’ve been wanting to get it and give it a try, but these days I can only afford Minox, but it looks like it would be a good complement to it.

“Fluridil is a lot less effective than RU but easier to order and apply, and costs less. fluridil is good at stopping shedding/haircount reduction, but poor at increase of exisiting hair thickness. RU is good at both.
A combo of both might be good since they can work in synergy, fluridil inhibits androgen recepetors”


#3

» What are your thoughts on Fluridil? Do you think it’s a legit treatment?
» Many learned folks like Bryan Shelton and Dave 001 are skeptical of it due
» to lack of independant studies.

Im probably going to order some of that and test it with sebutape. Ive got some Crinagen ordered (They have a new forumula that is just zinc acetate and saw palmetto as the primary anti-androgens). I’ll probably end up testing spiro too. I have plenty of sebutape left…no reason to waste it.

Im on my last iteration of essential oils with alchohol carriers now. I wouldn’t mind trying just cedarwood oil—alone with no carrier at some point. It takes 6-7 days to get a result (Liang and Lau did that with EGCG). Green tea extract with 50% ethanol didn’t do much.
Lavender with water didn’t do much either…a small reduction in sebum, thats it.

If I dont get anything that at least cuts the sebum production in half…then its really not noteworthy. My last little try was with ethanol/water and some lavender/cedarwood…If I had to guess, I’d say the size of the dots on the sebutape might have been 20% smaller at the very most, maybe a little less. It -was- some reduction, but nothing to get excited about.

On fluridil…I’d love for it to work.

Right now, if I had to pick just one topical anti-androgen, based on the pics Ive seen…it would have to be keto cream from the Japanese Study. Perhaps someone could use keto cream when their head was wet, and apply fluridil after it dried. Fluridil is kinda pricey though. Even if fluridil had eye-opening sebum reduction performance, that doesn’t mean that it gets down to dermal papilla depth either. There are three fluridil pictures on the net. One is pretty impressive, but the other two really are not. http://www.menspharma.com/results.htm

Im sure you have seen the keto cream pictures,
http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-25116-page-0-category-0-order-last_answer.html


#4

» If I dont get anything that at least cuts the sebum production in
» half…then its really not noteworthy. My last little try was with
» ethanol/water and some lavender/cedarwood…If I had to guess,
» I’d say the size of the dots on the sebutape might have been 20% smaller
» smaller at the very most, maybe a little less. It -was- some reduction,
» but nothing to get excited about.

Michael, please describe the exact procedure you’re using when you conduct your Sebutape testing. I want to make sure we’re on the same page here.


#5

Fluridil is a drug that has only one mode of action: inhibiting androgen receptors.
However, to stop hairloss completley you would have to inhibit close to 100% of the androgen receptors AT ALL TIMES, and this is simply not possible without major side effects as very powerful drugs would be needed.

that’s why I don’t rely on the studies of the actual effectiveness of the drug when used on its own.

before ordereing the product a year ago, I read all the reports on fluridil and many were positive - indicating that the drug must be doing SOMETHING - inhibitng some AR at least.

SO i use it in my combo and I observe that it is good at preventing shedding and loss of coverage.

If I would use RU at 4% twice a day all the time I would perhaps not need fluridil, but such huge amount of RU is very expensive and might not be safe, and will produce some erection issues after a while. Fluridil adds some balance to the regimen and another angle in this fight.

if I take a few days break of RU due to libido sides, I can rely on fluridil to keep my haircount for a couple of days.

I don’t use any othe drugs now, stopped DUT due to low libido.


#6

» Fluridil is a drug that has only one mode of action: inhibiting
» androgen receptors.

By “inhibiting” androgen receptors, do you mean blocking them?

» However, to stop hairloss completley you would have to inhibit close
» to 100% of the androgen receptors AT ALL TIMES, and this is simply
» not possible without major side effects as very powerful drugs
» would be needed.

Not according to the animal studies. Daily doses of topical RU58841 were sufficient to stop further balding for pretty long periods of time in the stumptailed macaques, and there were no side effects.

» If I would use RU at 4% twice a day all the time I would perhaps not
» need fluridil, but such huge amount of RU is very expensive and might
» not be safe, and will produce some erection issues after a while.

I don’t know why you keep talking about that as a possibility. There’s no hint of that in the animal studies.


#7

no, Flurdil does not block the AR like an androgen antagonist would do - it works by inhibiting the AR itself.

Similar mode of action to ASC-j9 of androscience.

Read the research patent paper on BP-766, this explains more about its mode of action.

For RU, the libido/erection side effects are real but not as strong as on flutamide.

Human libido is quite complex and I am sure that they did not test this in those macaques - or did they ?

Lets say that my new girlfriend is testing my libido to the extreme and I need to be on top of my shape in this department…If I would be married with kids and having sex once in a while I would perhaps not notice any major libido changes.

I still am using RU as my main treatment - spending thousand of dollars on it - but this is not a perfect drug. Close but not perfect.


#8

» no, Flurdil does not block the AR like an androgen antagonist
» would do - it works by inhibiting the AR itself.

Are you trying to say that it inhibits the synthesis of androgen receptors, thereby reducing their number? Why not just say it that way, rather than say that it “inhibits” androgen receptors, which is very ambiguous in this context?

BTW, fluridil is supposed to work BOTH ways: it blocks androgen receptors, and (supposedly) reduces their numbers.

» For RU, the libido/erection side effects are real but not as strong
» as on flutamide.

Based on what…your own experience?

» Human libido is quite complex and I am sure that they did not test
» this in those macaques - or did they ?

I imagine it would be difficult to try to measure libido in monkeys, but the point is that to the best of my knowledge, topical RU58841 has never shown any systemic side effects. I don’t know why you keep talking about that as a possibility.

» Lets say that my new girlfriend is testing my libido to the extreme and I
» need to be on top of my shape in this department…

Does that mean you also need to be on top PERIOD? :slight_smile:


#9

Benji

But is the Keto cream used in those studies readily available to the public?


#10

» BTW, fluridil is supposed to work BOTH ways: it blocks androgen
» receptors,
mmh…where did you read that ?

» Based on what…your own experience?
yes, and we don’t have access to any independant, human testing results. A few other hlh memebrs (Bora is one) have written similar things on libido.

» I imagine it would be difficult to try to measure libido in monkeys, but
» the point is that to the best of my knowledge, topical RU58841 has never
» shown any systemic side effects. I don’t know why you keep talking about
» that as a possibility.

well, we know that the serum half life of RU58841 is about 1 hour, so that’s still plenty of time for a small amount of RU58841 to go travel around the bloodstream and possibly bind to some other AR, don’t you think ?

In addition, we also know that 1% of RU58841 transforms itself into the metabolite RU 56279, an anti-androgen, which is eliminated a lot slower, and will build up in the human body over time and eventually cause “some” adverse effects, especially if very high topical doses are used.

I use 400mg of RU58841 powder a day. I have overall diffuse thinning and cover my whole scalp since I stopped DUT. Not sure how many mg of RU per day they used on those monkeys. My feeling is that the amounts were too small to measure anything. One would have to use a lot more, in humans, to draw final conclusions on systemic effects.

So in my own case, we might suppose that roughly up to 4mg a day (1%) gets converted into RU 56279 ,which it is eliminted very slowly and so does build up.
Remember our little flutamide debate ? the equivalent of oral 10mg a day of flutamide was enough to cause strong systemic side effects after 2-3 months.

» » Lets say that my new girlfriend is testing my libido to the extreme and
» I
» » need to be on top of my shape in this department…
»
» Does that mean you also need to be on top PERIOD? :slight_smile:

well…this is all part of the testing of RU…


#11

Well it’s unfortunate that Fluridil won’t thicken existing hairs as that is what most would want from an AA…including me!


#12

» » BTW, fluridil is supposed to work BOTH ways: it blocks androgen
» » receptors,
» mmh…where did you read that ?

The published article and study about fluridil.

» » I imagine it would be difficult to try to measure libido in monkeys,
» » but the point is that to the best of my knowledge, topical RU58841
» » has never shown any systemic side effects. I don’t know why you
» » keep talking about that as a possibility.
»
» well, we know that the serum half life of RU58841 is about 1 hour, so
» that’s still plenty of time for a small amount of RU58841 to go travel
» around the bloodstream and possibly bind to some other AR, don’t you
» think?

We can’t go around second-guessing doctors and scientists, drawing their conclusions FOR them about these highly technical issues. The bottom-line to this issue is that topical RU58841 has never been shown to have systemic effects when applied in vivo to living, breathing animals.

» In addition, we also know that 1% of RU58841 transforms itself into the
» metabolite RU 56279, an anti-androgen, which is eliminated a lot slower,
» and will build up in the human body over time and eventually cause “some”
» adverse effects, especially if very high topical doses are used.

Again: LET THE SCIENTISTS DO THE WORK. Don’t try to help them out by drawing their conclusions for them! :slight_smile:

» I use 400mg of RU58841 powder a day.

I think you’re over-doing it.

» I have overall diffuse thinning and
» cover my whole scalp since I stopped DUT. Not sure how many mg of RU per
» day they used on those monkeys.

They used various doses, but the largest one (I believe) was 0.5 mL of a 5% solution.

» My feeling is that the amounts were too small
» to measure anything. One would have to use a lot more, in humans,
» to draw final conclusions on systemic effects.

I once did an estimate of how much RU58841 a typical human would use, based on the actual area of balding scalp to which it was applied in stumptailed macaques. If I remember correctly, I concluded that the traditional 1 mL (twice a day) of a 5% RU solution would be adequate for a typical human.

» So in my own case, we might suppose that roughly up to 4mg a day (1%) gets
» converted into RU 56279 ,which it is eliminted very slowly and so does
» build up.

Again, El_Dut, stop trying to use logic to “guesstimate” what happens with topical RU58841. Use the experiments on living, breathing animals to make that determination.

» » Does that mean you also need to be on top PERIOD? :slight_smile:
»
» well…this is all part of the testing of RU…

You didn’t get my joke? :slight_smile:


#13

»
» We can’t go around second-guessing doctors and scientists, drawing their
» conclusions FOR them about these highly technical issues. The bottom-line
» to this issue is that topical RU58841 has never been shown to have systemic
» effects when applied in vivo to living, breathing animals.

We have an obligation to question those studies since they were done in animals only and using small amounts of the drug.
Drawing final conclusions on animal studies only is not sufficient, Bryan. There needs to be independent, double blinded studies involving a large group of humans, not animals, and some should involve very large amounts of the drug as well. Until that step is reached, there are simply no arguments against drawing our own conclusions.

» » In addition, we also know that 1% of RU58841 transforms itself into the
» » metabolite RU 56279, an anti-androgen, which is eliminated a lot
» slower,
» » and will build up in the human body over time and eventually cause
» “some”
» » adverse effects, especially if very high topical doses are used.
»
» Again: LET THE SCIENTISTS DO THE WORK. Don’t try to help them out by
» drawing their conclusions for them! :slight_smile:

Again, the scientific studies are incomplete.The effect of the metabolites are certainly not to be ignored.

» » I use 400mg of RU58841 powder a day.
»
» I think you’re over-doing it.
»
» » I have overall diffuse thinning and
» » cover my whole scalp since I stopped DUT. Not sure how many mg of RU
» per
» » day they used on those monkeys.
»
» They used various doses, but the largest one (I believe) was 0.5 mL of a
» 5% solution.

ok then that’s 25mg per application…a lot less than what I use, that explains the lack of systemic effects. A few months ago, I did some experiments at 1% of 10ml daily (100mg), and found that there was absolutely no systemic effects to notice but unfortunatlety the effects on hair were too weak, therfeore I had to increase the dosage.

» » My feeling is that the amounts were too small
» » to measure anything. One would have to use a lot more, in humans,
» » to draw final conclusions on systemic effects.
»
» I once did an estimate of how much RU58841 a typical human would use,
» based on the actual area of balding scalp to which it was applied in
» stumptailed macaques. If I remember correctly, I concluded that the
» traditional 1 mL (twice a day) of a 5% RU solution would be adequate for a
» typical human.

Bryan, there is just no way that 1 ml will be sufficient to properly cover the whole human scalp if you are an overall diffuse thinner, and still have some hair. Granted, a certain % of topical gets stuck into the hair, since I still have enough hair, so the whole 10ml I use is not absorbed in the skin.

» » So in my own case, we might suppose that roughly up to 4mg a day (1%)
» gets
» » converted into RU 56279 ,which it is eliminted very slowly and so does
» » build up.
»
» Again, El_Dut, stop trying to use logic to “guesstimate” what
» happens with topical RU58841. Use the experiments on living, breathing
» animals to make that determination.

Agreed… if the drug is designed to be used in animals only :slight_smile:

» » » Does that mean you also need to be on top PERIOD? :slight_smile:
» »
» » well…this is all part of the testing of RU…
»
» You didn’t get my joke? :slight_smile:

sort of…


#14

Duterino (or others)- When you have time or feel like it, could you explain, in the simplest terms, how do you mix/apply the RU stuff?

I have never done this, so when you say 5%, etc, that just blows over my head, I know it might sound stupid, but I’ve never had to mix anything before. I think you said once you mix it with water or alcohol, not exactly sure. Again, in the simplest term, like explaining it to a kid (although I’m not, ha!).

And you are still getting it from the chinese place, whatever their name was??

Thanks man, just trying to find a job soon so I can buy the Fluridil stuff and RU… the minox, Progesterone cream and SP is just getting me by for now but I want better stuff.


#15

very easy to mix it, it dissolves quite well in ethanol (everclear 96%) and propylene glycol (PG). I use 70% ETOH and 30% PG.

5% is 500mg if you use 10ml per application…depending on you hair loss type and lenght of hair you might use less, like 5ml or so.

I do mix a fresh amount of powder 5 minutes before I apply it, since shelf life of RU in a liquid mix might be short. I am seeing better results with fresh powder used at each application, instead of keeping the mix in the fridge for several days.This might also cut costs down since less powder is needed for the same results.

I now use 2% thats 200mg in 10ml. Need a precise digital balance.


#16

JWM,

On the keto cream, http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&q=ketoconazole+cream&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=PdYISqq2MKGstgeFs-DdCw&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=5&ct=title
Im assuming they will sell it to you without a prescript. I think Ive read about a keto mousse out there before. You’d have to look…

Bryan,

Since Im generally lazy (LOL), Ive been putting a topical in an area on the forehead above the right eyebrow that is about half the size of a credit card. When I test, I put a piece of sebutape above both eyebrows using the left forehead as a control. I leave them on for about 65-70 minutes. Then I go look closely in the mirror (I have a magnifying mirror that really makes things larger). Then I put them back on the card that they were on for a close look. I try to compare how many spots and especially the size of the spots on each tape vs. the other. 

 Like Ive said, nothing has jumped out at me at this point. Liang and Lao got a 70% reduction with pure EGCG after 6 days (twice a day application). So if I dont really see a pretty big reduction, its not all that noteworthy. 

 Believe me Bryan, I'd LOVE to test one of these things and get a "wow" result. I'd go buy a cheapie camera, take a pic of both the sebutape strips and eagerly post it on here, or even mail you a pic if you'd like. But I haven't run across anything noteworthy yet, just one tape with -slightly- less large dots than the other. Ive got some Crinagen ordered (they changed their formula and basically just use SP and zinc acetate as anti-androgens now------all that is in it now is this: Distilled water; Polysorbate 20; Azelaic Acid; Zinc Acetate Hydrate; Niacin; Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxal-5-phosphate); Saw Palmetto extract (serenoa repens); Ginkgo Biloba and a mild natural fragrance. ), and am going to definitely order some fluridil (probably tonight). Cedarwood oil alone, spiro, keto cream are also things I wouldn't mind testing if I dont find a winner beforehand.


  I sure wish some American company -here- would find a way to mix 4MA and RU together and sell it as a spray topical for about 30 bucks a month in about a 4oz bottle.......

#17

» » » BTW, fluridil is supposed to work BOTH ways: it blocks androgen
» » » receptors,
» » mmh…where did you read that ?
»
» The published article and study about fluridil.
»
The systemic antiandrogens hydroxyflutamide and bicalutamide, did not a affect the androgenic receptors significantly at any concentration after 48 hrs., while BP-776 suppressed androgenic receptors at 3 μM concentration within 16 hrs. and practically eliminated the androgenic receptors at 10 μM concentration by 48 hours. BP-34, the aromatic product of degradation of BP-766, had no effect on the androgenic receptors.

Bryan, I don’t see a mention of fluridil blocking the AR by binding…all it does is suppressing the AR.


#18

» We have an obligation to question those studies since they were
» done in animals only and using small amounts of the drug.

OF COURSE we need to be cautious about using the drug in humans. But the results in animals (including the stumptailed macaques) seem clear and unequivocal: there were no systemic effects at all. BTW, the macaques didn’t get “small amounts” of the drug. It was actually quite substantial, especially considering their lower body weight.

» Drawing final conclusions on animal studies only is not sufficient, Bryan.
» There needs to be independent, double blinded studies involving a large
» group of humans, not animals, and some should involve very large amounts of
» the drug as well. Until that step is reached, there are simply no arguments
» against drawing our own conclusions.

I suggest that you fully acknowledge all the scientific evidence that we do have available to us, which is that there have been no systemic effects at all in any of the animal studies using topical RU58841.

» Again, the scientific studies are incomplete.The effect of the metabolites
» are certainly not to be ignored.

Look, as long as you do acknowledge what we already know (that there was no systemic effect in any of the animal studies), you can go ahead and speculate all you want that maybe topical RU58841 will grow you a second head on your shoulders! :slight_smile:

» » They used various doses, but the largest one (I believe) was
» » 0.5 mL of a 5% solution.
»
» ok then that’s 25mg per application…a lot less than what I use, that
» explains the lack of systemic effects.

Hahah! The stumptailed macaques also WEIGH a lot less than you do, El_Dut! The amount of RU58841 on a per-kilogram body-weight basis was quite substantial.

BTW, I think you’re probably wasting a lot of that RU by using too much. The researchers in those macaque studies found that even a 0.5% solution was helpful to an important extent in the animals, by at least stopping further balding.

» A few months ago, I did some
» experiments at 1% of 10ml daily (100mg), and found that there was
» absolutely no systemic effects to notice but unfortunatlety the effects
» on hair were too weak, therfeore I had to increase the dosage.

What do you mean by “effects on hair”? How did you judge those effects?

» Bryan, there is just no way that 1 ml will be sufficient to properly cover
» the whole human scalp if you are an overall diffuse thinner, and still have
» some hair. Granted, a certain % of topical gets stuck into the hair, since
» I still have enough hair, so the whole 10ml I use is not absorbed in the
» skin.

Remember, I did say TYPICAL human. If you do need to cover your entire scalp, I’d imagine that a couple of milliliters would probably be sufficient.

» » You didn’t get my joke? :slight_smile:
»
» sort of…

Think of the other meaning of “on top”, as in: who gets on top? :slight_smile:


#19

» Bryan,
»
» Since Im generally lazy (LOL), Ive been putting a topical in an area
» on the forehead above the right eyebrow that is about half the size of a
» credit card. When I test, I put a piece of sebutape above both eyebrows
» using the left forehead as a control. I leave them on for about 65-70
» minutes. Then I go look closely in the mirror (I have a magnifying mirror
» that really makes things larger). Then I put them back on the card that
» they were on for a close look. I try to compare how many spots and
» especially the size of the spots on each tape vs. the other.

For god’s sake, Michael! Is THAT all you’re doing in your tests? Just measuring the sebum casual level on your skin?? Because you didn’t bother to go into any additional details other than just what you said above, I have to conclude that you don’t understand the difference between testing the sebum excretion rate and testing the sebum casual level. What I wanted you to do is give me a more DETAILED description of your procedure, like the way I described my own procedure in that link I provided for you in my post on HLT about my test of the “feedback theory”. Didn’t you even read it? :surprised:

» Like Ive said, nothing has jumped out at me at this point. Liang and
» Lao got a 70% reduction with pure EGCG after 6 days (twice a day
» application). So if I dont really see a pretty big reduction, its not all
» that noteworthy.

I don’t think Liang & Liao ever specified that they got a “70%” reduction is sebum. If we’re talking about the same trial, all they used was a Sebumeter, whose numerical results aren’t necessarily linear. They almost certainly did NOT get that big a reduction. But more importantly, they measured the sebum excretion rate, not the sebum casual level. The casual level isn’t as precise or as accurate (or as important, in my humble opinion) as the excretion rate.

» Believe me Bryan, I’d LOVE to test one of these things and get a
» “wow” result. I’d go buy a cheapie camera, take a pic of both the sebutape
» strips and eagerly post it on here, or even mail you a pic if you’d like.
» But I haven’t run across anything noteworthy yet, just one tape with
» -slightly- less large dots than the other.

That doesn’t surprise me any. If all you’ve been doing is measuring the casual level, I would expect you to get only mediocre, barely-noticeable results. Go back and read my own procedure in that link I supplied on HLT, and then do YOUR test in a similar way! :slight_smile:


#20

Im assuming that this is what you mean:

" Thereafter, I began a series of 9 Sebutape impressions, one every half-hour, for a total of 4 1/2 hours. I marked each test-strip with a “G”, followed by the numbers 1 through 9, to indicate that those were made during the “Grunge” or “Greasy” period! The numbers indicate the amount of time in half-hours following the de-fatting that the impression was made. For example, “G5” is on the strip that was made at the end of the grunge period, 2 1/2 hours after the de-fatting."

Putting on sebutape every half hour for a few hours and comparing the size of the dots from the treated forehead area vs. the untreated forehead area?

I was doing it by putting one strip on the untreated side, and one on the treated side, waiting about 65-70 minutes, and then comparing the two to see which one had larger (and more) dots.
I’ll try it your way once (putting them on for half an hour, washing, and doing it again in the next few days)…