» the interesting part is that while on the drug combi Psa levels in 4 out
» of 6 patients Kept going down , so it seems flutamide and finasteride where
» quite capable of managing that upregulated testosterone from tamoxifen. oh
» and in 3 out of 6 estradiol increased from 1.3 to 2.2 times the baseline.
» I like the idea of having the antiandrogens protecting my hair while
» tamoxifen protects my chest without touching my hair . Now lets see if it
» even actually helps.
I doubt that the tamoxifen is not “touching” your hair, and I particularly doubt that it’s actually helping. But I wouldn’t worry about it: I don’t think its effect would be all THAT harmful for your hair.
» » the interesting part is that while on the drug combi Psa levels in 4
» out
» » of 6 patients Kept going down , so it seems flutamide and finasteride
» where
» » quite capable of managing that upregulated testosterone from tamoxifen.
» oh
» » and in 3 out of 6 estradiol increased from 1.3 to 2.2 times the
» baseline.
» » I like the idea of having the antiandrogens protecting my hair while
» » tamoxifen protects my chest without touching my hair . Now lets see if
» it
» » even actually helps.
»
» I doubt that the tamoxifen is not “touching” your hair, and I particularly
» doubt that it’s actually helping. But I wouldn’t worry about it: I don’t
» think its effect would be all THAT harmful for your hair.
»
» .
if its not affecting ar positive prostatic cancer as psa levels indicate ,why can it touch my hair?
I found this one :
tamoxifen given alone significantly increased Testosterone but not oestradiol levels or the E2 over testosterone ratio.
BUT
I have allready shown things are quite different when you use tamoxifen with antiadrogen(s) together concerning estradiol levels.
» » if its not affecting ar positive prostatic cancer as psa levels
» » indicate, why can it touch my hair?
»
» You’re judging what effect you think it’s going to have on hair by
» looking at PSA levels?
»
» .
What im trying to find is the effect the upregulation of androgens has due to tamoxifen. And Psa is yet another route to do this cause these levels are affected by DHT binding on prostatic Ar . It seems that The antiandrogen(s) given together with Tamo do a great job at keeping the Androgen excess generated, from binding . Otherwise Psa would have gone up .
So yes this is an indirect way to predict what tamoxifen/antiandrogen combination will do to my hair
Wont a combination of an antiandrogen and antiestrogen nullify the effects of each other?
» » » if its not affecting ar positive prostatic cancer as psa levels
» » » indicate, why can it touch my hair?
» »
» » You’re judging what effect you think it’s going to have on hair
» by
» » looking at PSA levels?
» »
» » .
»
»
» What im trying to find is the effect the upregulation of androgens has due
» to tamoxifen. And Psa is yet another route to do this cause these levels
» are affected by DHT binding on prostatic Ar . It seems that The
» antiandrogen(s) given together with Tamo do a great job at keeping the
» Androgen excess generated, from binding . Otherwise Psa would have gone up
» .
»
» So yes this is an indirect way to predict what tamoxifen/antiandrogen
» combination will do to my hair
» Wont a combination of an antiandrogen and antiestrogen nullify the effects
» of each other?
well both studies i posted prove otherwise . And tamoxifen isnt estrogen antagonistic in all tissues . Its a SERM . It has antiestrogenic effect in breast tissue but acts as an estrogen on other tissues like the liver and bones etc.
»
»
» » » » if its not affecting ar positive prostatic cancer as psa levels
» » » » indicate, why can it touch my hair?
» » »
» » » You’re judging what effect you think it’s going to have on
» hair
» » by
» » » looking at PSA levels?
» » »
» » » .
» »
» »
» » What im trying to find is the effect the upregulation of androgens has
» due
» » to tamoxifen. And Psa is yet another route to do this cause these
» levels
» » are affected by DHT binding on prostatic Ar . It seems that The
» » antiandrogen(s) given together with Tamo do a great job at keeping the
» » Androgen excess generated, from binding . Otherwise Psa would have gone
» up
» » .
» »
» » So yes this is an indirect way to predict what tamoxifen/antiandrogen
» » combination will do to my hair
Fishy point, though: the key would be a sufficiently long joint treatment.
If I understand your point, you say that DHT and other male hormones increase thanks to tamox’ action that makes up for fin’s downregulation. Right. So, since fin is a DHT inhibitor and has no ability to bind to local androgenic receptors (all it can do is get in the way of 5ar), then hairloss should occur from this higher DHTserum level. You assume it does not because psa levels keep low values, which indicates low ar binding by DHT (that’s it?), at least in prostatic tissues. Well, why not… So, tamox would maintain a higher level of unbound male hormones, with the excpetion of SHBG though whose figures don’t go down.
By what miracle though could this happen?
We would need some feedback from such a treatment on the long run say 6-12months.
» What im trying to find is the effect the upregulation of androgens
» has due to tamoxifen. And Psa is yet another route to do this
» cause these levels are affected by DHT binding on prostatic Ar .
» It seems that The antiandrogen(s) given together with Tamo do a
» great job at keeping the Androgen excess generated, from binding .
» Otherwise Psa would have gone up.
But it’s the finasteride and flutamide that are lowering the PSA. What effect the tamoxifen is having on PSA (if any) remains to be seen. It would have been interesting to see what further effect the tamoxifen had on serum androgen levels, but unfortunately they didn’t report that. I think it’s safe to say that the finasteride and flutamide were keeping the PSA low DESPITE the (probable?) increase in serum androgens that it produced, not BECAUSE of it.
» So yes this is an indirect way to predict what tamoxifen/antiandrogen
» combination will do to my hair
Not really. The tamoxifen remains a relatively unknown factor. Theoretically it should hurt your hair a bit, but I don’t think it’s a significant enough factor to worry about.
» Fishy point, though: the key would be a sufficiently long joint
» treatment.
» If I understand your point, you say that DHT and other male hormones
» increase thanks to tamox’ action that makes up for fin’s downregulation.
No, he’s saying that SERUM TESTOSTERONE goes up, not serum DHT. The finasteride is keeping the production of DHT suppressed.
» Right. So, since fin is a DHT inhibitor and has no ability to bind to local
» androgenic receptors (all it can do is get in the way of 5ar), then
» hairloss should occur from this higher DHTserum level.
As above: there is no higher serum DHT level. That stays low.
BTW, to avoid confusion in discussions like this, let’s call finasteride what it actually IS: it’s a 5a-reductase inhibitor, not a “DHT inhibitor”. That last expression is confusing and ambiguous.
» You assume it does
» not because psa levels keep low values, which indicates low ar binding by
» DHT (that’s it?), at least in prostatic tissues. Well, why not… So, tamox
» would maintain a higher level of unbound male hormones, with the excpetion
» of SHBG though whose figures don’t go down.
» By what miracle though could this happen?
» » What im trying to find is the effect the upregulation of androgens
» » has due to tamoxifen. And Psa is yet another route to do this
» » cause these levels are affected by DHT binding on prostatic Ar .
» » It seems that The antiandrogen(s) given together with Tamo do a
» » great job at keeping the Androgen excess generated, from binding .
» » Otherwise Psa would have gone up.
»
» But it’s the finasteride and flutamide that are lowering the PSA. What
» effect the tamoxifen is having on PSA (if any) remains to be seen.
Psa further decreased 24% from baseline in the antiandrogen/tamoxifen combo.That is the effect tamoxifen is having on PSA while on the antiadrogen. None, or minimal. Well at least not enough to be documented in the first three months the study shows.
» It would have been interesting to see what further effect the tamoxifen had on
» serum androgen levels, but unfortunately they didn’t report that. I think
» it’s safe to say that the finasteride and flutamide were keeping the PSA
» low DESPITE the (probable?) increase in serum androgens that it produced,
» not BECAUSE of it.
I defenately agree on this .
»
» » So yes this is an indirect way to predict what tamoxifen/antiandrogen
» » combination will do to my hair
»
» Not really. The tamoxifen remains a relatively unknown factor.
» Theoretically it should hurt your hair a bit, but I don’t think it’s
» a significant enough factor to worry about.
Well the reason im reflecting uppon whether or not Tamo(together with the antiandrogens im taking) can hurt my hair , In theory and in practice , a bit or devastatingly lot, is cos of all this extra estrogen circulating .And I know thats good for hair. 315% increase in estradiol .
» » Fishy point, though: the key would be a sufficiently long joint
» » treatment.
» » If I understand your point, you say that DHT and other male hormones
» » increase thanks to tamox’ action that makes up for fin’s
» downregulation.
»
» No, he’s saying that SERUM TESTOSTERONE goes up, not serum DHT. The
» finasteride is keeping the production of DHT suppressed.
»
» » Right. So, since fin is a DHT inhibitor and has no ability to bind to
» local
» » androgenic receptors (all it can do is get in the way of 5ar), then
» » hairloss should occur from this higher DHTserum level.
»
» As above: there is no higher serum DHT level. That stays low.
»
» BTW, to avoid confusion in discussions like this, let’s call finasteride
» what it actually IS: it’s a 5a-reductase inhibitor, not a “DHT inhibitor”.
» That last expression is confusing and ambiguous.
»
» » You assume it does
» » not because psa levels keep low values, which indicates low ar binding
» by
» » DHT (that’s it?), at least in prostatic tissues. Well, why not… So,
» tamox
» » would maintain a higher level of unbound male hormones, with the
» excpetion
» » of SHBG though whose figures don’t go down.
» » By what miracle though could this happen?
»
» By the miracle of flutamide.
»
» .
No, Brian, look at the figures again: http://www.nature.com/pcan/journal/v8/n1/fig_tab/4500782t2.html#figure-title
Dht is definitely up. So why should hairloss not increase? That’s Nicolakekis’ point. Tamox elevates levels of both male and female unbound hormones. Why?
» » But it’s the finasteride and flutamide that are lowering the PSA. What
» » effect the tamoxifen is having on PSA (if any) remains to be seen.
»
» Psa further decreased 24% from baseline in the antiandrogen/tamoxifen
» combo.That is the effect tamoxifen is having on PSA while on the
» antiadrogen. None, or minimal. Well at least not enough to be documented
» in the first three months the study shows.
»
» http://www.nature.com/pcan/journal/v8/n1/fig_tab/4500782t4.html#figure-title
That’s a different study than the one you first referenced with flutamide and finasteride.
In any event, PSA wasn’t “further decreased” by 24% by the tamoxifen. I think you’re misreading the study! The tamoxifen RAISED the PSA a little bit, and prevented the bicalutamide from being as effective as it would have been by itself (bicalutamide alone lowered PSA by 30%, whereas bicalutamide + tamoxifen lowered PSA by only 24%).
» hey ppl take a look at this . A study about gynecomastia and breast pain
» while taking bicalutamide (casodex) with tamoxifen . I was searching to
» find what happens in someones hormone profile when taking an antiadrogen
» and an anti estrogen together cos im fighting gynecomastia my self. Now im
» Not using Bicalutamide but spironolactone(200mg) and finasteride(5mg) but
» what i found interesting is even though tamo caused a spike in androgens ,
» both free testosterone , DHT and total , it also upregulated circulating
» estradiol .
»
»
» Why did you stop to use bicalutamide (casodex)and switched to spironolactone(200mg)? As far as i know they got same sides but bicalutamide (casodex)not suppose to damage your liver.
Thank you
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