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Immunosuppression with Cyclosporine


#1

First hello everyone I’m new on this forum. :wink:

I was reading some very interesting posts of users trying to replicate Follica patent. Excellent work guys! Cyclosporine seems to be mentioned a lot.

I was wondering why do you have to use Cyclo orally and not opt for something much safer like corticosteroids which have very potent immunosuppressive properties but only locally.

I’ve used corticosteroids in the past to treat scalp inflammation and itch associated with MPB. They indeed work and work great. I used betamethasone and mometasone. All MPB signs very gone quickly. My scalp felt like a zillion bucks.

It does not surprise me at all that reports of corticosteroids growing hair are coming out. I’m a firm believer that immune system is THE biggest player in MPB.
Stop immune system and you basically stop MPB. Of course stopping immune system long term is not really a solution.


#2

I was wondering why do you have to use Cyclo orally and not opt for something much safer like corticosteroids which have very potent immunosuppressive properties but only locally.

Cotsarialis noted that Kligman had observed some de noveau hair follicle formation back in the seventies on some acne dermabrasion patients. These folks were probably given corticosteroids as pain relievers topically for this. I wondered about this possibility myself.

To be honest, with the 2 human “whack” hair growth cases associated with getfitinib being former chemo patients, the process looks like this:

Suppress immune system a great deal. Wound. Wait for re-epilithialization to take place, inhibit EGF for a period of time. That period of time might be as much as seven days or so if human skin forms the hairs on the same time table as the mouse skin does. In mice, the re-epilithialization takes place by day ten, but if wnt is inhibited from day 11-14, only a few hairs form. If wnt is inhibited from days 14-17, only a few hairs form. Only when wnt was not suppressed on days 11-17 did some 96 hair form in the little wounded area (a cm or so). Apparently during these “hair making days”, the process can be phucked up.

I only had enough cyclo for the first nine days. To be honest, I dont think I re-epilithialized until about day 8 or 9, just as I was running out. The amount of cyclo I took probably wasn’t enough either. To be honest, Im going to guess that the level of immuno suppression necessary post-epidermal disruption probably needs to be about 200 mgs, twice a day, for about 17 to 20 days to make sure that you fully re-epilithialize and the immune response is quashed for the entire “hair-making” period of about 7 days.

What threw me was that hair placodes formed and were detected by day 7 in the human skin experiment. SO I was thinking that 9-10 days would be “enough”, but after considering that using wnt on days 14-17 in the mice could pretty much screw up the whole process (either 2 or 3 hairs formed when this was done), Its probably necessary to be on cyclo and getfitinib a little longer than I wanted/hoped for. Getfitinib should only be necessary post-re-epilithialization, which would be —safely for most---- from about day 6 to day 14 or so just to make sure. The cyclo would probably help with the acne side effect which you’d certainly be getting by that time. Hyperkeratinization is legion with getfitnib. It induces an immune response that includes inflammation and ‘white-heads’.

At this date, my experiment in which I even abstained from head washing (except on day 8.5 post wounding), and used cyclo for nine days post wounding, and getfitinib from day 6 to day 10 or 11, would have to be classified as a total failure. Ive seen nothing. Its been a month since I did the wounding. I expect nada at this point. But I did try it for all of us and everybody now knows that those parameters are insufficient.


#3

I’m gonna hit the cyclo harder & longer. At this point, the immune system effects are the only thing separating our attempts from the Folica mouse trials and the Genfilitib patients.

The bottom line is that theirs worked, ours didn’t, and the immune system is the only known difference. In the long run I don’t see how we could fail if we’re willing to hit our immune systems hard enough.

It has also occured to me that maybe a combination might help us. Take as much oral cyclo as we feel is safe + local/topical suppressive efforts on the scalp at the same time.


#4

» I’m gonna hit the cyclo harder & longer. At this point, the immune system
» effects are the only thing separating our attempts from the Folica mouse
» trials …

only if you are a mouse with human skin grafted on your back


#5

If anyone can name another remotely likely difference, I’m listening.


#6

» If anyone can name another remotely likely difference, I’m listening.

First difference: you’re not a mouse


#7

Benji, have to looked to see what the differences are between your experiment and mikewalters own? He seems to be having some success.


#8

» Benji, have to looked to see what the differences are between your
» experiment and mikewalters own? He seems to be having some success.

Easy one, topical vs, internal…


#9

»» I only had enough cyclo for the first nine days. To be honest, I dont
» think I re-epilithialized until about day 8 or 9, just as I was running
» out. The amount of cyclo I took probably wasn’t enough either. To be
» honest, Im going to guess that the level of immuno suppression necessary
» post-epidermal disruption probably needs to be about 200 mgs, twice a day,
» for about 17 to 20 days to make sure that you fully re-epilithialize and
» the immune response is quashed for the entire “hair-making” period of about
» 7 days.
»
»
»
» What threw me was that hair placodes formed and were detected by day 7 in
» the human skin experiment. SO I was thinking that 9-10 days would be
» “enough”, but after considering that using wnt on days 14-17 in the mice
» could pretty much screw up the whole process (either 2 or 3 hairs formed
» when this was done), Its probably necessary to be on cyclo and getfitinib a
» little longer than I wanted/hoped for. Getfitinib should only be necessary
» post-re-epilithialization, which would be —safely for most---- from about
» day 6 to day 14 or so just to make sure. The cyclo would probably help with
» the acne side effect which you’d certainly be getting by that time.
» Hyperkeratinization is legion with getfitnib. It induces an immune response
» that includes inflammation and ‘white-heads’.
»
»
»
»
» At this date, my experiment in which I even abstained from head washing
» (except on day 8.5 post wounding), and used cyclo for nine days post
» wounding, and getfitinib from day 6 to day 10 or 11, would have to be
» classified as a total failure. Ive seen nothing. Its been a month since I
» did the wounding. I expect nada at this point. But I did try it for all of
» us and everybody now knows that those parameters are insufficient.

I should think that ‘the window’ varies from person to person. I’d say it also depends on severity of wound and possibly the nutritional diet of the person. I’d also say that in practice, a commercial version of this process would require laboratory monitoring of the area on key days to establish the beginning and end of ‘the window’. I don’t really think that we can say, ‘start inhibiting EGF on Day X’ as it’s probably individual.
I also do not think the immunosuppression is quite as important as it is being stressed here.


#10

» I also do not think the immunosuppression is quite as important as it is
» being stressed here.

and you are right


#11

Cyclo has never been shown to be effective on its own. Sure, there are outlier cases of solid organ transplant patients growing some hair, but it has not been shown to be widespread.


#12

Nobody is saying cyclo is the answer!

Nobody is saying EGF-R or WNT influencing is the answer!

We’re saying we think

BOTH TOGETHER AT JUST THE RIGHT SPECIFIC TIMES

is the answer, god dammit!


#13

And don’t tell me about a goddamn mouse!

A couple of cancer patients’ accidental results speak volumes about whether this may really work!

AND YOU KNOW THIS!


#14

» And don’t tell me about a goddamn mouse!
»
»
» A couple of cancer patients’ accidental results speak volumes about
» whether this may really work!
»
»
»
» AND YOU KNOW THIS!

I only have seen the one. it looked like gefinitib + sunburn effect.


#15

» »» I only had enough cyclo for the first nine days. To be honest, I dont
» » think I re-epilithialized until about day 8 or 9, just as I was running
» » out. The amount of cyclo I took probably wasn’t enough either. To be
» » honest, Im going to guess that the level of immuno suppression
» necessary
» » post-epidermal disruption probably needs to be about 200 mgs, twice a
» day,
» » for about 17 to 20 days to make sure that you fully re-epilithialize
» and
» » the immune response is quashed for the entire “hair-making” period of
» about
» » 7 days.
» »
» »
» »
» » What threw me was that hair placodes formed and were detected by day 7
» in
» » the human skin experiment. SO I was thinking that 9-10 days would be
» » “enough”, but after considering that using wnt on days 14-17 in the
» mice
» » could pretty much screw up the whole process (either 2 or 3 hairs
» formed
» » when this was done), Its probably necessary to be on cyclo and
» getfitinib a
» » little longer than I wanted/hoped for. Getfitinib should only be
» necessary
» » post-re-epilithialization, which would be —safely for most---- from
» about
» » day 6 to day 14 or so just to make sure. The cyclo would probably help
» with
» » the acne side effect which you’d certainly be getting by that time.
» » Hyperkeratinization is legion with getfitnib. It induces an immune
» response
» » that includes inflammation and ‘white-heads’.
» »
» »
» »
» »
» » At this date, my experiment in which I even abstained from head washing
» » (except on day 8.5 post wounding), and used cyclo for nine days post
» » wounding, and getfitinib from day 6 to day 10 or 11, would have to be
» » classified as a total failure. Ive seen nothing. Its been a month since
» I
» » did the wounding. I expect nada at this point. But I did try it for all
» of
» » us and everybody now knows that those parameters are insufficient.
»
» I should think that ‘the window’ varies from person to person. I’d say it
» also depends on severity of wound and possibly the nutritional diet of the
» person. I’d also say that in practice, a commercial version of this process
» would require laboratory monitoring of the area on key days to establish
» the beginning and end of ‘the window’. I don’t really think that we can
» say, ‘start inhibiting EGF on Day X’ as it’s probably individual.
» I also do not think the immunosuppression is quite as important as it is
» being stressed here.

Honestly speaking, although I did use immunos (topical), the results I’m seeing is from my 1st try at this when I just used wounding + topical getfitnib. I was already seeing things happening when I started the second experiment. Immunos didn’t seem to accelerate things for me. My personal thoughts are to inhibit wnt for x(days) then boost wnt with topical lithium afterwards – all the while using topical getfitnib 2x’s a day for the whole course of the treatment.


#16

Relax. I did not mean to tread on your sensibilities. It is only my opinion that cyclosporine will not do anything for you and is a complete waste of money and time and a potential risk to your health. I will be delighted if you can prove me wrong.


#17

Sorry I overreacted.

I just feel like some of the criticizms on here are examples of people wanting to want to win the debate point even when they know the point is incorrect.