Secrecy , hypocricy , and videotape

Hair Transplant
81

» » how do you docs have time to spend so much time on the board arguing

Hanginthere you of all people shouldn’t of found the need to ask this question

»
» Sometime come on here to argue. Some come on only as a marketing tool.
» Some do a little of both. But some come on here to learn and educate.
» That’s my primary motivation-besides, I love to debate.
»
» It doesn’t take that much time to write up a viewpoint and post it. It is
» every doctors obligation to educate the public and defend his positions. It
» keeps us sharp and makes us accountable. It pushes us to excel.
»
» There are always natural 5 minute breaks during the work day where there
» are a few minutes to read and write a post.

82

» » » how do you docs have time to spend so much time on the board
» arguing
»
» Hanginthere you of all people shouldn’t of found the need to
» ask this question
»
» »
» » Sometime come on here to argue. Some come on only as a marketing tool.
» » Some do a little of both. But some come on here to learn and educate.
» » That’s my primary motivation-besides, I love to debate.
» »
» » It doesn’t take that much time to write up a viewpoint and post it. It
» is
» » every doctors obligation to educate the public and defend his positions.
» It
» » keeps us sharp and makes us accountable. It pushes us to excel.
» »
» » There are always natural 5 minute breaks during the work day where
» there
» » are a few minutes to read and write a post.

i have time to argue
i am assuming the docs dont…but i guess im wrong :smiley:

83

Since 2002, when I first came to HAIRSITE, I have made about 150 posts

About 1 every few months.

And I only post when neccesary to challenge the BS you see peddled.

I post to defend myself against slanderous remarks and attacks which competing doctors are promoting here and on other sites, in their pathetic attempts to prove they are better than the “original”.

Videos are put up occassionally, But I simply do not have the time to put up every case I do. My day is spent concentrating on ONE patient, what is left is my time.

I just do not have the time.

But I do have the time to say this.

The graft numbers quoted both in FUE and strip is quite often a gross deception .
And the before and after shots seen all over the web is an excellent example of mass hypnosis.

Often, there are serious questions and doubts about the legitimacy of this PR hype, BUT MOST, are lulled into an accepting believing stupor…reminds me of something else…

The numbers quoted is often one doctor leap frogging a competitor by promising a BIGGER number per session

But once you are a patient in the chair, signing your rights away in an IMPENATRABLE DISCLAIMER, “fug ed aboudit”

And here is where I have always stood

Every patient has the right to watch each and every follicle placed in their balding area, counting with a clicker if they wish, and verifying every follicle is intact
Every patient, if they wish , can watch represenative graft removal proving negligable transection rate.

It is all laid out in the “declaration of patient rights”, the principles of which were being drawn 10 years before people like Feller even knew FUE existed

And everything I have said here has been said many times before in the approx. 150 posts over the last 6 years on hairsite

But there will always be some punk who will want to have a go…just for a second I felt like this was a scene from a western.

Dr Ray Woods

» » » keeps us sharp and makes us accountable. It pushes us to excel.
» » »
» » » There are always natural 5 minute breaks during the work day where
» » there
» » » are a few minutes to read and write a post.
»
» i have time to argue
» i am assuming the docs dont…but i guess im wrong :smiley:

84

Well you started this thread Dr Woods slaying others and have yet not provided proof of these slanderous/insulting/misinformed/whatever you want to call them comments.
Please provide links to these topics and these photo shopped pictures you mentioned earlier.
I for one only want the truth but claims need to be backed up with fact/proof.
Thanks bigmac.

85

» But there will always be some punk who will want to have a go…
»
» Dr Ray Woods

:rotfl: Hahaha that’s awesome, didnt even see it coming LOL. That sounds like the Ray I remember…haha. :lol2:

86

BigMac. You are not a newbie to hairtransplant research. From these staements I think he is talking in general of the ht business over the years and still happens these days within certain clinics. No names were mentioned here. Anyway that is why I would never get a ht if I was going in again today for more work without meeting patients. Pictures are just the first step to seek out a specific doctor. Anyway if you llok at the history and go back some years 2000 and on. The information is out there. Total slander from the ht community about Fue and what Dr. Woods was doing. And there is a good list of Docs at my consults 2001-2002 that are now offering Fue now. What does that tell you?

87

» BigMac. You are not a newbie to hairtransplant research. From these
» staements I think he is talking in general of the ht business over the
» years and still happens these days within certain clinics. No names were
» mentioned here. Anyway that is why I would never get a ht if I was going in
» again today for more work without meeting patients. Pictures are just the
» first step to seek out a specific doctor. Anyway if you llok at the history
» and go back some years 2000 and on. The information is out there. Total
» slander from the ht community about Fue and what Dr. Woods was doing. And
» there is a good list of Docs at my consults 2001-2002 that are now offering
» Fue now. What does that tell you?

amazed that professional can’t control themselves and resort to this to market themselves; long gone are the days doctors were held in respect and who do they have to blame.

88

»
» amazed that professional can’t control themselves and resort to this to
» market themselves; long gone are the days doctors were held in respect and
» who do they have to blame.

That’s exactly what my thoughts are regarding this thread.

Medicine is no longer a respectable profession. Just greedy men and women doing whatever they can to increase their market share and fatten their wallets.

This applies even more so outside the ht business. People are conned daily into unnecessary surgeries and medications they don’t need. Meanwhile the doctors are fat and happy.

I’m sure there might be a few left they really want to help people, but it’s like looking for a needle in a haystack. Let the buyer beware.

89

» amazed that professional can’t control themselves and resort to this to
» market themselves; long gone are the days doctors were held in respect and
» who do they have to blame.

No doctor would be here if there was no interest, demand or postings from people…like you.

You have just contributed a small amount, but it all adds up to what is the new cyberspace medical market place, like it or not.

You clicked onto HAIRSITE, you read, you posted, and you get a response.

Hairtransplantation is the wildwest , a totally unregulated free for all.

And if a doctor sees wrong doing, he should get involved.

But that becomes a never ending story as a bloody debate rages.

Who is right?, who is wrong? stick around.
Otherwise, canadadry, the bar is thata way ^

By the way, ophthalmologists offering laser eye surgery are becoming quite “market” driven and aggressive promoters.

Give them a piece of your mind as well

Dr Ray Woods

90

» »
» » amazed that professional can’t control themselves and resort to this to
» » market themselves; long gone are the days doctors were held in respect
» and
» » who do they have to blame.
»
» That’s exactly what my thoughts are regarding this thread.
»
» Medicine is no longer a respectable profession. Just greedy men and women
» doing whatever they can to increase their market share and fatten their
» wallets.
»
» This applies even more so outside the ht business. People are conned daily
» into unnecessary surgeries and medications they don’t need. Meanwhile the
» doctors are fat and happy.
»
» I’m sure there might be a few left they really want to help people, but
» it’s like looking for a needle in a haystack. Let the buyer beware.

True true true. The pendulum has swung from highly esteemed doctors to salesmen with a scalpel. To complicate our current situation, medical information used to be big, thick volumes of text subject to a series of editions and input from several senior sources. Now, anyone can publish on the internet whenever the mood strikes them. Is it true, is it not? Who knows?

On the upside, patients used to have no option but to blindly put their entire faith and trust in their doc. Now, at least research is possible for the common man. I strongly suggest that people put a lot of research into any medical procedure or diagnosis and discuss their findings zith their docs. But, we need to hone our skills when verifying information. Consider the source, their motivation, the evidence they use to support their arguement, etc.

91

"Every patient has the right to watch each and every follicle placed in their balding area, counting with a clicker if they wish, and verifying every follicle is intact

Every patient, if they wish , can watch represenative graft removal proving negligable transection rate."

I like this. We have the same philosophy at WHTC. The patient should be involved with their own surgery as much or as little as they would like. Dr. Mwamba believes that it is best to educateand show the patient without bias and allow them to choose what they want. That is why he spent the last 9 years learning and perfecting several HT techniques. To provide options to the patient.

It takes more time to train this way and it takes more doctor-to-patient time to educate the patient. But, I think it is worth it, and I hope to see more of this caliber of philosophy in this industry.

92

» Aqueous,
» Cool down my friend. Let’s do as you said and take the emotional out of
» it. Let’s get back on track.
»
» I do not know your doctor, but by the use of the term FIT, I assume the
» custom tools you are referring to is Dr. Cole’s patented punch holder. IF
» that is what you are referring to, then it should be made clear to you and
» the viewers that this device was only designed and used to limit the depth
» of the punch. It does nothing as far as minimizing:
» 1. Torsion
» 2. Traction
» 3. Compression
»
» If you are using customized punches, as I do, I’ve never seen any mention
» of it by you. What do you use? I would be happy to send your doc a few
» Feller Punches if he would send me a few of his. You are welcome to
» critique it and describe it online. Even videotape it. As for your
» technology, I could critique it publicly or give you private feedback. If
» it is proprietary, I’d be happy to sign a non-disclosure.
»
» Innovative FUE doctors need to start working together, not against each
» other. There is plenty of business out there for everyone, and the more
» transparent we all are, the faster and stronger the FUE industry will
» grow.
»
» It is very good that your clinic offers BOTH strip and FUE. By virtue of
» that fact alone I would think that you are much more open in describing the
» pros and cons of each procedure.
»
» It is the “FUE only” clinics that I suspect are less than forthright in
» their disclosure of the differences between Strip and FUE. I applaud you
» and your doctor for doing BOTH as I know it is not easy to perform both
» regularly.
»
» I have to take issue with your claim of 90% success rate though. Perhaps a
» little hyperbole? While there are definitely some patients that approach
» and exceed that number, it isn’t many. Your claim that it is so on all
» patients doesn’t jibe with your claim that you do “test cases”. Why do test
» cases if you are consistently getting 90% or higher FUE success rates? It
» would seem superfluous.
»
» I will only allow an FUE surgery to dip down to a 70% success ration
» before I call off the surgery. It is rare indeed that you can get a 90%
» success ration, ESPECIALLY in a big case. You must be using different tools
» indeed!
»
»
» Perhaps I’m not being clear though. When I talk about a “success rate” I
» mean the ratio of FUE attempts to successful extractions. If it takes 1000
» attempts to successfully extract 600 grafts, then FUE is clearly not the
» best procedure for that patient…even if every one of those 600 grafts
» ultimately grows.
»
» I just looked on your site and saw an FIT patient in your photo gallery.
» Personally, I think the results are marvelous. But I still think the result
» pales in comparison to strip graft procedures of the same number that have
» been posted. I thinking anyone making such a comparison would agree.
»
» Your doctor should be very proud of that result as long as the patient
» knew well before hand that an FUE result may not be as good as an equal
» number of strip grafts. I would personally be very happy to showcase an FUE
» result like that on my website so don’t take it as a negative criticism.
» What makes that result even more outstanding is the significant cosmetic
» difference the patient enjoys even though he has fine hair. That’s a real
» challenge for an FUE doc, and your doc has clearly risen to the occasion.
»
» Again, the fact that your doctor does both strip and FUE proficiently you
» are excluded from much of the criticism I have been offering the “FUE only”
» clinics on this thread.
»
» I believe, however, that you and your doctor will agree that there is room
» for improvement in this field, even for the most proficient doctors. Let’s
» remain in touch and share information and tips. Who knows, maybe your
» doctor and I can come up with the next generation of instruments and
» protocols.
»
» Contact me if your doc would like to trade instruments and tips and let’s
» see if we can take this field to the next level.

Hey Dr. Feller,

I didnt mean to leave you without a response, and there is a lot to respond to. Id like to continue communication as you suggest, but maybe starting a new thread would be good because this one has so many topics smooshed together. I prefer to deal with one thing at a time.

I dont know about the punch holder you describe, but we have a whole set of FIT instruments and techniques to choose from that not only greatly decreases the traumas you mentioned, but they can be changed up and modified from patient to patient, from one area to another, etc.

I think it is good that docs work together for the advancement of the industry, but do not expect anyone to detail step-by-step instructions with video. I dont think it is the most responsible thing to do on the internet. But, there are demonstrations and talks of this nature at ISHRS and other conventions for hair transplant. Patients can go too.

I stand behind our growth rates. Test cases are just one example of how we can support this claim with controlled scientific protocol and documentation. I will start a new thread about test cases, and I hope you can read it and maybe participate if you can.

It would also be good to start a thread about what you call success rate. We have similar terms, but also different.

Another great discussion can center around FIT vs Strip results. Each case is different, so it is not comparing apples to apples, but I know understand your point. It really comes down to growth rate, density, and approach to the case.

If you want to trade instruments, Dr. Mwamba said that he would try your punch and give you feed back. He is honest and unbiased. If the Feller punch offers and advantage to any patient, he will buy it and use it. If not, he will let you know exactally the features and why without being abrasive.

However, if you want to use FIT instruments, you have to get them from Dr. Cole. It is not our technology to give away. Dr. Cole had doctors come from the US, Europe, and Asia to observe the FIT technique. So, it would not be unreasonable for you to visit as well.

I think the field of hair transplant is at a higher level of technology, capability, and ethics, but it is just not widespread. The better choices should be displayed so that they can replace the old habits. Hopefully discussion can give it a jumpstart.

93

Oh, come on now. If a patient were to watch and verify placement of EVERY graft, the procedure would take about 48 hours. There should be a certain amount of trust given by the patient to the surgeon and the trust should be earned. After all, the surgeon is 100% accountable, not the patient. The patient may be able to see the placement of every graft, but he/she certainly cannot see any damage/transection that may have occurred.

94

»
» The irony here is that I happen to agree with Dr. Woods that FUE surgery
» really should not exceed about 500 grafts per sitting. Dr. Campbell
» actually told me that herself at a meeting in NYC when I was starting my
» own “self imposed residency” in FUE years ago. I subsequently found out on
» my own that 500 was indeed the max I could do before getting tired, so it
» confirmed Dr. Woods public position and Dr. Campbell’s friendly advice she
» gave in private. That’s why I’m so confident and vocal about that being
» about the max FUE that should be done in a sitting.
»
»
thats a very interesting statement dr.feller .
if you’re so confident about that number being the maximum for one sitting , why then did you say to me in the telephone consultation that i had with you in january 2008 - regarding FUE - that you may be able to get upto 1500 grafts in a single session "if it went well " ?

95

Is someone going to watch every single graft put in? Probably not and you are right the patient should have great trust in the surgeon through there research. But it is great to have the option to watch it. Also I asked on quite a few occassions to see the grafts immidiately after extraction and how healthy they looked. Nice option if you want it. Whatever it takes to give the patient there own piece of mind. There are some clinics that have 4 and 5 people extracting grafts. If patients are fine with this so be it. “The patient may be able to see the placement of every graft, but he/she certainly cannot see any damage/transection that may have occurred.” Well one thing I did see is the lack of growth from my 800 grafts previously under high powered magnification. And the doctor did not have to point this out to me with my head shaved pre-op it was clear as day up on the monitor.

96

» Oh, come on now. If a patient were to watch and verify placement of EVERY
» graft, the procedure would take about 48 hours. There should be a certain
» amount of trust given by the patient to the surgeon and the trust should be
» earned. After all, the surgeon is 100% accountable, not the patient. The
» patient may be able to see the placement of every graft, but he/she
» certainly cannot see any damage/transection that may have occurred.

Good points. Although the patient’s opinions are welcomed, it is a good point that the doctor is the one accountable and has the right to refuse treatment that is not reasonable or not in the patient’s best interest.

The patient should be involved and nothing should be kept secret, but every graft IS excessive.

You could hook up a video camera to your microscope or loupes, however. If there were damage, the patient would be able to tell in that case.

Although the patient’s opinions are welcomed, it is a good point that the doctor is the one accountable and has the right to refuse treatment that is not reasonable or not in the patient’s best interest.

97

“Although the patient’s opinions are welcomed, it is a good point that the doctor is the one accountable and has the right to refuse treatment that is not reasonable or not in the patient’s best interest.”

Well, that was really not my point. From a PATIENT’s perspective, the onus is directly on the surgeon to extract, handle and place the grafts in a safe manner to ensure regrowth. I understand your response, given the fact that you work for a surgeon.

98

» » Aqueous,
» » Cool down my friend. Let’s do as you said and take the emotional out of
» » it. Let’s get back on track.
» »
» » I do not know your doctor, but by the use of the term FIT, I assume the
» » custom tools you are referring to is Dr. Cole’s patented punch holder.
» IF
» » that is what you are referring to, then it should be made clear to you
» and
» » the viewers that this device was only designed and used to limit the
» depth
» » of the punch. It does nothing as far as minimizing:
» » 1. Torsion
» » 2. Traction
» » 3. Compression
» »
» » If you are using customized punches, as I do, I’ve never seen any
» mention
» » of it by you. What do you use? I would be happy to send your doc a few
» » Feller Punches if he would send me a few of his. You are welcome to
» » critique it and describe it online. Even videotape it. As for your
» » technology, I could critique it publicly or give you private feedback.
» If
» » it is proprietary, I’d be happy to sign a non-disclosure.
» »
» » Innovative FUE doctors need to start working together, not against each
» » other. There is plenty of business out there for everyone, and the more
» » transparent we all are, the faster and stronger the FUE industry will
» » grow.
» »
» » It is very good that your clinic offers BOTH strip and FUE. By virtue
» of
» » that fact alone I would think that you are much more open in describing
» the
» » pros and cons of each procedure.
» »
» » It is the “FUE only” clinics that I suspect are less than forthright in
» » their disclosure of the differences between Strip and FUE. I applaud
» you
» » and your doctor for doing BOTH as I know it is not easy to perform both
» » regularly.
» »
» » I have to take issue with your claim of 90% success rate though. Perhaps
» a
» » little hyperbole? While there are definitely some patients that
» approach
» » and exceed that number, it isn’t many. Your claim that it is so on all
» » patients doesn’t jibe with your claim that you do “test cases”. Why do
» test
» » cases if you are consistently getting 90% or higher FUE success rates?
» It
» » would seem superfluous.
» »
» » I will only allow an FUE surgery to dip down to a 70% success ration
» » before I call off the surgery. It is rare indeed that you can get a 90%
» » success ration, ESPECIALLY in a big case. You must be using different
» tools
» » indeed!
» »
» »
» » Perhaps I’m not being clear though. When I talk about a “success rate”
» I
» » mean the ratio of FUE attempts to successful extractions. If it takes
» 1000
» » attempts to successfully extract 600 grafts, then FUE is clearly not
» the
» » best procedure for that patient…even if every one of those 600 grafts
» » ultimately grows.
» »
» » I just looked on your site and saw an FIT patient in your photo
» gallery.
» » Personally, I think the results are marvelous. But I still think the
» result
» » pales in comparison to strip graft procedures of the same number that
» have
» » been posted. I thinking anyone making such a comparison would agree.
» »
» » Your doctor should be very proud of that result as long as the patient
» » knew well before hand that an FUE result may not be as good as an equal
» » number of strip grafts. I would personally be very happy to showcase an
» FUE
» » result like that on my website so don’t take it as a negative
» criticism.
» » What makes that result even more outstanding is the significant
» cosmetic
» » difference the patient enjoys even though he has fine hair. That’s a
» real
» » challenge for an FUE doc, and your doc has clearly risen to the
» occasion.
» »
» » Again, the fact that your doctor does both strip and FUE proficiently
» you
» » are excluded from much of the criticism I have been offering the “FUE
» only”
» » clinics on this thread.
» »
» » I believe, however, that you and your doctor will agree that there is
» room
» » for improvement in this field, even for the most proficient doctors.
» Let’s
» » remain in touch and share information and tips. Who knows, maybe your
» » doctor and I can come up with the next generation of instruments and
» » protocols.
» »
» » Contact me if your doc would like to trade instruments and tips and
» let’s
» » see if we can take this field to the next level.
»
» Hey Dr. Feller,
»
» I didnt mean to leave you without a response, and there is a lot to
» respond to. Id like to continue communication as you suggest, but maybe
» starting a new thread would be good because this one has so many topics
» smooshed together. I prefer to deal with one thing at a time.
»
» I dont know about the punch holder you describe, but we have a whole set
» of FIT instruments and techniques to choose from that not only greatly
» decreases the traumas you mentioned, but they can be changed up and
» modified from patient to patient, from one area to another, etc.
»
» I think it is good that docs work together for the advancement of the
» industry, but do not expect anyone to detail step-by-step instructions with
» video. I dont think it is the most responsible thing to do on the
» internet. But, there are demonstrations and talks of this nature at ISHRS
» and other conventions for hair transplant. Patients can go too.
»
» I stand behind our growth rates. Test cases are just one example of how
» we can support this claim with controlled scientific protocol and
» documentation. I will start a new thread about test cases, and I hope you
» can read it and maybe participate if you can.
»
» It would also be good to start a thread about what you call success rate.
» We have similar terms, but also different.
»
» Another great discussion can center around FIT vs Strip results. Each
» case is different, so it is not comparing apples to apples, but I know
» understand your point. It really comes down to growth rate, density, and
» approach to the case.
»
» If you want to trade instruments, Dr. Mwamba said that he would try your
» punch and give you feed back. He is honest and unbiased. If the Feller
» punch offers and advantage to any patient, he will buy it and use it. If
» not, he will let you know exactally the features and why without being
» abrasive.
»
» However, if you want to use FIT instruments, you have to get them from Dr.
» Cole. It is not our technology to give away. Dr. Cole had doctors come
» from the US, Europe, and Asia to observe the FIT technique. So, it would
» not be unreasonable for you to visit as well.
»
» I think the field of hair transplant is at a higher level of technology,
» capability, and ethics, but it is just not widespread. The better choices
» should be displayed so that they can replace the old habits. Hopefully
» discussion can give it a jumpstart.

Torsion, compression, etc. is really a fabricated excuse to suggest that Strip provides better coverage. In the end, the strip just involves more individual hairs per procedure for less money.

There have been countless tests to suggest excellent yields from both strip and FUE.

Just how many grafts do you think are destroyed by removal of the strip?

Hmmm. Compromise donor vs. yeild on recipient.

99

»
» Just how many grafts do you think are destroyed by removal of the strip?
»
»
» Hmmm. Compromise donor vs. yeild on recipient.

Interesting.
I heared a doc one say about FUE and FUT.
If you want to plant a tree in your garden you dig a hole, you dont bomb your garden !
:slight_smile:

100

http://picasaweb.google.com/BobHaber2/HaberSpreader/photo?authkey=IzMfSCmz8uc#5202585668893214434

Have a look at thids and you will see how strip is removed without damaging the follicles.