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Mice in a different look


#1

Hello my friends,
I just finished reading a study that benji linked to. In this study the bottom line was “This report shows that miniaturized hair follicles of pattern alopecia can quickly regenerate once removed from the human scalp and can grow as well as or better than terminal follicles from the same individual.”

So first I would like to pose a question: In that same topic some people claimed that hair follicles never die, and always remain in the scalp, even when a man has gone nw7. is this claim true(scientific proof)?

if so, why not take out the immune battered, balled, hair follicles from someone with a nw7, and graft them onto immunodeficient mice. then let all the bad influence of the human immune system wear off, and graft them back into the original person. Sure after some time they would be attacked again, maybe a week maybe a year who knows? but no matter for how much time, this could be the best option humans have today bringing back all of their hair follicles.

GUYS…?


#2

Can you post any studies, experiments, sites, etc.

From my understanding when a bald spot on your head stays bald i.e shiny for atleast 2-3 yrs then the follicle is pretty much history. However, I do not think there is scientific evidence to back this notion up. And this is why the topic of reviving dormant follicles with some docs.

» Hello my friends,
» I just finished reading a study that benji linked to. In this study the
» bottom line was “This report shows that miniaturized hair follicles of
» pattern alopecia can quickly regenerate once removed from the human scalp
» and can grow as well as or better than terminal follicles from the same
» individual.”
»
» So first I would like to pose a question: In that same topic some people
» claimed that hair follicles never die, and always remain in the scalp, even
» when a man has gone nw7. is this claim true(scientific proof)?
»
» if so, why not take out the immune battered, balled, hair follicles from
» someone with a nw7, and graft them onto immunodeficient mice. then let all
» the bad influence of the human immune system wear off, and graft them back
» into the original person. Sure after some time they would be attacked
» again, maybe a week maybe a year who knows? but no matter for how much
» time, this could be the best option humans have today bringing back all of
» their hair follicles.
»
» GUYS…?


#3

We’re speculating past what has been really tested I suspect.

Either way the “grow it on the back of a mouse” solution is impractical so I doubt it’s been studied much. It might even work to some extent, but there’s no way in hell that it’s any less expensive/risky than existing meds & transplant methods.

The original follicles are there. They don’t leave. The body doesn’t eat them. They just don’t operate to produce hair anymore once MPB has really shut them down. It’s as if the follicle has gone into the “resting” stage of the cycle and never comes back out of it.

In a few years the “dead” follicles develop some fibrosis (scarring), which seems to be the end of any chance of improvement from the existing MPB meds the vast majority of the time.

(But the fibrosis alone IS NOT the central issue keeping the follicle dead. If the follicle is reactivated with some of the more radical experimental methods like a mouse transplant or something, the new emerging hair shaft easily shoves the fibrosis aside and grows normally. I can’t remember the circumstances but it has been done before.)


#4

» We’re speculating past what has been really tested I suspect.
»
» Either way the “grow it on the back of a mouse” solution is impractical so
» I doubt it’s been studied much. It might even work to some extent, but
» there’s no way in hell that it’s any less expensive/risky than existing
» meds & transplant methods.
»
»
»
»
» The original follicles are there. They don’t leave. The body doesn’t eat
» them. They just don’t operate to produce hair anymore once MPB has really
» shut them down. It’s as if the follicle has gone into the “resting” stage
» of the cycle and never comes back out of it.
»
» In a few years the “dead” follicles develop some fibrosis (scarring),
» which seems to be the end of any chance of improvement from the existing
» MPB meds the vast majority of the time.
»
» (But the fibrosis alone IS NOT the central issue keeping the
» follicle dead.
If the follicle is reactivated with some of the more
» radical experimental methods like a mouse transplant or something, the new
» emerging hair shaft easily shoves the fibrosis aside and grows normally. I
» can’t remember the circumstances but it has been done before.)

impractical? It sounds more practical to me then using a med that lowers your libido levels, gives you sexual problems and can lead to depression.

And at least as practical as taking follicles out of one part of the head, and transplanting them on another one.

Besides, humanity is looking for a way to retrieve all of a males hair back. And if grafting follicles on a mouse is the solution, then believe me my friend, there will be people willing to .


#5

» » We’re speculating past what has been really tested I suspect.
» »
» » Either way the “grow it on the back of a mouse” solution is impractical
» so
» » I doubt it’s been studied much. It might even work to some extent, but
» » there’s no way in hell that it’s any less expensive/risky than existing
» » meds & transplant methods.
» »
» »
» »
» »
» » The original follicles are there. They don’t leave. The body doesn’t
» eat
» » them. They just don’t operate to produce hair anymore once MPB has
» really
» » shut them down. It’s as if the follicle has gone into the “resting”
» stage
» » of the cycle and never comes back out of it.
» »
» » In a few years the “dead” follicles develop some fibrosis (scarring),
» » which seems to be the end of any chance of improvement from the
» existing
» » MPB meds the vast majority of the time.
» »
» » (But the fibrosis alone IS NOT the central issue keeping the
» » follicle dead.
If the follicle is reactivated with some of the
» more
» » radical experimental methods like a mouse transplant or something, the
» new
» » emerging hair shaft easily shoves the fibrosis aside and grows normally.
» I
» » can’t remember the circumstances but it has been done before.)
»
» impractical? It sounds more practical to me then using a med that lowers
» your libido levels, gives you sexual problems and can lead to depression.
»
» And at least as practical as taking follicles out of one part of the head,
» and transplanting them on another one.
»
» Besides, humanity is looking for a way to retrieve all of a males hair
» back. And if grafting follicles on a mouse is the solution, then believe me
» my friend, there will be people willing to .

If we assume the average human head has 100,000 hairs and an nw7 loses 60% of them (both likely conservative estimates), that is 60,000 hairs to take off the head and put on mice.

If we assume the follicles could simply be FUEd off the head (which would probably be one hell of an accomplishment since you can’t even see them) a conservative estimate of existing hair transplant cost for that procedure would be $4.00ish a hair.

Add the additional cost per hair of implanting them on immunodeficient mice, retrieving them off the mice, cleaning, and reimplanting and I could see it easily reaching $10+ dollars per hair.

So by all around conservative estimates you are looking at $600,000.00+ dollars to get all your hair back.

… it ain’t worth it.


#6

For the author of the thread…

What happens is that over time, the MPB follicles (which become vellus hairs in size and are still there on your head, look very close in very good light…those used to be your hairs) become “vellus” like and stay in the rest phase much longer than normal. But something else happens. As Haroldo once pointed out on another forum, a type of molecule under the follicle called CD200 becomes lost. CD200 is a cell-type that apparently tells the immune system to NOT ATTACK THE FOLLICLES. So when you lose these, the immune system still attacks the follicles even if you are taking a DHT inhibitor. Thats why so little hair grows back in the front when people get on finasteride, but finasteride does so much better with apes like macaques. The immunological component.

Its not really practical to transplant the vellus hairs to mice, after they have lost the cd200 molecule, and put them back on your head…they’d just get small again.

The best solution to baldness in the remote future is either Aderans or Follica’s approaches. Aderans would probably be better than Follicas because the hairs created should be brand new donor-area-like hairs. We dont know how good the Follica hairs will be against hormone. Hopefully some genes will be able to be topically blocked during the follica process and the new hairs created will be donor like. If they could find the exact gene on chromosome 20 that influences baldness, and the ectodysplasin gene, and block them both during the “hair-making” phase up there…we might be in the clear.

Dr. Hideo Uno noted that in stumptailed Macaques (an ape), pattern baldness doesn’t have an immuno or inflammatory component like it does in men. This is why minoxidil and finasteride work so much better on them than us.


#7

Here’s a patent to treat hair loss via CD200. Too complicated for me to understand. Maybe somebody can translate this to English.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2005/0169870.html


#8

I dont necessarily agree that all of your follicles are still there if you’re nw7

though good portion of them probably are, some can easily get rejected by your immune system completely. The follicle shrinks to such a small size at the end point that your body can easily eject it out. in fact i have seen this happen to me in front. i saw very very very tiny small hair (i mean like 2mm long, and at the end of the hair i could see transparent bulb (white cell stuff that your immune system wraps stuff with, and inside of it i could see what looked to me like very tiny follicle (rly microscopic almost).


#9

» I dont necessarily agree that all of your follicles are still there if
» you’re nw7
»
» though good portion of them probably are, some can easily get rejected by
» your immune system completely. The follicle shrinks to such a small size at
» the end point that your body can easily eject it out. in fact i have seen
» this happen to me in front. i saw very very very tiny small hair (i mean
» like 2mm long, and at the end of the hair i could see transparent bulb
» (white cell stuff that your immune system wraps stuff with, and inside of
» it i could see what looked to me like very tiny follicle (rly microscopic
» almost).

and no its not like if you pull your hair out with the white stuff attached to it. thats not what im talking about.


#10

Assuming that MPB actually represents an immune attack at all, which I don’t think is really confirmed. And assuming that it would continue going that far.


#11

What I understand is effectively that hairs don’t die but stop growing at normal size and lose their color.

Mice transplanting is not a solution cause if you had the hairs implanted back onto your head you would be getting mice´s cells (with their virus, bacteries, etc). Not a good thing.
It is an experiment to show that hairs don’t die but I think that’s all.

A doctor should try to implant those vellus haris from the scalp to a leg, chest or the most appropriate place (maybe on the back on the head) and see what happens.
That could be a sort of HM.

Anyone in contact with pioneer doctors to tell them to try this?


#12

This is one of the first articles i read which explained that men with MPB have the same amount of Follicles as men who don’t have MPB. It’s 8yrs old but still a good read if your interested.


#13

» This is one of the first articles i read which explained that men with MPB
» have the same amount of Follicles as men who don’t have MPB. It’s 8yrs old
» but still a good read if your interested.
»
» http://www.curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=146927

Exactly Dogstar.

Dr. Peter Proctor (check out his site folks) has quite a bit of information on the pathiogenesis of baldness and why cyclosporin might be the most effective regrowth agent we have. You dont really “lose” your hairs, Ive read this in several places, they just get so small that its hard to even see them with the naked eye.

Believe it or not the human forehead is where your hair is the most dense. But they are tiny. Look close in good light…


#14

»
» Exactly Dogstar.
»
» Dr. Peter Proctor (check out his site folks) has quite a bit of
» information on the pathiogenesis of baldness and why cyclosporin might be
» the most effective regrowth agent we have. You dont really “lose” your
» hairs, Ive read this in several places, they just get so small that its
» hard to even see them with the naked eye.
»
» Believe it or not the human forehead is where your hair is the
» most dense. But they are tiny. Look close in good light…

Has anyone ever done a study on hairloss in people who are suffering from diseases of immunity (AIDS, etc.)?


#15

WS-2-DCD200 Attenuates Hair Follicle-specific Inflammation in MiceSpeaker: Michael RosenblumMedical College of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, WI, USAAuthors: Michael D. Rosenblum1,2, Robert L. Truitt1, Jeffrey E. Woodliff1, Edit B. Olasz2, and Kim B. Yancey3.1 Department of Pediatrics, 2Department of Dermatology, Medical College of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, WI3 Department of Dermatology, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas,

TXImmunosuppressive molecules expressed on tissue-resident cells have the potential to regulate tissue-specific inflammation and autoimmunity. CD200 is a cell surface glycoprotein that transmits an immunosuppressive signal by ligating its receptor, CD200R. We have elucidated the expression of CD200 and CD200R in murine skin and examined the role of CD200-CD200R signaling in maintaining cutaneous immune homeostasis. CD200 was expressed on Langerhans cells (LCs) and on a subset of keratinocytes (KCs). CD200 expressing KCs preferentially localized to the outer root sheath of hair follicles (HF). CD200R was expressed on approximately one-third of freshly isolated LCs. LCs from CD200-/-mice showed a heightened state of activation. CD200 expression had a dramatic effect on protecting HFs from inflammation and autoimmune attack. Grafts of syngeneic gender-matched skin from CD200-/-donors showed persistent perifollicular inflammation with heightened T cell-recruitment and, ultimately, complete destruction of HFs, a phenotype resembling human cicatricial alopecia. Hair follicle destruction could be induced in a CD200-/-host by adoptive transfer of T cells from a mouse previously grafted with CD200-/-skin. Our results suggest that the CD200-CD200R signaling pathway plays a role in establishing and maintaining immune homeostasis in the skin. This pathway may be especially important in attenuating HF-associated inflammation and immunity

What they are saying (in red) is that when you put hairs in a CD200 NEGATIVE hhost, and transfer T-cells from a mouse that previously had skin without CD200, the immunity would kill the follicles. Well, CD200 is lost in advanced cases of AGA. The hairs probably stay in telogen to protect themsleves from a never-ending immno attack.

BTW----Did anybody else see that bit on “why hair greys”? They have found that hairs grey because the body ends up bathing the melanocytes in hydrogen peroxide for whatever reason. It causes them to become non-active, and they dont pigment the hairs anymore. Facsinating stuff.

I dont have time to google hairloss and AIDS, but I think that I remember some of those strong AIDS drugs have hairloss side effects.