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Secrecy , hypocricy , and videotape


#1

On the internet, Dr Feller stated that I kept a veil of secrecy over my technique.

In 1993, I approached Dr BOB LIMMER. He was the first to introduce the concept of FOLLICULAR UNITS being generated via strip, utilizing dissecting microscopes.

His information photos etc were not as impressive as other doctors, but his information was real and honest, whereas much of the others was pure marketing BS.

That is why I approached Dr LIMMER, IN 1993.

I disclosed everything I had. I hoped we could work together but it wasn’t to be.

I made other genuine and documented atempts in the coming years to other doctors and institutions but found it would be easier trying to sell a WATER ENGINE to an OIL COMPANY.

More than a decade ago, I was on the verge of derailing an institutionalised cashcow for thousands of doctors in this business, many of whom were terrified that their lack of skill and ability would be exposed.

Unlike strip, FUE required prerequisite and innate microsurgical “instinct”. It requires pre existing capability , which then requires years of determined effort to perfect

I even had death threats and was warned to back off. Strip was king, made lots of money for the boys club, and my interference was unwelcome.

And all of this was happening in the mid 1990s, probably while Dr Feller was trying to pass his DO EXAM . In fact, Dr Bernstein MD joined Dr Rassman MD in 1996 doing strip in NHI.

Thats how long ago it was.

I did what I had to do and when I realised the US training college would not eventuate, I gave as much information as any competent doctor would require in order to start their own venture.

It was neccessary to do it this way because, as most realise, the HT business is NOT mainstream .
It is the wild west of medicine. It is cut throat and ruthless, each doctor trying to gain a marketing advantage over a competitor.
Just read the posts of Feller.

And manipulating before and after photos is ridiculously easy.

Employing a cheer squad chanting over and over again that questionable and crap photos look great is now a standard practice. Mass hypnosis works

On a historical note, In 1989 Dr Limmer only accepted strip. But he also only accepted an honest and credible approach utilizing microscopes and follicular units, in the face of what was a dark and shamefull time in the history of HT

Even though it was strip, his committment to a microsurgical approach must be regarded as a landmark.

Dr Ray Woods


#2

Thanks for posting Dr Woods. I’ve followed your work for a number of years and am always very impressed by what I see.

However, Dr Feller has possibly ruled me out of having FUE with you through his recent post (and I’m sure a proportion of all the readers would now stay away from FUE)

He has basically said that:

1)FUE has an inferior yield to strip.

2)Not all people are candidates for FUE due to physiology (and he says that we should run from a clinic who says otherwise)

3)He has claimed to videotape his procedure and says no-one has offered to do the same so that the results/claims of surgeons can be compared.

4)My main question is why would Dr Feller lie? (He also produces top quality results and does FUE and strip)

So Dr Woods - I would be grateful if you could enlighten me on the four questions. I know for a fact I would choose you or Dr Cole if I had FUE.

So to hear your views may help to re-assure me that FUE is a good and universal procedure.

PS - It would also be good if other FUE surgeons/reps could post in this thread. Dr Feller has posted his negative case for FUE so it would be good to hear the other side of the argument.

have a good day - Tel


#3

Dear tel baker,
I would side Dr. Woods on all the four questions you have posted.

Not all fue is the same.
There will be doctors who -

  1. Do not have the correct techniques,
  2. Do not have the correct instrumentation,
  3. Do not have the requisite training,
  4. Do not have the requisite experience,
  5. Do not have the requisite commitment,
    to perform fue.

They will blame fue - not their own inadequacies - for the lack of results in their hands. Yesterday, I met a patient who had, ?fue technique performed on him. I was horrified at what was inflicted in name of fue.

Do not lay too much importance on utterances of doctors like Feller etc.
If in any doubt, go for a smaller test session or meet former patients.

And, urge any doctors that feel fue is not for everyone to visit the result compilation at
http://www.hairsite.com/hair-transplantation.htm

Regards,
Dr. A


#4

» 4)My main question is why would Dr Feller lie? (He also produces top
» quality results and does FUE and strip)

why would Dr. Feller lie? Good question, why would any doctor lie?


#5

» » 4)My main question is why would Dr Feller lie? (He also produces top
» » quality results and does FUE and strip)
»
» why would Dr. Feller lie? Good question, why would any doctor lie?

easy, FUE is his competition, if he cannot perform it well then FUE docs take money out of his pocket because he cannot offer this service and prefers to stick to strip, thus he comes out and trashes FUE ie the competition, saying it is inferior

next question


#6

» » » 4)My main question is why would Dr Feller lie? (He also produces top
» » » quality results and does FUE and strip)
» »
» » why would Dr. Feller lie? Good question, why would any doctor lie?
»
» easy, FUE is his competition, if he cannot perform it well then FUE docs
» take money out of his pocket because he cannot offer this service and
» prefers to stick to strip, thus he comes out and trashes FUE ie the
» competition, saying it is inferior
»
» next question

Yea, thats why ALL doctors who only do strip will/can heap skepticism on others practicing FUE, and furthermore, its much more about doctor skill to achieve consistently good results. And Dr. Woods is perhaps one of the true pioneers and/or world leaders in this field. It is always good to hear from him, but unfortunately some pictures of his patients and/or their results is missing from his post, and all we got was a rant.


#7

I see far more fue doctors/clinics who try to discredit strip than strip doctors who try and discredit fue.
Both produce great results when done by a good doctor and both have a place in the HT industry.
Instead of slating each other let your posted results do the talking and patients who post their results speaks volumes.


#8

» I see far more fue doctors/clinics who try to discredit strip than strip
» doctors who try and discredit fue.
» Both produce great results when done by a good doctor and both have a
» place in the HT industry.
» Instead of slating each other let your posted results do the talking and
» patients who post their results speaks volumes.

What is discussed during actual consultations is a little different than what is said on public forum. Is it advantageous for a 29 year old NW 2-3 to have a strip or FUE? We could debate the better procedure all day long but the results in the donor area is what will matter many many years down the road. I stand by FUE because it is less invasive in the end. Major strip clinics will never approve of it because it is much more work for them. I belive that it is selfish and isn’t looking out for the best interest of most patients who are young. Each doctor should raid this thread and discuss after effects of each. HT has come along way but there are still clinics performing balloon procedure and plugs even today. This is one man’s opinion;-)


#9

» I see far more fue doctors/clinics who try to discredit strip than strip
» doctors who try and discredit fue.
» Both produce great results when done by a good doctor and both have a
» place in the HT industry.
» Instead of slating each other let your posted results do the talking and
» patients who post their results speaks volumes.

I agree, there are far more fue docs discrediting strip than strip docs discrediting fue. This site is like a graveyard for strip recently, I see CIT and other docs post daily talking about bad strip scars, I am not arguing about that, after seeing some of the pics I know I don’t want a strip scar, the one problem is that strip results by far are superior to fue, Feller may have a point when he said yield is poorer for fue.


#10

» » I see far more fue doctors/clinics who try to discredit strip than strip
» » doctors who try and discredit fue.
» » Both produce great results when done by a good doctor and both have a
» » place in the HT industry.
» » Instead of slating each other let your posted results do the talking
» and
» » patients who post their results speaks volumes.
»
» I agree, there are far more fue docs discrediting strip than strip docs
» discrediting fue. This site is like a graveyard for strip recently, I see
» CIT and other docs post daily talking about bad strip scars, I am not
» arguing about that, after seeing some of the pics I know I don’t want a
» strip scar, the one problem is that strip results by far are superior to
» fue, Feller may have a point when he said yield is poorer for fue.
strip today is similar to scalp reduction, fue is like plugs. It is surgery regardless but the appearance of the donor is most important.


#11

» Thanks for posting Dr Woods. I’ve followed your work for a number of years
» and am always very impressed by what I see.
»
» However, Dr Feller has possibly ruled me out of having FUE with you
» through his recent post (and I’m sure a proportion of all the readers would
» now stay away from FUE)

Really? You have followed Dr. Woods for a number of years and all it takes is one post from Dr Feller to send you running for cover?


#12

» Dear tel baker,
» I would side Dr. Woods on all the four questions you have posted.
»
»
» Not all fue is the same.
» There will be doctors who -
» 1. Do not have the correct techniques,
» 2. Do not have the correct instrumentation,
» 3. Do not have the requisite training,
» 3. Do not have the requisite experience,
» 4. Do not have the requisite commitment,
» to perform fue.
»
» They will blame fue - not their own inadequacies - for the lack of results
» in their hands. Yesterday, I met a patient who had, ?fue technique
» performed on him. I was horrified at what was inflicted in name of fue.
»
» Do not lay too much importance on utterances of doctors like Feller etc.
» If in any doubt, go for a smaller test session or meet former patients.
»
» And, urge any doctors that feel fue is not for everyone to visit the
» result compilation at
» http://www.hairsite.com/hair-transplantation.htm
»
» Regards,
» Dr. A

This is all very well but here are some contradictions that are common to all FUE practitioners.

1: We are told that density change is unnoticeable until 50% density is lost. How can this stack with the philosophy by all FUE docs that only 28%-30% of the donor can be removed.

2: We are told that in the best hands the donor angulation surrounding FUE is not changed but all docs admit that scar retraction can change angulation.

3: The residual donor follicles proximal to the extracted FUs are maybe 100 times as many compared with strip since every removed FU in FUE leaves local donor follicles. The risk to these even in the best hands must be pertinent devils halo or not and also regardless of direct transection.

These questions have never been adequately answered and the the idea that there are few 5000+ FUE results simple because the procedure is new is no longer a viable excuse.

I think we deserve some believable answers at this juncture from those who still maintain that FUE can fully replace strip. If it cannot then the correct context for FUE needs to be explained but the FUE only or proponent clinics.


#13

When you say all Fue doctors. I am curious if you can post the exact quotes Comming from these docs. Thanks.


#14

» » Dear tel baker,
» » I would side Dr. Woods on all the four questions you have posted.
» »
» »
» » Not all fue is the same.
» » There will be doctors who -
» » 1. Do not have the correct techniques,
» » 2. Do not have the correct instrumentation,
» » 3. Do not have the requisite training,
» » 3. Do not have the requisite experience,
» » 4. Do not have the requisite commitment,
» » to perform fue.
» »
» » They will blame fue - not their own inadequacies - for the lack of
» results
» » in their hands. Yesterday, I met a patient who had, ?fue technique
» » performed on him. I was horrified at what was inflicted in name of fue.
»
» »
» » Do not lay too much importance on utterances of doctors like Feller
» etc.
» » If in any doubt, go for a smaller test session or meet former patients.
» »
» » And, urge any doctors that feel fue is not for everyone to visit the
» » result compilation at
» » http://www.hairsite.com/hair-transplantation.htm
» »
» » Regards,
» » Dr. A
»
»
» This is all very well but here are some contradictions that are common to
» all FUE practitioners.
»
» 1: We are told that density change is unnoticeable until 50% density is
» lost. How can this stack with the philosophy by all FUE docs that only
» 28%-30% of the donor can be removed.
»
» 2: We are told that in the best hands the donor angulation surrounding FUE
» is not changed but all docs admit that scar retraction can change
» angulation.
»
» 3: The residual donor follicles proximal to the extracted FUs are maybe
» 100 times as many compared with strip since every removed FU in FUE leaves
» local donor follicles. The risk to these even in the best hands must be
» pertinent devils halo or not and also regardless of direct transection.
»
» These questions have never been adequately answered and the the idea that
» there are few 5000+ FUE results simple because the procedure is new is no
» longer a viable excuse.
»
» I think we deserve some believable answers at this juncture from those who
» still maintain that FUE can fully replace strip. If it cannot then the
» correct context for FUE needs to be explained but the FUE only or proponent
» clinics.

Why are we still debating what percentage can be removed from the donor using fue? This was posted by PeterMac and it says it all, it is impossible to remove 50% without thinning the donor beyond recognition.


#15

Dr. Woods,

Obviously you are compelled to follow my work. That is wise as you may learn something about high quality strip surgery, or FUE sessions that can end in less than 12 hours .

I would like you, Dr. Ray Woods, to clarify a few points:

You wrote:
"And manipulating before and after photos is ridiculously easy."
Were you implying that I manipulate before/after photos? If so would you state that clearly in writing so that your meaning is well understood?

You wrote:
"Employing a cheer squad…"
Were you implying that I employ people to deceive the public? If so, please submit that directly in writing as well.

I won’t bother holding you to the “mass hypnosis” charge.

You wrote:
“More than a decade ago, I was on the verge of derailing an institutionalised cashcow for thousands of doctors in this business, many of whom were terrified that their lack of skill and ability would be exposed.”

Would you please list the “many” doctors in the business you were referring to. I would also like to know how you came by this information. Did you do a telephone poll or did you stand outside a yearly meeting of the ISHRS and ask doctors as they exited “ are you afraid of me? Is my interference unwelcome?” Or did you perhaps make the whole thing up to inflate your own sense of self importance?

As you can see, despite your claims that the industry felt threatened by you, the HT field has grown exponentially in both Strip and FUE, all without your contribution.

An entire FUE branch of the industry has been created and has been growing steadily since 2001 without you. In fact, based on internet photos and write ups, you have been surpassed on several fronts.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt some years ago and attended a conference held by your sister (whom I do respect and admire) and your lawyer. When your lawyer outright LIED about you having patents on your technology your credibility went into the toilet. How dare you try and sell intellectual property for hundreds of thousands of dollars that you knew you couldn’t protect or claim exclusivity on. When I busted your lawyer and made him aware that I had performed a patent search and knew for a fact there were no patents or applications, he backpedaled and claimed “The patents will issue when we want them to”. If he could do that, he’d be a multi-billionaire.

Regardless of the ad homonym attacks you regularly resort to, the facts are the facts.

  1. You are not transparent.

  2. You unnecessarily veil what you actually do in secrecy. That’s fine. That’s legal. But you have no right to claim that your techniques are superior to EVERY other doctor as a group (strip or FUE) when you refuse to allow your own methods to be evaluated by your peers or the public.

  3. Your results are no more impressive than that of other FUE doctors.

  4. FUE results, graft for graft, do not compare to strip surgery. No FUE doc has proved otherwise.

  5. You publicly vilify every HT doctor as scoundrels, criminals, incompetents, and even potential murderers. But when you are held to account for your outlandish pubic claims you throw a hissy fit and have a temper tantrum right here on the internet.

  6. The results from FUE cases are consistently poorer in volume and density when compared to an equal number of strip grafts. Your ridiculous innuendo of photo manipulation not withstanding. Again, if this is a charge you are making toward me in particular I ask you to clarify it in writing.

  7. There are so few successful BHT results that it’s offering as a clinical procedure should only be prefaced by the fact that it is experimental and has so far demonstrated consistently poor results.

  8. The amount of trauma an FUE graft must endure far exceeds that of a strip graft and is the probable reason for consistently lower yields in any hands. Until you can prove, through disclosure, that your FUE grafts endure fewer traumatic forces, you have no right to claim superiority of your technique over that of others who have not only re-invented FUE, but improved upon it and disclosed same.

  9. You are still under the impression that your procedure is a “threat” to the HT world. Guess what, nobody cares what you do anymore. In case you haven’t noticed, the field of strip and FUE HT has exploded WITHOUT you. In my own particular case I would be taking a step backwards using your techniques because my 500 graft FUE procedures don’t take all day and half the night. Grafts should be placed back into the body as quickly as possible to ensure maximum yield. You of all people should know that.

  10. You have not accepted my open challenge to all FUE doctors who claim that their techniques are superior to mine which is to simply videotape their techniques in action and allow our peers and the public to compare. By you not accepting this challenge I can only assume that you believe my techniques, and those of a few other FUE doctors, are equal or superior to your own.

I’ll give you this in all fairness. While you refused to disclose your methods, you were the first to popularize FUE. In doing so you showed it could be done. In the field of innovation that’s 50% of the battle. I applaud you for this. Knowing something CAN be done makes learning how to do it that much easier. Your sister gave me the other part of the FUE riddle which was to start with many small cases. How right she was. I followed her words to the letter and developed those microsurgical skills you often discuss.

You were a champion in doing what you did. But for the life of me, after receiving the recognition you deserved, I can’t understand why you shunned and vilified the rest of the HT world and cloistered yourself away. Did you honestly think we were all going to put down our scalpels and go sulk? Didn’t you think that even a few of us were up to the challenge of inventing our own FUE tools and techniques?

Perhaps you’d be doing 3,000 FUE grafts in less than 10 hours by now had you been able to work better with others. It makes no sense and it is a shame.

As for YOU Dr. Arvind, you shamelessly lifted a before/after patient photo right off of Dr. Rassman’s site and presented it as your own when you debuted on the internet. That makes you a thief, and a stupid one at that. I saw this fraud for myself, and why any patient would trust you after just that one incident alone is beyond my comprehension.


#16
  1. FUE results, graft for graft, do not compare to strip surgery. No FUE doc has proved otherwise." I will answer this for the time being. First off. Your quote is wrong graft for graft strip yields better?, What you leave out is then who is doing the surgery?. (You have said this to me in the past )My doc was bad so therefore I had a bad result .I will agree. But this can be very confusing statements to the newbies. Don’t you agree? I have had as you know 3 strip surgery’s. First 200 grafts. then 300 grafts and then another 300 grafts. Guess what? POOR YIELD! Then I went with Fue(skilled doc) And I had great yield. In fact I would match it against any strip doc in the field my results. Difference is I did not have to go through another strip. To meet my goals.

#17

“3)He has claimed to videotape his procedure and says no-one has offered to do the same so that the results/claims of surgeons can be compared.”

Dr.Feller,

Can you post this video that telbaker talked about his post?


#18

“6. The results from FUE cases are consistently poorer in volume and density when compared to an equal number of strip grafts. Your ridiculous innuendo of photo manipulation not withstanding. Again, if this is a charge you are making toward me in particular I ask you to clarify it in writing.” Again I will say it is the doctor performing the surgery. To your first point. Second. I think in general he is talking about photos on the internet. But I will wait For Dr. Woods to clarify if he is speaking about you in particular before We all make a judgement on this statement.


#19

For your sake Dr Feller, it’s probably a good thing that Dr Woods doesnt demonstrate exactly what he is doing. You already show poor sportsmanship, as is, just dealing with even the idea of defeat. Id hate to see how you would react if you actually got your nose rubbed in it too…

Do you really think you are going to get any takers for all your rhetorical challenges? Why would they be interested in a pissing contest? Hair transplantation is an elective surgery, not cancer research. It’s a business and a competetive one. Does KFC shares it’s recipe with competitors? It’s pretty obvious, no one cares what YOU are doing, no one cares about your patents either. Results are what matter. Not everyone needs to feed their own ego like you…Just keep doing your high quality strip since that’s what you believe in. It’s a lot easier than FUE, you’re home at decent hour and you can sleep at night knowing your patients results are not compromised. Leave FUE for the doctors who are willing to give it the full time dedication it demands.

And you never did comment on Franklins(aka Jaguars) results which you asked for, and he was nice enough to take new pics for you. So what did you think? Graft for graft, as you say, are willing to go on record and say he would have had better results had he done strip? If so please show us something compareable(1100 grafts) that you have done via strip to demonstrate to me and others how much more “volume and density” it could have had in your hands. If you can do that I will eat my words and offer you a public apology…


#20

I have personally also received 2 threats to back of about information regarding FUE megasessions.
Now I read that others have received similar threats, I feel more and more confirmed that there is something like a ‘strip lobby’ which feels it needs to protect its ‘boys club’ members.

FUE is not FUE :
dr. Feller uses his own protocol and his own instruments.
Therefore his FUE comments should be seen as his experience, in his hands, and using his instruments. Furthermore I believe that drs like dr. Woods, dr. llter, dr. De REys, who perform FUE EVERY DAY have far more experience by now then drs who perform strip surgery in combination with FUE.

Next week there will be live FUE surgery by dr. Ilter at the annual ESHRS. All docs that would like to see how the Ilter protocol works can have a look. They will that all statements used to discredit certain aspects of FUE will fade to dust.