Question about DSC cells

–Don’t they still exist in the miniaturized follicles in the bald areas of one’s scalp? If so, what is the benefit of moving different ones from a non-bald area? Won’t the new or regenerated follicle ultimately suffer the same fate as the previous one?

Not saying that replicel won’t work, but if my concern holds true, this might explain why it was previously surmised that replicel would be more effective for women with diffuse loss. Perhaps men would require repeat procedures, or “booster” injections from time to time.

» --Don’t they still exist in the miniaturized follicles in the bald areas of
» one’s scalp? If so, what is the benefit of moving different ones from a
» non-bald area? Won’t the new or regenerated follicle ultimately suffer the
» same fate as the previous one?
»
» Not saying that replicel won’t work, but if my concern holds true, this
» might explain why it was previously surmised that replicel would be more
» effective for women with diffuse loss. Perhaps men would require repeat
» procedures, or “booster” injections from time to time.

the problem is that to create new follicles you need more than DSC DP DS cells, these alone would create a hair-like structure ( Ironman et. al 2012 - Journal of Baldatology Hairsite)
which will die off and not cycle.

So the reason why this is only effective ( Moawk 2012) in women early stage pattern baldness it’s because the thickness and length of a follicles is (might be) proportional to the number of DSC(if they are the progenitor cells) at the bottom of the follicle by using the Gho formula.

“However, if HairMultiplication still involves the stimulation miniaturized follicles, with HairMultiplication it is impossible to create a high density when someone has been bald for a long time. This is because the miniaturized follicles has to be found. In these cases, HM has to be combined with other techniques like HairStemcell Transplantation”

  • Gho Nov 2005.

The new follicles will not die because of DHT, they will die due to migration of these cells. These cells are DHT resistant and will not go through degeneration.

Replicel has been aware of this, especially Hoffman for a long time. There was an interview I read where he suggested this could increase thickness and length of follicles but he never mentioned create new hair follicles.

Now using the Gho formula: 5 years since baldness = you’re fuked. You can see why they recruited nw3s man and women.

They’ve been aware that their treatment will work in this cases (or at least they are pretty sure about that). These are the best cells for such treatment because as it has been shown in mice they DO NOT Cluster.

However their biggest mistake was to apply the injection in the temporal region, this is something I still wonder the reason behind it. Results in this region will not be impressive and they will not be able to sc4am investors.

A lot of people have realized this potential hence they are ones who have invested in replicel like me. I recently bought the stock when it was 1.75(I
ve been waiting the whole time). I will be the one who might benefit the most and this might pay off my Gho treatment :).

I can’t use replicel on my bald head if it works hence im cashing this right after phase 1.

Of course I base all the above on absolutely nothing. :smiley:

» » --Don’t they still exist in the miniaturized follicles in the bald areas
» of
» » one’s scalp? If so, what is the benefit of moving different ones from a
» » non-bald area? Won’t the new or regenerated follicle ultimately suffer
» the
» » same fate as the previous one?
» »
» » Not saying that replicel won’t work, but if my concern holds true, this
» » might explain why it was previously surmised that replicel would be more
» » effective for women with diffuse loss. Perhaps men would require repeat
» » procedures, or “booster” injections from time to time.
»
» the problem is that to create new follicles you need more than DSC DP DS
» cells, these alone would create a hair-like structure ( Ironman et. al 2012
» - Journal of Baldatology Hairsite)
» which will die off and not cycle.
»
» So the reason why this is only effective ( Moawk 2012) in women early stage
» pattern baldness it’s because the thickness and length of a follicles is
» (might be) proportional to the number of DSC(if they are the progenitor
» cells) at the bottom of the follicle by using the Gho formula.
»
»
»
»
» “However, if HairMultiplication still involves the stimulation miniaturized
» follicles, with HairMultiplication it is impossible to create a high
» density when someone has been bald for a long time.
This is because the
» miniaturized follicles has to be found. In these cases, HM has to be
» combined with other techniques like HairStemcell Transplantation”
»
» - Gho Nov 2005.
»
» The new follicles will not die because of DHT, they will die due to
» migration of these cells. These cells are DHT resistant and will not go
» through degeneration.
»
» Replicel has been aware of this, especially Hoffman for a long time. There
» was an interview I read where he suggested this could increase thickness
» and length of follicles but he never mentioned create new hair follicles.
»
» Now using the Gho formula: 5 years since baldness = you’re fuked. You can
» see why they recruited nw3s man and women.
»
» They’ve been aware that their treatment will work in this cases (or at
» least they are pretty sure about that). These are the best cells for such
» treatment because as it has been shown in mice they DO NOT Cluster.
»
» However their biggest mistake was to apply the injection in the temporal
» region, this is something I still wonder the reason behind it. Results in
» this region will not be impressive and they will not be able to sc4am
» investors.
»
»
» A lot of people have realized this potential hence they are ones who have
» invested in replicel like me. I recently bought the stock when it was
» 1.75(I
» ve been waiting the whole time). I will be the one who might benefit the
» most and this might pay off my Gho treatment :).
»
» I can’t use replicel on my bald head if it works hence im cashing this
» right after phase 1.
»
» Of course I base all the above on absolutely nothing. :smiley:

The reasoning in your answer suggests that any form of HM is pretty much impossible. Did I misread you?

» A lot of people have realized this potential hence they are ones who have
» invested in replicel like me. I recently bought the stock when it was
» 1.75(I

» ve been waiting the whole time). I will be the one who might benefit the
» most and this might pay off my Gho treatment :).

Lucky bastard, I’m in since January at 2.40. You gonna pop yourself a bottle of champagne after today?

» --Don’t they still exist in the miniaturized follicles in the bald areas of
» one’s scalp? If so, what is the benefit of moving different ones from a
» non-bald area? Won’t the new or regenerated follicle ultimately suffer the
» same fate as the previous one?

Same reason they don’t take DP cells from the balding regions of your scalp and inject them back into the same region in HM.

DSC cells from balding areas are DHT-susceptible and don’t help grow hair. DSC from non-balding regions are not DHT-susceptible and may help grow a lot of hair – I hope we’ll know something about that in a few days.

Don’t think of DSC cells as analogous to what some people claim about stem cells, that they’re these magical cells that exist all over your scalp and all you have to do is inject them in the right place and they miraculously grow hair. (That appears to be a misinterpretation of Cotsarelis’ findings, and maybe something that Cotsarelis has encouraged himself, at least by not explaining it clearly enough.)

First of all, if certain cells (DP cells, stem cells, DSC cells) are all over your scalp, then why aren’t they growing hair right NOW in balding people?

RepliCel is using DSC cells from the back of your scalp ONLY.

Think of DSC cells EXACTLY like DP cells, only with stronger hair growth properties. They’re genetically programmed to either be susceptible to DHT (and therefore be worthless at growing hair), or not susceptible to DHT (and therefore possibly have a tendency to grow hair), depending on where on the scalp they originate from.

And this location-specific genetic “map” of your scalp is just something inborn – it has to do with the programming of the DNA, which genes are programmed to be active or inactive in cells depending on where the cells are located.

Just like the cells in your chest cavity are programmed to become lung cells, and the cells inside your skull are programmed to become brain cells, the cells in different parts of your scalp also have different genetic instructions. This is an example of location-specific differential genetic programming of cells.

Some are programmed to go bald (in the MPB regions) and some are not (in the back and sides of your scalp).

Location, location, location!!!

» » A lot of people have realized this potential hence they are ones who
» have
» » invested in replicel like me. I recently bought the stock when it was
» » 1.75(I

» » ve been waiting the whole time). I will be the one who might benefit the
» » most and this might pay off my Gho treatment :).
»
»
» Lucky bastard, I’m in since January at 2.40. You gonna pop yourself a
» bottle of champagne after today?

there’s a big problem though that I decided to ignore :frowning: .

They’ve been promoting themselves and paying webpages to help them sell their stock these past few weeks. Which they wouldn’t need to if they had good results :(.

:no:

» there’s a big problem though that I decided to ignore :frowning: .
»
» They’ve been promoting themselves and paying webpages to help them sell
» their stock these past few weeks. Which they wouldn’t need to if they had
» good results :(.
»
» :no:

I agree, very disconcerting.

» They’ve been promoting themselves and paying webpages to help them sell
» their stock these past few weeks. Which they wouldn’t need to if they had
» good results :(.

You’re right about that, moawk. Their whole tone and promotional method is kind of fishy…

» Don’t think of DSC cells as analogous to what some people claim about stem
» cells, that they’re these magical cells that exist all over your scalp and
» all you have to do is inject them in the right place and they miraculously
» grow hair. (That appears to be a misinterpretation of Cotsarelis’
» findings, and maybe something that Cotsarelis has encouraged himself, at
» least by not explaining it clearly enough.)
»
» First of all, if certain cells (DP cells, stem cells, DSC cells) are all
» over your scalp, then why aren’t they growing hair right NOW in balding
» people?

For AGA patients (not e.g. alopecia areata patients!) you can inject “the most healthy” hair follicle (HF) stem cells from your “safe zone” as much as you want - it makes no sense as illustrated in the graphic above. The “sieve” itself is the problem. AGA patients need ALWAYS both: normal HF stem cells PLUS the most natural “sieve” - so to speak. The “sieve” itself is difficult to replicate/multiply and the “sieve” is more important for AGA patients than any stem cells!

» --Don’t they still exist in the miniaturized follicles in the bald areas of
» one’s scalp? If so, what is the benefit of moving different ones from a
» non-bald area? Won’t the new or regenerated follicle ultimately suffer the
» same fate as the previous one?
»
» Not saying that replicel won’t work, but if my concern holds true, this
» might explain why it was previously surmised that replicel would be more
» effective for women with diffuse loss. Perhaps men would require repeat
» procedures, or “booster” injections from time to time.

I agree with your point.

The important thing is that the size of the hair shaft is determined by the size of the dermal papilla, to increase the volume of the shaft, there needs to be an increase in DP cells in the bulb.

Now what might be possible is - DSC cells migrate and increase the size of the DS which may in turn increase the hair shaft slightly, but not a great cosmetic result. But that’s just me and my imagination.

The big question is - are Replicel creating new follicles de novo or simply stimulating existing ones? Replicel says latter, ARI says former. They are both using very similar procedures, and yet they’re making totally different claims.

THE Big question however is - how is Replicel maintaining hair forming capabilities after multiple passages? That’s been the key roadblock, and I’ve never heard a clear explanation other than “DSC cells might not need it” which is very unsubstantiated.

Many things here don’t add up, hence I’m skeptical of Replicel.

» » --Don’t they still exist in the miniaturized follicles in the bald areas
» of
» » one’s scalp? If so, what is the benefit of moving different ones from a
» » non-bald area? Won’t the new or regenerated follicle ultimately suffer
» the
» » same fate as the previous one?
» »
» » Not saying that replicel won’t work, but if my concern holds true, this
» » might explain why it was previously surmised that replicel would be more
» » effective for women with diffuse loss. Perhaps men would require repeat
» » procedures, or “booster” injections from time to time.
»
» I agree with your point.
»
» The important thing is that the size of the hair shaft is determined by the
» size of the dermal papilla, to increase the volume of the shaft, there
» needs to be an increase in DP cells in the bulb.
»
» Now what might be possible is - DSC cells migrate and increase the size of
» the DS which may in turn increase the hair shaft slightly, but not a great
» cosmetic result. But that’s just me and my imagination.
»
» The big question is - are Replicel creating new follicles de novo or simply
» stimulating existing ones? Replicel says latter, ARI says former. They are
» both using very similar procedures, and yet they’re making totally
» different claims.
»
» THE Big question however is - how is Replicel maintaining hair forming
» capabilities after multiple passages? That’s been the key roadblock, and
» I’ve never heard a clear explanation other than “DSC cells might not need
» it” which is very unsubstantiated.
»
»
» Many things here don’t add up, hence I’m skeptical of Replicel.

Many thanks for your responses. I understand DHT plays a roll in causing baldness, but from what I’ve gathered, DHT “chokes” the follicle so it shrinks to microscopic levels. If so, even if you replace the old DHT susceptible DSC cell with a “DHT resistant DSC cell”, wouldn’t the rest of the follicle components still have to overcome the DHT effect?

Dr. Hall says the procedure can produce increased hair diameter and length, which is quite a boast. I hope he’s right. OTOH, “DSC cells mght not need it” is another way of saying “we don’t know–haven’t gotten that far yet…”

Simply put, we have no idea. Those claiming otherwise are either experts or clueless. We can only guess.

Remember these experiments have not been done on humans. I wish they’d use macaques rather than mice for the experiments. (Macaques go bald too)

»
» Now using the Gho formula: 5 years since baldness = you’re fuked. You can
» see why they recruited nw3s man and women.
»
Where has this persistent notion that Replicel is only testing up to Norwood Class III come from. According to clinicaltrials.gov : “Males with androgenetic alopecia (AGA) involving the vertex area of the scalp, characterized as type III vertex- type VI on the Norwood Scale qualify for inclusion in the study.” Did Replicel state somewhere else they had only recruited Norwood III’s …, am I missing something here ?

» Simply put, we have no idea. Those claiming otherwise are either experts or
» clueless. We can only guess.

No. The guessing game is over since years. The REAL inventor of the Replicel procedure found finally out that his initial guess has proven to be right.

» Simply put, we have no idea. Those claiming otherwise are either experts or

» » Simply put, we have no idea. Those claiming otherwise are either experts
» or
» » clueless. We can only guess.
»
» No. The guessing game is over since years. The REAL inventor of the
» Replicel procedure found finally out that his initial guess has proven to
» be right.

Who are you referring to? Jahoda? Nobody else has focused on DSC cells.

» » Simply put, we have no idea. Those claiming otherwise are either experts
» or
»
»
»

Who is that?

» Who is that?

Coen Gho, Aka Jesus Christ

» » » Simply put, we have no idea. Those claiming otherwise are either
» experts
» » or
» » » We can only guess.
» »
» » No. The guessing game is over since years. The REAL inventor of the
» » Replicel procedure found finally out that his initial guess has proven
» » be right.
»
» Who are you referring to? Jahoda? Nobody else has focused on DSC cells.

Of course Jahoda. He is the REAL inventor of the Replicel procedure. He knows what works and what not works (and why) due to a lot of hardcore research since decades – and he is still doing this today.

Anyway, almost 10 years ago, Dr. Jahoda analyzed McElwee’s (TrichoScience/Replicel) findings concerning whether or not these findings for hair growth/hair regeneration are relevant or not and published his analysis/thoughts in the journal NATURE:
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v121/n6/full/5602054a.html

Here once again the ESSENTIAL parts of Jahoda’s analysis/thoughts in 2003:

These new findings [McElwee’s findings]
have particular significance for those interested in hair follicle restoration by transplantation of cultured follicle dermal cells, since up to now, the attempts to translate animal work to a human context has focused on the creation of completely new follicular structures.

The fact that follicle dermal cells [or “dermal sheath cup cells”] can be recruited into existing follicles suggests the possibility of augmenting the size of existing follicles rather than creating new ones.

In androgenetic alopecia [AGA],

  1. it raises the prospect of being able to convert small vellus follicles [or miniaturized follicles] into large terminal structures,

  2. or perhaps more realistically of halting the reduction of follicle size during the terminal to vellus transition, by the judicious local addition of appropriate cells.
    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

In this paragraph (above), Jahoda summarized in his own words the idea of the Replicel procedure. Here he already excluded the idea of “creating new follices” with this procedure due to his own research findings. This suggests, that IF such a procedure should be successful, you need EXISTING hair follicles in your balding areas;

  • either any circulating vellus hairs
  • or miniaturized terminal hairs.

That means, these still existing hairs MUST still be able to recruit (additional) cells. If not, because these follicles are 1) already too damaged or 2) simply not able anymore to recruit (additional) dermal cells with such a procedure, as described by Jahoda above, simply CAN’T work anymore, of course. But that’s -like Jahoda says- not the whole story …

In the next cited paragraph, in 2003, Jahoda tried to analyze the BIG in this thread discussed question concerning whether or not these so called “dermal sheath cup cells” (DSCS) are a SPECIFIC cell compartment/cell niche of the dermal sheath (DS) as a whole, which surrounds the whole hair follicle in general…

Dr. Jahoda: “This brings up the question of whether there [in the dermal sheath] are also specific DS cell compartments.

If McElwee et al are correct,
the close phenotypic and functional relationship between the DSC cells and the DP segregates them from the rest of the DS.

But what is the evidence that this is a specialized DS cell compartment?

In work using microinjected dyes to investigate compartmentalization within rodent follicles, no clear evidence was found for a junctional link between the papilla and adjoining dermal sheath cells (Kam and Hodgins, 1992;Choudhry et al, 1997).

However,
in a recently published paper in which the location and density of gap junctions was investigated in human hair follicles using EM and antibody staining, clear evidence of gap junctions was found within separate DP and DP compartments (Iguchi et al, 2003).

Moreover,
a particularly strong line of expression of gap junction proteins was observed at the base of the follicle exactly at the junction between the DP and the DS cells.

Indeed,
the authors postulated that these may “form a sort of functional syncytium through the gap junctions by which they may play a pivotal role in controlling hair growth and its cycle”.

Nevertheless
there is evidence that, functionally, dermal sheath cells from above the DSC are not dissimilar to those in the bulb region.

For example,
Oliver (1967) showed that dermal sheath cells from the middle of the follicle were able to regenerate a DP within implanted follicle sections.

Moreover,
another group have shown that dermal sheath cells from the upper half of follicles can regenerate when transplanted ectopically into the kidney capsule (Matsuzaki et al, 1996).

Therefore,
there are circumstances in which other follicle DS cells can become papilla cells.
These discrepancies may be explained by proximity of the DSC cells to the germinative epithelial cells, insofar as these cells may be “primed” by contact with epidermal cells to be inductive.

Generally speaking,
it suggests that the nature and role of the cells is [always] influenced,
as in most progenitor populations, by location."
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

In addition, Jahoda also tried to analyse the TYPE of cells located in this “specific” cell compartment/niche beneath the hair follicle bulb/dermal papilla and which role they may play for hair growth in general - but I do not explain this part in detail in this post/thread.

Anyway, Jahoda finally also published a highly simplified and speculative model diagram for the explanation of the KEY problem that he sees with this kind of “cell based procedure” what the Replicel claim to accomplish…
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v121/n6/fig_tab/5602054f1.html?url=/jid/journal/v121/n6/full/5602054a.html#figure-title

And here is IronMan’s simplified model diagram for HairSite readers…

Anyway, so far, at least here at HairSite, the answer to the BIG question whether or not Jahoda or IronMan are right or wrong with their “speculative model diagrams” is still not CEARLY answered – again, at least here at HairSite. In reality, the answer (by different experts in this field) already exists since years. So do you guys want to hear/read them?

If you just want the simple answer, whether or not the Replicel procedure is working or not for you as an AGA candidate, experts in this field KNOW it and say – NO. If you want to hear why exactly it doesn’t/can’t work – that’s another story for another post/thread…

As a matter of fact, Jahoda was (of course) right in 2003 - that’s the point. I assume Jahoda KNEW it already in 2003 and his paper/analysis was actually just a kind of “warning” and at the same time without trying to discourage researchers/scientists to proceed with their research work.

DO NOT QUOTE SUCH LONG POSTS!!

That’s all well and good but it doesn’t explain what has been happening in the real world for years. If Jahoda put the issue to rest a decade ago, then why would the Replicel crew work on it all this time anyway? They aren’t morons. They must have had some reason to doubt Jahoda’s conclusions at some point.

Bottom line, we don’t know how well Replicel is doing. All else is speculation.