Tamoxifen with avodart

I’ve already mentioned this small study two or three times, and I used to have a link to a PDF file of it, but now I can’t find it. But here’s the full text of it, at least, even if you can’t see the graphs they include with it: “Estrogens and Human Scalp Hair Growth — Still More Questions than Answers”. It’s a letter to the editor in: J Invest Dermatol 2004 MAr; 122(3): 840-842. I’ve put a critical passage or two in bold text.

To the Editor:

While it is undisputed that estrogens (17-b-estradiol, E2) can profoundly modulate hair growth in practically all mammalian species investigated, usually exhibiting hair growth inhibitory properties (Emmens, 1942; Williams et al, 1946; Stumpf et al, 1974; Ebling et al, 1991; Smart et al, 1999; Chanda et al, 2000), it is still rather unclear what exactly E2 administration does to human scalp hair growth.

Given the profound clinical relevance of this question and the frequent use of E2-containing topical preparations in trichological practise (Sinclair, 1999; Sterry and Paus, 2000), this question deserves a more careful and more systematic dissection than it has experienced in the past. This letter calls attention to a few salient points that should be taken into account in this respect.

For human scalp hair, topical E2 has long been used in the management of telogen effluvium and androgenetic alopecia, especially in women (Wustner and Orfanos, 1974; Schuhmacher-Stock, 1981; Sterry and Paus, 2000). Even though this remains to be unequivocally proven in vivo, it is felt that E2 inhibits hair shaft formation, thus lowering the rate of hair growth, i.e., how much new hair shaft is generated by the anagen hair bulb per time unit, yest prolongs anagen duration, thus decreasing the telogen rate (Schuhmacher-Stock, 1981; Sinclair et al, 1999). This would help to explain the clinical observation that topical E2 or high systemic E2 levels during estrogen-based contraception and during pregnancy increase the telogen/anagen ratio, thus notably improving a pre-existing telogen effluvium, while causing a telogen effluvium postpartum supposedly due to E2 withdrawal (Lynfield, 1960; Barnum et al, 1969; Ebling et al, 1991). In view of the very complex, multiple concomitant endocrine changes during and after pregnancy and lactation (including, e.g., dramatic fluctuations in gestagen and prolactin levels (Braunstein, 2003), it is however exceedingly difficult to dissociate strictly E2-based hair growth effects from those that other hormones might exert on the human scalp hair follicle in vivo during this time.

Therefore, it is reasonable to explore the isolated effects of E2 on human hair shaft elongation, anagen duration, and hair follicle keratinocyte proliferation/apoptosis in micro-dissected human anagen VI scalp hair follicles that are organ-cultured according to the method pioneered by Philpott et al (1990)-in the absence of the sebaceous gland, a key compartment for steroid hormone synthesis and metabolism (Zouboulis, 2000). We found only two corresponding reports in the published literature, one using human anagen hair follicles from an unspecified scalp skin location of what appears to be two male individuals aged 17 and 35 y (Kondo et al, 1990), and one recent meeting abstract based on the use of female occipital scalp skin follicles (Nelson et al, 2003). Both studies report that E2 (Kondo et al: 18 nM; Nelson et al: 10 nM), significantly inhibits human scalp hair shaft elongation in vitro. In addition, Kondo et al (1990) report that E2 does not influence the “decay rate” of organ-cultured human anagen hair follicles (as measured by morphology and autoradiographic 3H-thymidine incorporation).

Recently, we have also studied the effects of E2 (1 nM - 1 uM, Sigma St. Louis, MO) on female occipital scalp hair follicles, and have essentially confirmed hair shaft elongation-inhibitory properties of E2, which were maximal at 1 uM (Ohnemus et al, 2003). In view of the extreme dependence of androgen effects on the exact integumental location of human hair follicles however (Ebling, 1991; Jahoda and Reynolds, 1996), we were curious to learn whether E2 effects on human scalp hair follicles are location- and/or sex-dependent. This has already been demonstrated for the E2 response of pelage hair follicles from mice and rats, which is profoundly influenced by sex and body site (Emmens, 1942; Mohn, 1958).

Therefore, we have investigated in a single, large, fronto-temporal scalp skin sample (healthy male individual, no medications, 46 y; obtained with informed consent during routine facelift plastic surgery; all experiments were performed in order to the Declaration of Helsinki Principles) how E2 addition to the medium (1-100 nM, Sigma, diluted in serum-free William’s E medium, supplemented with l-glutamine, penicillin, streptomycin, insulin, and hydrocortisone) affected hair shaft elongation, anagen duration, hair follicle pigmentation and hair matrix keratinocyte proliferation in microdissected, organ-cultured male anagen VI hair follicles from the frontotemporal scalp skin region.

Surprisingly, compared to the vehicle control, the hair shaft elongation of male frontotemporal scalp hair follicles was significantly stimulated by 1-100 nM E2 already as early as 1 d after the start of the organ culture, and this stimulation became even more pronounced at the end of organ culture (days 7 and 9) (Fig 1). This stimulation of hair shaft formation (which is the result of stringently coordinated proliferation and differentiation of hair matrix keratinocytes (Stenn and Paus, 2001) corresponded to a significant stimulation of hair matrix keratinocyte proliferation by 10 nM E2 at day 9 (average number of Ki-positive-cells: in the control group 14 cells (SEM 3.21) and 26 cells in the E2-treated (10 nM) group (SEM 4.38); level of significance: p<0.05, Mann-Whitney test). While no evident differences were noted by H&E or Fontana-Masson histochemistry between E2 and vehicle-treated hair follicles in the hair follicle pigmentary unit or in the degree of hair follicle degeneration during organ culture (data not shown), a slight, though not statistically significant, anagen-prolonging effect of E2 was seen in E2-treated test hair follicles as compared to vehicle controls (data not shown).

Therefore, organ-cultured male frontotemporal scalp hair follicles in vitro respond to E2 treatment (by a mode of of E2 administration that mimics systemic drug application) with a stimulation of both hair shaft generation and of hair matrix keratinocyte proliferation, and a tendency towards anagen prolongation, while no hair pigmentation effects are seen. This is in line with the ill-documented, but widely shared clinical experience of topically applied E2 on the male scalp in vivo (i.e., hair growth stimulation; Shumacher-Stock, 1981) and supports the anagen-prolonging effect of E2.

Our observation in a single, yet carefully analyzed male patient* (*Note added in proof: The stimulation of male frontotemporal hair follicles by E2 reported here (Fig 1) was just confirmed by us using frontotemporal hair follicles from a second male patient.) raises five basic questions that must be addressed much more systematically by subsequent work on the effects of E2 on human hair growth in order to better explain the seemingly contradictory results obtained with occipital (Kondo et al, 1990; Nelson et al, 2003) versus frontotemporal scalp hair follicles (Fig 1):

  1. What are the differences between male and female hair follicles with respect to estrogen receptor (ER-a, ER-b) expression (Thornton, 2003) and aromatase activity (Sawya and Price, 1997; Hoffmann, 2001, 2002)?

  2. How do occipital and frontotemporal hair follicles, as well as various other integumental sites, differ from each other in this respect?

  3. Is there any indication that E2 exerts similarly “paradoxical, site-dependent” effects on human hair growth as androgens (Jahoda and Reynolds, 1996)? Does the signalling and gene expression response of a defined human hair follicle population to E2 stimulation differ in a stringently location-dependent manner, as has been postulated, e.g., for the response of beard versus scalp follicles to androgen stimulation with respect to TGFb1 expression in the dermal papilla (Inui et al, 2002)?

  4. Which important regional differences in the extrafollicular estrogen metabolism of defined integumental sites must be taken into account when estrogens are administered topically (e.g., with respect to epidermal, sebaceous, and dermal activities of key enzymes like aromatase, 17b-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, or steroid sulfatase)?

  5. How is ER expression and/or the metabolism of topically applied estrogens in loco influenced by the choice of vehicle?

Only when these basic questions are finally addressed systematically can we expect to solve the ancient enigma of what estrogens really do to human hair growth in a defined integumental site in vivo, on the scalp and elsewhere, and can rationally select estrogen receptor ligands for therapeutically desired hair growth modulation.

Franziska Conrad, Ulrich Ohnemus, Eniko Bodo, Albrecht Bettermann, and Ralf Paus

» I’ve already mentioned this small study two or three times, and I used to
» have a link to a PDF file of it, but now I can’t find it. But here’s the
» full text of it, at least, even if you can’t see the graphs they include
» with it: “Estrogens and Human Scalp Hair Growth — Still More Questions
» than Answers”. It’s a letter to the editor in: J Invest Dermatol 2004 MAr;
» 122(3): 840-842. I’ve put a critical passage or two in bold text.
»
»
» To the Editor:
»
» While it is undisputed that estrogens (17-b-estradiol, E2) can profoundly
» modulate hair growth in practically all mammalian species investigated,
» usually exhibiting hair growth inhibitory properties (Emmens, 1942;
» Williams et al, 1946; Stumpf et al, 1974; Ebling et al, 1991; Smart et al,
» 1999; Chanda et al, 2000), it is still rather unclear what exactly E2
» administration does to human scalp hair growth.
»
» Given the profound clinical relevance of this question and the frequent
» use of E2-containing topical preparations in trichological practise
» (Sinclair, 1999; Sterry and Paus, 2000), this question deserves a more
» careful and more systematic dissection than it has experienced in the
» past. This letter calls attention to a few salient points that should be
» taken into account in this respect.
»
» For human scalp hair, topical E2 has long been used in the management of
» telogen effluvium and androgenetic alopecia, especially in women (Wustner
» and Orfanos, 1974; Schuhmacher-Stock, 1981; Sterry and Paus, 2000). Even
» though this remains to be unequivocally proven in vivo, it is felt that E2
» inhibits hair shaft formation, thus lowering the rate of hair growth, i.e.,
» how much new hair shaft is generated by the anagen hair bulb per time unit,
» yest prolongs anagen duration, thus decreasing the telogen rate
» (Schuhmacher-Stock, 1981; Sinclair et al, 1999). This would help to
» explain the clinical observation that topical E2 or high systemic E2
» levels during estrogen-based contraception and during pregnancy increase
» the telogen/anagen ratio, thus notably improving a pre-existing telogen
» effluvium, while causing a telogen effluvium postpartum supposedly due to
» E2 withdrawal (Lynfield, 1960; Barnum et al, 1969; Ebling et al, 1991). In
» view of the very complex, multiple concomitant endocrine changes during and
» after pregnancy and lactation (including, e.g., dramatic fluctuations in
» gestagen and prolactin levels (Braunstein, 2003), it is however
» exceedingly difficult to dissociate strictly E2-based hair growth effects
» from those that other hormones might exert on the human scalp hair
» follicle in vivo during this time.
»
» Therefore, it is reasonable to explore the isolated effects of E2 on human
» hair shaft elongation, anagen duration, and hair follicle keratinocyte
» proliferation/apoptosis in micro-dissected human anagen VI scalp hair
» follicles that are organ-cultured according to the method pioneered by
» Philpott et al (1990)-in the absence of the sebaceous gland, a key
» compartment for steroid hormone synthesis and metabolism (Zouboulis,
» 2000). We found only two corresponding reports in the published
» literature, one using human anagen hair follicles from an unspecified
» scalp skin location of what appears to be two male individuals aged 17 and
» 35 y (Kondo et al, 1990), and one recent meeting abstract based on the use
» of female occipital scalp skin follicles (Nelson et al, 2003). Both
» studies report that E2 (Kondo et al: 18 nM; Nelson et al: 10 nM),
» significantly inhibits human scalp hair shaft elongation in vitro. In
» addition, Kondo et al (1990) report that E2 does not influence the “decay
» rate” of organ-cultured human anagen hair follicles (as measured by
» morphology and autoradiographic 3H-thymidine incorporation).
»
» Recently, we have also studied the effects of E2 (1 nM - 1 uM, Sigma St.
» Louis, MO) on female occipital scalp hair follicles, and have essentially
» confirmed hair shaft elongation-inhibitory properties of E2, which were
» maximal at 1 uM (Ohnemus et al, 2003). In view of the extreme dependence
» of androgen effects on the exact integumental location of human hair
» follicles however (Ebling, 1991; Jahoda and Reynolds, 1996), we were
» curious to learn whether E2 effects on human scalp hair follicles are
» location- and/or sex-dependent. This has already been demonstrated for the
» E2 response of pelage hair follicles from mice and rats, which is
» profoundly influenced by sex and body site (Emmens, 1942; Mohn, 1958).
»
» Therefore, we have investigated in a single, large, fronto-temporal scalp
» skin sample (healthy male individual, no medications, 46 y; obtained with
» informed consent during routine facelift plastic surgery; all experiments
» were performed in order to the Declaration of Helsinki Principles) how E2
» addition to the medium (1-100 nM, Sigma, diluted in serum-free William’s E
» medium, supplemented with l-glutamine, penicillin, streptomycin, insulin,
» and hydrocortisone) affected hair shaft elongation, anagen duration, hair
» follicle pigmentation and hair matrix keratinocyte proliferation in
» microdissected, organ-cultured male anagen VI hair follicles from the
» frontotemporal scalp skin region.
»
» Surprisingly, compared to the vehicle control, the hair shaft
» elongation of male frontotemporal scalp hair follicles was significantly
» stimulated by 1-100 nM E2 already as early as 1 d after the start of the
» organ culture, and this stimulation became even more pronounced at the end
» of organ culture (days 7 and 9) (Fig 1).
This stimulation of hair shaft
» formation (which is the result of stringently coordinated proliferation and
» differentiation of hair matrix keratinocytes (Stenn and Paus, 2001)
» corresponded to a significant stimulation of hair matrix keratinocyte
» proliferation by 10 nM E2 at day 9 (average number of Ki-positive-cells:
» in the control group 14 cells (SEM 3.21) and 26 cells in the E2-treated
» (10 nM) group (SEM 4.38); level of significance: p<0.05, Mann-Whitney
» test). While no evident differences were noted by H&E or Fontana-Masson
» histochemistry between E2 and vehicle-treated hair follicles in the hair
» follicle pigmentary unit or in the degree of hair follicle degeneration
» during organ culture (data not shown), a slight, though not statistically
» significant, anagen-prolonging effect of E2 was seen in E2-treated test
» hair follicles as compared to vehicle controls (data not shown).
»
» Therefore, organ-cultured male frontotemporal scalp hair follicles in
» vitro respond to E2 treatment (by a mode of of E2 administration that
» mimics systemic drug application) with a stimulation of both hair shaft
» generation and of hair matrix keratinocyte proliferation, and a tendency
» towards anagen prolongation, while no hair pigmentation effects are seen.
» This is in line with the ill-documented, but widely shared clinical
» experience of topically applied E2 on the male scalp in vivo (i.e., hair
» growth stimulation; Shumacher-Stock, 1981) and supports the
» anagen-prolonging effect of E2.

»
» Our observation in a single, yet carefully analyzed male patient*
» (*Note added in proof: The stimulation of male frontotemporal hair
» follicles by E2 reported here (Fig 1) was just confirmed by us using
» frontotemporal hair follicles from a second male patient.
) raises five
» basic questions that must be addressed much more systematically by
» subsequent work on the effects of E2 on human hair growth in order to
» better explain the seemingly contradictory results obtained with occipital
» (Kondo et al, 1990; Nelson et al, 2003) versus frontotemporal scalp hair
» follicles (Fig 1):
»
» 1. What are the differences between male and female hair follicles with
» respect to estrogen receptor (ER-a, ER-b) expression (Thornton, 2003) and
» aromatase activity (Sawya and Price, 1997; Hoffmann, 2001, 2002)?
»
» 2. How do occipital and frontotemporal hair follicles, as well as various
» other integumental sites, differ from each other in this respect?
»
» 3. Is there any indication that E2 exerts similarly “paradoxical,
» site-dependent” effects on human hair growth as androgens (Jahoda and
» Reynolds, 1996)? Does the signalling and gene expression response of a
» defined human hair follicle population to E2 stimulation differ in a
» stringently location-dependent manner, as has been postulated, e.g., for
» the response of beard versus scalp follicles to androgen stimulation with
» respect to TGFb1 expression in the dermal papilla (Inui et al, 2002)?
»
» 4. Which important regional differences in the extrafollicular estrogen
» metabolism of defined integumental sites must be taken into account when
» estrogens are administered topically (e.g., with respect to epidermal,
» sebaceous, and dermal activities of key enzymes like aromatase,
» 17b-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, or steroid sulfatase)?
»
» 5. How is ER expression and/or the metabolism of topically applied
» estrogens in loco influenced by the choice of vehicle?
»
» Only when these basic questions are finally addressed systematically can
» we expect to solve the ancient enigma of what estrogens really do to human
» hair growth in a defined integumental site in vivo, on the scalp and
» elsewhere, and can rationally select estrogen receptor ligands for
» therapeutically desired hair growth modulation.
»
» Franziska Conrad, Ulrich Ohnemus, Eniko Bodo, Albrecht Bettermann, and
» Ralf Paus

Bryan,

Yep I read this paper as well as many others.

To me the heading and first paragraph seem to argue against your interpretation; “More Questions than answers” and “…usually exhibiting hair growth inhibitory properties”.

What I dislike about this study as a basis of hard conclusions is that the sample count is 1 (ok maybe 2) and it doesn’t even say if the guy was displaying MPB!

Hardly scientific.

» Bryan,
»
» Yep I read this paper as well as many others.
»
» To me the heading and first paragraph seem to argue against your
» interpretation; “More Questions than answers” and “…usually
» exhibiting hair growth inhibitory properties”.

Also, notice their use of the word “surprising” when they first mention the growth stimulation of estrogen in their own experiment. That, together with the part about “More Questions than Answers…”, is a simple acknowledgement of an affront to the authors’ longstanding assumption (along with that of many others) that estrogen doesn’t have an OPPOSITE effect on hair follicles (just like androgens do), depending on the specific site of the hair follicles. Give them a little credit for being extremely cautious and conservative when they come face-to-face with an entirely new medical paradigm! :wink:

Their wording doesn’t “argue against” the evidence that they saw with their own eyes, it’s just an acknowledgement of the surprise they felt from confronting such a completely new paradigm. Something completely different for THEM, anyway: Dr. Proctor has been discussing that issue for years on alt.baldspot (that androgens AND estrogens show paradoxically opposite site-specific effects on hair follicles)! :stuck_out_tongue:

» What I dislike about this study as a basis of hard conclusions is that the
» sample count is 1 (ok maybe 2) and it doesn’t even say if the guy was
» displaying MPB!

Oh, is THAT your only defense against all this evidence? That these 2 very carefully tested case studies (along with the many more subjects from the Kiesewetter studies, not to mention the countless examples of successful topical estrogen use from Europe) are just statistical flukes? Come on, GC, you can do better than that.

Well…I take that back: maybe that IS the best you can do! :smiley:

» » Bryan,
» »
» » Yep I read this paper as well as many others.
» »
» » To me the heading and first paragraph seem to argue against your
» » interpretation; “More Questions than answers” and “…usually
» » exhibiting hair growth inhibitory properties”.
»
» Also, notice their use of the word “surprising” when they first mention
» the growth stimulation of estrogen in their own experiment. That,
» together with the part about “More Questions than Answers…”, is a simple
» acknowledgement of an affront to the authors’ longstanding assumption
» (along with that of many others) that estrogen doesn’t have an OPPOSITE
» effect on hair follicles (just like androgens do), depending on the
» specific site of the hair follicles. Give them a little credit for
» being extremely cautious and conservative when they come face-to-face with
» an entirely new medical paradigm! :wink:
»
» Their wording doesn’t “argue against” the evidence that they saw with
» their own eyes, it’s just an acknowledgement of the surprise they felt
» from confronting such a completely new paradigm. Something completely
» different for THEM, anyway: Dr. Proctor has been discussing that issue
» for years on alt.baldspot (that androgens AND estrogens show paradoxically
» opposite site-specific effects on hair follicles)! :stuck_out_tongue:
»
» » What I dislike about this study as a basis of hard conclusions is that
» the
» » sample count is 1 (ok maybe 2) and it doesn’t even say if the guy was
» » displaying MPB!
»
» Oh, is THAT your only defense against all this evidence? That these 2
» very carefully tested case studies (along with the many more subjects from
» the Kiesewetter studies, not to mention the countless examples of
» successful topical estrogen use from Europe) are just statistical
» flukes
? Come on, GC, you can do better than that.
»
» Well…I take that back: maybe that IS the best you can do! :smiley:

Bryan,

So now the reason the researchers are careful is because the weight of scientific literature has been stating Estrogen is bad; but I thought your position was that it overwhelmingly supported that estrogen was good?

Which is your position on the balance of scientific literature, I am confused?

You do seem to ignore the 2 research papers that report that Estrogen clearly inhibit telogen to anagen transition, and the groing evidence of the different roles of ER-alpha, ER-beta and ER-INS.

Instead you come out firing with a paper based on a statistically irrelevant test; sample size = 1 (or 2) and where the sample is questionable in terms of MPB history.

Hardly a convincing case!

Please put the text of the other paper you ref and the forum readers will see other waek science at work. I read it; nothing convincing.

» Bryan,
»
» So now the reason the researchers are careful is because the weight of
» scientific literature has been stating Estrogen is bad; but I thought your
» position was that it overwhelmingly supported that estrogen was good?

I’ve already explained that to you: it 100% supports the new paradigm that estrogen is GOOD for scalp hair, BAD for body hair. But those researchers simply didn’t understand (until now) that estrogen’s effect on hair is SITE SPECIFIC. That’s why they were surprised by their results, and caught unawares.

» Which is your position on the balance of scientific literature, I am
» confused?

As above.

» You do seem to ignore the 2 research papers that report that Estrogen
» clearly inhibit telogen to anagen transition, and the groing evidence of
» the different roles of ER-alpha, ER-beta and ER-INS.

What 2 research papers are you referring to?

» Instead you come out firing with a paper based on a statistically
» irrelevant test; sample size = 1 (or 2) and where the sample is
» questionable in terms of MPB history.
»
» Hardly a convincing case!

2 cases? Huh?? Altogether, there must be hundreds (if not thousands) of test-subjects in the full body of work supporting estrogen as a treatment for MPB. I’ve already explained the numbers to you.

» » Bryan,
» »
» » So now the reason the researchers are careful is because the weight of
» » scientific literature has been stating Estrogen is bad; but I thought
» your
» » position was that it overwhelmingly supported that estrogen was good?
»
» I’ve already explained that to you: it 100% supports the new paradigm
» that estrogen is GOOD for scalp hair, BAD for body hair. But those
» researchers simply didn’t understand (until now) that estrogen’s effect on
» hair is SITE SPECIFIC. That’s why they were surprised by their results,
» and caught unawares.
»
» » Which is your position on the balance of scientific literature, I am
» » confused?
»
» As above.
»
» » You do seem to ignore the 2 research papers that report that Estrogen
» » clearly inhibit telogen to anagen transition, and the groing evidence
» of
» » the different roles of ER-alpha, ER-beta and ER-INS.
»
» What 2 research papers are you referring to?
»
» » Instead you come out firing with a paper based on a statistically
» » irrelevant test; sample size = 1 (or 2) and where the sample is
» » questionable in terms of MPB history.
» »
» » Hardly a convincing case!
»
» 2 cases? Huh?? Altogether, there must be hundreds (if not thousands) of
» test-subjects in the full body of work supporting estrogen as a treatment
» for MPB. I’ve already explained the numbers to you.

Bryan, in 3 sentences you contradict yourself.

Para 1: it 100% supports the new paradigm that estrogen is GOOD.

Para 3: the full body of work supporting estrogen as a treatment for MPB.

So is it new that Estrogen is good or is it the old thinking supported by a full body of work?

Most of the refenreces you pointed me at were either inconclusive or related to treating womens hair-loss. I repeat that the one you chose to print in full had a sample size of 1!

Re the site specific stuff; of course this is understood now, as is the fact that there are 3 types of Estrogen Receptors.

» Bryan, in 3 sentences you contradict yourself.
»
» Para 1: it 100% supports the new paradigm that estrogen is GOOD.
»
» Para 3: the full body of work supporting estrogen as a treatment for
» MPB.

»
» So is it new that Estrogen is good or is it the old thinking supported by
» a full body of work?

I didn’t contradict myself. Estrogen is good for scalp hair, bad for body hair, which I’ve been saying for years.

It’s a relatively new idea among the medical establishment that estrogen is good for scalp hair. Previously, the general assumption appears to have been (in most quarters) that just because estrogen is bad for body hair, it must also be bad for scalp hair.

» Most of the refenreces you pointed me at were either inconclusive or
» related to treating womens hair-loss. I repeat that the one you chose to
» print in full had a sample size of 1!

And I repeat that the total body of work supporting the use of estrogen for MPB probably numbers at least in the hundreds of subjects. The relatively recent Ohnemus et al and the older Kiesewetter et al studies showing a direct in vitro growth-stimulating effect of estrogen (to support the many in vivo studies done in Europe) probably number in the tens of subjects, adding to the hundreds (or possibly thousands) of subjects used in the in vivo experiments.

» » Bryan, in 3 sentences you contradict yourself.
» »
» » Para 1: it 100% supports the new paradigm that estrogen is GOOD.
»
» »
» » Para 3: the full body of work supporting estrogen as a treatment for
» » MPB.

» »
» » So is it new that Estrogen is good or is it the old thinking supported
» by
» » a full body of work?
»
» I didn’t contradict myself. Estrogen is good for scalp hair, bad for body
» hair, which I’ve been saying for years.
»
» It’s a relatively new idea among the medical establishment that estrogen
» is good for scalp hair. Previously, the general assumption appears to
» have been (in most quarters) that just because estrogen is bad for body
» hair, it must also be bad for scalp hair.
»
» » Most of the refenreces you pointed me at were either inconclusive or
» » related to treating womens hair-loss. I repeat that the one you chose
» to
» » print in full had a sample size of 1!
»
» And I repeat that the total body of work supporting the use of estrogen
» for MPB probably numbers at least in the hundreds of subjects. The
» relatively recent Ohnemus et al and the older Kiesewetter et
» al
studies showing a direct in vitro growth-stimulating effect
» of estrogen (to support the many in vivo studies done in Europe)
» probably number in the tens of subjects, adding to the hundreds (or
» possibly thousands) of subjects used in the in vivo experiments.

Then we interpret the research in different ways and I look forward to reviewing again in 2 years:D

» Then we interpret the research in different ways and I look forward
» to reviewing again in 2 years:D

As I’ve pointed out several times over the past several days, all the available research and evidence supports the new paradigm 100%. Not just some of it or even most of it, but all of it. I’m not aware of any conflicting evidence at all in the published medical literature. So what other way IS there to “interpret” the fact that estrogen has been shown to stimulate the growth of human scalp hair follicles? :wink:

More generally, I’m puzzled about why it is you are so stubborn about accepting scientific research. You told me earlier that you would look at the evidence “with an open mind”, but not by any stretch of the imagination have you done that. Why not? Are you so stuck in your anti-estrogen mode that you will simply NEVER be able to accept the scientific evidence, no matter how much of it ever comes out?

» » Then we interpret the research in different ways and I look forward
» » to reviewing again in 2 years:D
»
» As I’ve pointed out several times over the past several days, all the
» available research and evidence supports the new paradigm 100%.
» Not just some of it or even most of it, but all of it. I’m not
» aware of any conflicting evidence at all in the published medical
» literature. So what other way IS there to “interpret” the fact that
» estrogen has been shown to stimulate the growth of human scalp hair
» follicles? :wink:
»
» More generally, I’m puzzled about why it is you are so stubborn about
» accepting scientific research. You told me earlier that you would look at
» the evidence “with an open mind”, but not by any stretch of the imagination
» have you done that. Why not? Are you so stuck in your anti-estrogen mode
» that you will simply NEVER be able to accept the scientific evidence, no
» matter how much of it ever comes out?

Back at ya!

I sent you a paper that specifically referneced E2 inhibited anagen; yet you seem to believe that is a positive thing. How can inhibiting anagen be benefitial for hair? Did you read this statement in the paper I sent you?

ER-alpha and ER-beta clearly exhibit different behaviour, yet you only look at one side. Do you believe that ER-alpha and ER-beta are both positive in E2 response?

» I sent you a paper that specifically referneced E2 inhibited anagen;

I haven’t received any paper. How did you send it? Did you email it to me? If so, how did you get my email address?

» ER-alpha and ER-beta clearly exhibit different behaviour, yet you only
» look at one side. Do you believe that ER-alpha and ER-beta are both
» positive in E2 response?

Probably, but I don’t really know for sure. All I know is that the effect of estrogen on scalp hair follicles seems to be definitely beneficial.

» » I sent you a paper that specifically referneced E2 inhibited anagen;
»
» I haven’t received any paper. How did you send it? Did you email it to
» me? If so, how did you get my email address?
»
» » ER-alpha and ER-beta clearly exhibit different behaviour, yet you only
» » look at one side. Do you believe that ER-alpha and ER-beta are both
» » positive in E2 response?
»
» Probably, but I don’t really know for sure. All I know is that the effect
» of estrogen on scalp hair follicles seems to be definitely beneficial.

It was the german paper I referenced on the other thread; you said you saw nothing in it, yet it clearly stated that Estrogen inhibits anagen.

Similarly on HLT (the thread you pointed me at) there was another published paper posted that claimed Estrogen was bad for MPB; your argument was simply that “That guy has always had a negative position re Estrogen”. Two points on this;

  1. You obviously discounted this paper in your 100% claim. What you really meant was “100% of papers that Bryan agrees with supports Bryan’s position that Estrogen is a good thing!” :smiley:

  2. You response to this paper of “Liar, liar pants are on fire” is hardly scientific now is it!

GC.

» It was the german paper I referenced on the other thread; you said you
» saw nothing in it, yet it clearly stated that Estrogen inhibits anagen.

Are you talking about the Ohnemus et al study? The one titled “The Hair Folicle as an Estrogen Target and Source”?? How many times do I have to explain to you that to the very best of my knowledge, experiments showing that estrogen inhibits anagen ALL INVOLVED ANIMALS (body hair)?? That’s the main point I’ve been trying to make all week long, and yet you STILL don’t understand it?? Estrogen is GOOD for scalp hair, BAD for body hair.

» Similarly on HLT (the thread you pointed me at) there was another
» published paper posted that claimed Estrogen was bad for MPB; your
» argument was simply that “That guy has always had a negative position re
» Estrogen”. Two points on this;

What thread on HLT are you talking about? I don’t recall saying anything about such a thread.

» 1. You obviously discounted this paper in your 100% claim. What you really
» meant was “100% of papers that Bryan agrees with supports Bryan’s position
» that Estrogen is a good thing!” :smiley:

I haven’t discounted ANY study, to the best of my knowledge. If I forgot one or I’m unaware of one, please cite it for me. BE SPECIFIC, don’t just say something vague about “a study on HLT”.

» Are you talking about the Ohnemus et al study? The one titled “The
» Hair Folicle as an Estrogen Target and Source”?? How many times do I have
» to explain to you that to the very best of my knowledge, experiments
» showing that estrogen inhibits anagen ALL INVOLVED ANIMALS (body hair)??

Edit: Or non-balding human OCCIPITAL hair.

» That’s the main point I’ve been trying to make all week long, and yet you
» STILL don’t understand it?? Estrogen is GOOD for scalp hair, BAD for body
» hair.

» Their wording doesn’t “argue against” the evidence that they saw with
» their own eyes, it’s just an acknowledgement of the surprise they felt
» from confronting such a completely new paradigm. Something completely
» different for THEM, anyway: Dr. Proctor has been discussing that issue
» for years on alt.baldspot (that androgens AND estrogens show paradoxically
» opposite site-specific effects on hair follicles)! :stuck_out_tongue:

Dr P sez: More on this-- Research papers do report that estrogens extend the amonut of time scalp hair spends in the growht phase. High estrogen levels and low androgen levels are the main reason women have thicker head hair and thinner body hair than males.

Once, I had a patient who against my advice got some estrogen (DES, IIRC) from his nurse wife and used it topically.

He was a little vague about the dose, but he must have overdone it-- even with alleged topical use only. His body hair really thinned out and his sex life went way down. He also got a little breast growth. This reversed on stopping, as did the other symptoms. It was difficult to document any effect on his head hair, though this may be another case of “every little bit helps”.

Peter H. Proctor, PhD, MD

» » Their wording doesn’t “argue against” the evidence that they saw with
» » their own eyes, it’s just an acknowledgement of the surprise they felt
» » from confronting such a completely new paradigm. Something completely
» » different for THEM, anyway: Dr. Proctor has been discussing that issue
» » for years on alt.baldspot (that androgens AND estrogens show
» paradoxically
» » opposite site-specific effects on hair follicles)! :stuck_out_tongue:
»
» Dr P sez: More on this-- Research papers do report that estrogens extend
» the amonut of time scalp hair spends in the growht phase. High estrogen
» levels and low androgen levels are the main reason women have thicker head
» hair and thinner body hair than males.
»
» Once, I had a patient who against my advice got some estrogen (DES, IIRC)
» from his nurse wife and used it topically.
»
» He was a little vague about the dose, but he must have overdone it-- even
» with alleged topical use only. His body hair really thinned out and his
» sex life went way down. He also got a little breast growth. This
» reversed on stopping, as did the other symptoms. It was difficult to
» document any effect on his head hair, though this may be another case of
» “every little bit helps”.
»
» Peter H. Proctor, PhD, MD
» www.gohair.com

So basically he started showing feminization traits. Thats reason enough to stay away from Estrogen.

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hey ppl take a look at this . A study about gynecomastia and breast pain while taking bicalutamide (casodex) with tamoxifen . I was searching to find what happens in someones hormone profile when taking an antiadrogen and an anti estrogen together cos im fighting gynecomastia my self. Now im Not using Bicalutamide but spironolactone(200mg) and finasteride(5mg) but what i found interesting is even though tamo caused a spike in androgens , both free testosterone , DHT and total , it also upregulated circulating estradiol .In day 43 free testosterone was 40% higher than baseline but so was estradiol with a 37% rise . This looks great cos you can fight your gyno and at the same time keep the benefits of estrogen on your hair . Summer of 2007 i had the same breast pain and swelling and without researching i used tamoxifen together with the spiro and fin i was taking to fight hairloss . I took it for about 60 days or so. The thing i noticed back then was that somehow i started having regrowth in my temple points and my hair grew faster. I really dunno whats the truth behind that . Regrowth stopped within a month after stopping tamo. well …at least the gyno resolved. Now im using it again for my gyno and carefully monitoring what happens in my hair. Im not looking to take sides here just sharing my experience .

http://www.nature.com/pcan/journal/v8/n1/fig_tab/4500782t2.html#figure-title

This is quite an interesting finding.
Would like to know what happens during this second time treatment with antiestrogen + anti androgen.

Any similar reports you found on the web?

» hey ppl take a look at this . A study about gynecomastia and breast pain
» while taking bicalutamide (casodex) with tamoxifen . I was searching to
» find what happens in someones hormone profile when taking an antiadrogen
» and an anti estrogen together cos im fighting gynecomastia my self. Now im
» Not using Bicalutamide but spironolactone(200mg) and finasteride(5mg) but
» what i found interesting is even though tamo caused a spike in androgens ,
» both free testosterone , DHT and total , it also upregulated circulating
» estradiol .In day 43 free testosterone was 40% higher than baseline but so
» was estradiol with a 37% rise . This looks great cos you can fight your
» gyno and at the same time keep the benefits of estrogen on your hair .
» Summer of 2007 i had the same breast pain and swelling and without
» researching i used tamoxifen together with the spiro and fin i was taking
» to fight hairloss . I took it for about 60 days or so. The thing i noticed
» back then was that somehow i started having regrowth in my temple points
» and my hair grew faster. I really dunno whats the truth behind that .
» Regrowth stopped within a month after stopping tamo. well …at least the
» gyno resolved. Now im using it again for my gyno and carefully monitoring
» what happens in my hair. Im not looking to take sides here just sharing my
» experience .
»
»
» http://www.nature.com/pcan/journal/v8/n1/fig_tab/4500782t2.html#figure-title

actually yes i found another one

Tamoxifen for flutamide/finasteride-induced gynecomastia.

the interesting part is that while on the drug combi Psa levels in 4 out of 6 patients Kept going down , so it seems flutamide and finasteride where quite capable of managing that upregulated testosterone from tamoxifen. oh and in 3 out of 6 estradiol increased from 1.3 to 2.2 times the baseline.
I like the idea of having the antiandrogens protecting my hair while tamoxifen protects my chest without touching my hair . Now lets see if it even actually helps.

» This is quite an interesting finding.
» Would like to know what happens during this second time treatment with
» antiestrogen + anti androgen.
»
» Any similar reports you found on the web?
»
»
» » hey ppl take a look at this . A study about gynecomastia and breast
» pain
» » while taking bicalutamide (casodex) with tamoxifen . I was searching to
» » find what happens in someones hormone profile when taking an
» antiadrogen
» » and an anti estrogen together cos im fighting gynecomastia my self. Now
» im
» » Not using Bicalutamide but spironolactone(200mg) and finasteride(5mg)
» but
» » what i found interesting is even though tamo caused a spike in
» androgens ,
» » both free testosterone , DHT and total , it also upregulated
» circulating
» » estradiol .In day 43 free testosterone was 40% higher than baseline but
» so
» » was estradiol with a 37% rise . This looks great cos you can fight your
» » gyno and at the same time keep the benefits of estrogen on your hair .
» » Summer of 2007 i had the same breast pain and swelling and without
» » researching i used tamoxifen together with the spiro and fin i was
» taking
» » to fight hairloss . I took it for about 60 days or so. The thing i
» noticed
» » back then was that somehow i started having regrowth in my temple
» points
» » and my hair grew faster. I really dunno whats the truth behind that .
» » Regrowth stopped within a month after stopping tamo. well …at least
» the
» » gyno resolved. Now im using it again for my gyno and carefully
» monitoring
» » what happens in my hair. Im not looking to take sides here just sharing
» my
» » experience .
» »
» »
» »
» http://www.nature.com/pcan/journal/v8/n1/fig_tab/4500782t2.html#figure-title