Possible Follica Gotcha\'s

Stem cell; cell based hair therapy
1

I think we all know that Follica is backed by relatively legitimate science. There are people from world-renowned research universities (such as MIT, Harvard, UPenn) who are associated with the project. However, like most, I am very skeptical of whether anything beneficial will come from Follica.

I want to know what you guys think about the following arguments:

Follica won’t work because…

  1. the newly formed follicles will have the same susceptibility to male hormones as the hair that was already lost from bald areas of the scalp. Therefore, the new hair will suffer the same fate as its predecessors.

  2. the human immune system will kill the new follicles while they are forming. Even though Follica has been proven to work on human skin that was grafted onto a mouse, the procedure will not work on humans because of our bodies’ advanced immune systems.

  3. the procedure will not work consistently enough to be of any cosmetic benefit. Follica could suffer a similar fate to Intercytex.

What are your thoughts?

2

» I think we all know that Follica is backed by relatively legitimate
» science. There are people from world-renowned research universities (such
» as MIT, Harvard, UPenn) who are associated with the project. However, like
» most, I am very skeptical of whether anything beneficial will come from
» Follica.
»
» I want to know what you guys think about the following arguments:
»
» Follica won’t work because…
»
» 1. the newly formed follicles will have the same susceptibility to male
» hormones as the hair that was already lost from bald areas of the scalp.
» Therefore, the new hair will suffer the same fate as its predecessors.

That is a possibility, but you could go on an antiandrogen and maybe keep the new hair for a fairly long time.

You could simply repeat the procedure when you notice the hair thinning again. (may not be very safe to keep getting repeat procedures.)

David Steinberg (who is with Folica) thinks that the process will change the “micro environment” in the scalp so it will no longer be susceptible to DHT, their patent also mentions being on an antiandrogen while having the procedure which may help.

“David Steinberg 1/4/08 2:12 pm
I am with the company. While we have not tested this in humans yet we fully expect that hair will persist. There are multiple reasons for this. First of all, consider hair transplants - while they have other flaws, the hair does indeed persist despite the presence of circulating DHT. In a distinct, but similar way, the Follica treatment changes the microenvironment of the follicles. Further, a single hair cycle lasts several years, and at the very least the new hair should last one full cycle (because of the underlying physiology of the condition). Also, circulating levels of DHT actually drop over a man’s life. We have seen numerous clinical reports of patients showing sustained hair cycling when exposed to conditions similar to the treatment Follica is pursuing (in a carefully directed and controlled way).”

»
» 2. the human immune system will kill the new follicles while they are
» forming. Even though Follica has been proven to work on human skin that
» was grafted onto a mouse, the procedure will not work on humans because of
» our bodies’ advanced immune systems.
»

This is also possible, if it is a problem then suppressing the immune system for a short time while the follicles are forming may help and I’m sure is mentioned in the patents.

»
» 3. the procedure will not work consistently enough to be of any cosmetic
» benefit. Follica could suffer a similar fate to Intercytex.
»

Again possible, we wont know for sure until its tested on humans (as with the other possibilities) but it has shown to create great density on animals with human scalp skin (the procedure is completely different to ICX-TRC injecting DP cells, which IIRC had consistency problems in both humans and animals).
I am hopeful the density will be great but we can’t possibly say for sure at the moment.
Also you don’t really notice thinning hair until the density reaches about 50%, so to achieve a cosmetically acceptable look you would only need to re-create 50%-60% + of your natural density with Folicas method.

» What are your thoughts?

What I have been wondering about lately is the 2mm wound size a maximum or minimum size?, if it is indeed maximum then how would say an NW7 achieve good density, could they do it in one procedure (lots of little wounds)? or would one have to repeat every so often until desired density is achieved?

3

» Follica won’t work because…
»
» 1. the newly formed follicles will have the same susceptibility to male
» hormones as the hair that was already lost from bald areas of the scalp.
» Therefore, the new hair will suffer the same fate as its predecessors.

This is a crucial question. It should be rephrased, though: How long will the new follicles ‘last’ before succumbing to male hormones (it’s likely a matter of when, not if).

» 2. the human immune system will kill the new follicles while they are
» forming.

There should be no problems whatsoever from the immune system, since no foreign tissue is involved.

» 3. the procedure will not work consistently enough to be of any cosmetic
» benefit. Follica could suffer a similar fate to Intercytex.

Another important question. We won’t know until they complete trials.

4

» Follica won’t work because…
»
» 1. the newly formed follicles will have the same susceptibility to male
» hormones as the hair that was already lost from bald areas of the scalp.
» Therefore, the new hair will suffer the same fate as its predecessors.

How many decades did it take for your hair to fall out in the first place?

You people amaze me. You want hair to look exactly like when you were a teenager, and you want it to last forever, and ever, and ever, and you want to grow it instantly without any surgery or side effects (however minimal) and you want it to cost no more than $100 or you kick and scream and pout.

It took 25 years for my hair to fall out.

If I were 25 again, I’d give anything to have that hair back for another 25 years.

Being 60 years old, having my hair back until I’m 85 sounds like an even better deal.

» 2. the human immune system will kill the new follicles while they are
» forming. Even though Follica has been proven to work on human skin that
» was grafted onto a mouse, the procedure will not work on humans because of
» our bodies’ advanced immune systems.

There might be a problem with the immune system, but that’s only a guess, and if it is so, then it can probably be gotten around.

» 3. the procedure will not work consistently enough to be of any cosmetic
» benefit.

Anything is possible at this point because the trials haven’t been done. That’s why they have trials.

» Follica could suffer a similar fate to Intercytex.

And what fate is that–silence until they decide to say something?

5

» I think we all know that Follica is backed by relatively legitimate
» science. There are people from world-renowned research universities (such
» as MIT, Harvard, UPenn) who are associated with the project. However, like
» most, I am very skeptical of whether anything beneficial will come from
» Follica.
»
» I want to know what you guys think about the following arguments:
»
» Follica won’t work because…
»
» 1. the newly formed follicles will have the same susceptibility to male
» hormones as the hair that was already lost from bald areas of the scalp.
» Therefore, the new hair will suffer the same fate as its predecessors.
»
» 2. the human immune system will kill the new follicles while they are
» forming. Even though Follica has been proven to work on human skin that
» was grafted onto a mouse, the procedure will not work on humans because of
» our bodies’ advanced immune systems.
»
» 3. the procedure will not work consistently enough to be of any cosmetic
» benefit. Follica could suffer a similar fate to Intercytex.
»
» What are your thoughts?

1 & 2 are not relevant. 1, if the new hair is not DHT resistant, you simply go on antiandrogens and keep your new hair for 5 + years. Afterwards, you have the procedure again (or, more likely, a newer, more permanent treatment becomes available). 2, the new hair is not foreign in anyway - it won’t be attacked by the immune system anymore than your old hair (which is to say, it may have been, but it took several years and can be minimized with other treatments). 3, of course, is the real question.

6

DHT resistance:

I think it’s worth noting that the real-world cases of this don’t seem to be ruined by DHT right off.

I mean the real-world cases of guys sprouting patches of thick new hair on bald heads after scalp injuries. It might happen over a long period of years, but those hair regrowth stories in general usually go, “His hair regrew on that spot and it’s still there today!” They stories don’t usually go, “His hair regrew on that spot for 3 years but it fell out again.” It’s a small point, but I think a very important one.

And also, it’s well known that a hair follicle has to pass a certain “tipping point” before it has been exposed to enough DHT to start the real snowballing damage process. (I think there have been cases studied where if a DHT-lacking male’s follicles were not exposed to DHT during puberty, then MPB doesn’t happen even if the male gets exposed to adult levels of DHT later on.) So if we kept a reasonable amount of DHT shielding for the new Follica’d hairs with various anti-androgens, then possibly the new hairs might not pass that “tipping point” of exposure for a long, long time. If ever.

7

» » Follica won’t work because…
» »
» » 1. the newly formed follicles will have the same susceptibility to
» male
» » hormones as the hair that was already lost from bald areas of the scalp.
»
» » Therefore, the new hair will suffer the same fate as its predecessors.
»
» How many decades did it take for your hair to fall out in the first place?
»
»
» You people amaze me. You want hair to look exactly like when you were a
» teenager, and you want it to last forever, and ever, and ever, and you want
» to grow it instantly without any surgery or side effects (however minimal)
» and you want it to cost no more than $100 or you kick and scream and pout.
»
» It took 25 years for my hair to fall out.
»
» If I were 25 again, I’d give anything to have that hair back for another
» 25 years.
»
» Being 60 years old, having my hair back until I’m 85 sounds like an even
» better deal.
»
»
» » 2. the human immune system will kill the new follicles while they are
» » forming. Even though Follica has been proven to work on human skin
» that
» » was grafted onto a mouse, the procedure will not work on humans because
» of
» » our bodies’ advanced immune systems.
»
» There might be a problem with the immune system, but that’s only a guess,
» and if it is so, then it can probably be gotten around.
»
» » 3. the procedure will not work consistently enough to be of any
» cosmetic
» » benefit.
»
» Anything is possible at this point because the trials haven’t been done.
» That’s why they have trials.
»
» » Follica could suffer a similar fate to Intercytex.
»
» And what fate is that–silence until they decide to say something?

You’re kind of a jerk, aren’t you Ahab?:stuck_out_tongue:

8

» DHT resistance:
»
» I think it’s worth noting that the real-world cases of this don’t seem to
» be ruined by DHT right off.
»
» I mean the real-world cases of guys sprouting patches of thick new hair on
» bald heads after scalp injuries. It might happen over a long period of
» years, but those hair regrowth stories in general usually go, “His hair
» regrew on that spot and it’s still there today!” They stories don’t
» usually go, “His hair regrew on that spot for 3 years but it fell out
» again.” It’s a small point, but I think a very important one.
»
»
» And also, it’s well known that a hair follicle has to pass a certain
» “tipping point” before it has been exposed to enough DHT to start the real
» snowballing damage process. (I think there have been cases studied where
» if a DHT-lacking male’s follicles were not exposed to DHT during puberty,
» then MPB doesn’t happen even if the male gets exposed to adult levels of
» DHT later on.) So if we kept a reasonable amount of DHT shielding for the
» new Follica’d hairs with various anti-androgens, then possibly the new
» hairs might not pass that “tipping point” of exposure for a long, long
» time. If ever.

absolutely, if one is willing to be on finasteride and use nizoral a couple of times a week, they’d almost assuredly keep this hair…even at the temples for a long long time. Fluridil is out there for folks who just cant bear the thought of finasteride. All we have to do is make the hair up there. Knowing what I know now, Im certain I could keep it.

9

» I mean the real-world cases of guys sprouting patches of thick new hair on
» bald heads after scalp injuries. It might happen over a long period of
» years, but those hair regrowth stories in general usually go, “His hair
» regrew on that spot and it’s still there today!” They stories don’t
» usually go, “His hair regrew on that spot for 3 years but it fell out
» again.” It’s a small point, but I think a very important one.

That’s the key characteristic I’m really hoping applies to Follica as well. This would mean that we don’t need to worry about DHT blockers and other crap like that.

10

» I mean the real-world cases of guys sprouting patches of thick new hair on
» bald heads after scalp injuries. It might happen over a long period of
» years, but those hair regrowth stories in general usually go, “His hair
» regrew on that spot and it’s still there today!” They stories don’t
» usually go, “His hair regrew on that spot for 3 years but it fell out
» again.” It’s a small point, but I think a very important one.

I was wondering where you heard about some of these real-world cases. If what you say is true, then one of our gotcha’s is void. Can you point me to a link or two that describes one of these cases?

11

I don’t have a nice link off the top of my head, but it’s a known thing to occur and somebody else probably does. We’re not just talking about 4 or 5 cases here.

As I understand it, some legit dermatologists have reported seeing it after doing abrasion & other skin work on people. And with big injuries on the scalp that heal up.

Even in the ICX-TRC project, the infamous “scalp stimulation” did as much as anything to boost their regrowth results.

12

story is not a truth. It’s a normal human behaviour to make stories better. There are UFO close encounter stories every day. Everyone on this forum could clearly see how stories are different from the truth. See ICX stories on the net, and compare it to the outcome.

13

All your arguments are very legit.

DHT issues - yes this can happen, you get on propecia and will be balding for few more years before your immune system once again finishes the job (immune system is able to learn, so it will take less then your previous balding took). You will live with messed up hair, and girls will be making fun of you behind your back as they did when you tried sporting that stupid comb over for the first time

Immune system - yes, this may be the reason why most of the mouse proven treatments do not work on humans.

Quality of hair - yes, this may happen as well, but if only this was a case, I’m sure some guys would be happy to just trim their hair to very short and live with an illusion of full head of hair.

14

Christ, I don’t wanna start trying to dig up proof on a bunch of random stuff I read/heard at different times & places.

I already know it’s true. I’m feeling too lazy to prove it to you just because you & I have different tones about every HM post we make.

You win Debris, okay?

I admit that HM is unreliable research, it’s full of dreamers and money-raisers who need belief in their work more than they need the truth to be circulating, people should not pin their hopes on HM because it’s never coming since it never has yet in the past, even if it does come it will have to be overpriced and under-producing for the first decade because anything else would be too good to be true, etc.

15

»
» You win Debris, okay?
»

Okay mate :slight_smile:

16

Hello! I’m italian! At first excuse me for my english

If the follica’s metod works, we could promote the reghrowt of follicles

behind our head after an extraction in a surgery, so with a very good fUE

made by an expert doctor in hair transplant and an illimitate donor area, we

could make an end of our problem!!!:slight_smile: