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I\'m still considering an oral Leflunomide try


#1

I’ve been reading up some on this drug and I may still try it orally for the Folica method.

The serious risk is there, but it seems to be pretty tied to the Rhematoid Arthritis conditions that the drug is typically being used to treat. And something like 200,000 people have used this stuff. It can’t be killing everybody who tries it.

The normal usage has been to stay on it for months & years on end, whereas I’m talking a week and a half for a Folica try. I’m pretty healthy in the big picture, I’m not asian, I don’t smoke, and I don’t have RA in the first place.

I’m not sure what to think about the loading dose though. The recommended dosage has been 100mg/day for three days and then get into the regular 10/20mg per day after that. But now the more recent info has frowned upon the loading dose as part of the serious risk factors. (No big surprise here - if something is gonna hurt you, then dumping it into your body in large quantities at the start probably increases the risk right then.)

But for a Folica try, there’s no way to skip the loading dose and still get anything out of this. This stuff has been estimated to take as much as two months to get effective on just the regular small daily dose alone. If I’m gonna do this, it’s gonna have to include taking a couple hundred milligrams in only a few days time to get it started.

I dunno. If I do this, maybe I’ll take a 200-mg loading dose over the course of 3 days rather than the original 300mg recommendation, and then little or nothing after that for the rest of the week and a half. Then some activated charcoal to rapidly kick the Arava back out of my body after the Folica period is up.

Any thoughts?

Am I crazy to consider this?

Is it reasonable, it’s just an arthritis drug, and I’m just the only one with balls around here?

I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff in my life, including some perscription and nonperscription drugs, and this one just doesn’t seem that scary in the big picture.


#2

» I’ve been reading up some on this drug and I may still try it orally for
» the Folica method.
»
» The serious risk is there, but it seems to be pretty tied to the Rhematoid
» Arthritis conditions that the drug is typically being used to treat. And
» something like 200,000 people have used this stuff. It can’t be killing
» everybody who tries it.
»
» The normal usage has been to stay on it for months & years on end, whereas
» I’m talking a week and a half for a Folica try. I’m pretty healthy in the
» big picture, I’m not asian, I don’t smoke, and I don’t have RA in the first
» place.
»
»
» I’m not sure what to think about the loading dose though. The recommended
» dosage has been 100mg/day for three days and then get into the regular
» 10/20mg per day after that. But now the more recent info has frowned upon
» the loading dose as part of the serious risk factors. (No big surprise
» here - if something is gonna hurt you, then dumping it into your body in
» large quantities at the start probably increases the risk right then.)
»
»
»
» But for a Folica try, there’s no way to skip the loading dose and still
» get anything out of this. This stuff has been estimated to take as much as
» two months to get effective on just the regular small daily dose alone. If
» I’m gonna do this, it’s gonna have to include taking a couple hundred
» milligrams in only a few days time to get it started.
»
»
» I dunno. If I do this, maybe I’ll take a 200-mg loading dose over the
» course of 3 days rather than the original 300mg recommendation, and then
» little or nothing after that for the rest of the week and a half. Then
» some activated charcoal to rapidly kick the Arava back out of my body after
» the Folica period is up.
»
»
»
»
» Any thoughts?
»
» Am I crazy to consider this?
»
» Is it reasonable, it’s just an arthritis drug, and I’m just the only one
» with balls around here?
»
» I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff in my life, including some perscription
» and nonperscription drugs, and this one just doesn’t seem that scary in the
» big picture.

Supposedly, my generic getfitinib is on the way Cal. Im probably going to try it orally for about five days post re-epilithialization after a TCA peel. I’ll also be on an anti-androgen and be taking arginine (mentioned in the first patent). I hope it gets here next week. Im ready to give it a shot and get it over with…


#3

A Lung issue?

Thats listed in Gefinitibs sideefects as well.


#4

» Supposedly, my generic getfitinib is on the way Cal. Im probably going to
» try it orally for about five days post re-epilithialization after a TCA
» peel. I’ll also be on an anti-androgen and be taking arginine (mentioned in
» the first patent). I hope it gets here next week. Im ready to give it a
» shot and get it over with…

This is almost the exact thing I am going to do, minus the arginine. TCA peel plus gefitinib. I am also on 1 mg/day of dutasteride, plus some miscellaneous drugs and supplements. I plan on doing the peel/wounding this coming Wednesday or Thursday.


#5

» I’ve been reading up some on this drug and I may still try it orally for
» the Folica method.
»
» Any thoughts?
»
» Am I crazy to consider this?

As long as you’re healthy (lung wise) and don’t have the risk factors, you’re likely to be fine, IMO.


#6

» As long as you’re healthy (lung wise) and don’t have the risk factors,
» you’re likely to be fine, IMO.

The problem for Follica, of course, is that many people with the risk factors will likely want to get their hair loss treated. Which means Follica needs to have a safe topical.


#7

» » I’ve been reading up some on this drug and I may still try it orally for
» » the Folica method.
» »
» » The serious risk is there, but it seems to be pretty tied to the
» Rhematoid
» » Arthritis conditions that the drug is typically being used to treat.
» And
» » something like 200,000 people have used this stuff. It can’t be
» killing
» » everybody who tries it.
» »
» » The normal usage has been to stay on it for months & years on end,
» whereas
» » I’m talking a week and a half for a Folica try. I’m pretty healthy in
» the
» » big picture, I’m not asian, I don’t smoke, and I don’t have RA in the
» first
» » place.
» »
» »
» » I’m not sure what to think about the loading dose though. The
» recommended
» » dosage has been 100mg/day for three days and then get into the regular
» » 10/20mg per day after that. But now the more recent info has frowned
» upon
» » the loading dose as part of the serious risk factors. (No big surprise
» » here - if something is gonna hurt you, then dumping it into your body
» in
» » large quantities at the start probably increases the risk right then.)
» »
» »
» »
» » But for a Folica try, there’s no way to skip the loading dose and still
» » get anything out of this. This stuff has been estimated to take as much
» as
» » two months to get effective on just the regular small daily dose alone.
» If
» » I’m gonna do this, it’s gonna have to include taking a couple hundred
» » milligrams in only a few days time to get it started.
» »
» »
» » I dunno. If I do this, maybe I’ll take a 200-mg loading dose over the
» » course of 3 days rather than the original 300mg recommendation, and
» then
» » little or nothing after that for the rest of the week and a half. Then
» » some activated charcoal to rapidly kick the Arava back out of my body
» after
» » the Folica period is up.
» »
» »
» »
» »
» » Any thoughts?
» »
» » Am I crazy to consider this?
» »
» » Is it reasonable, it’s just an arthritis drug, and I’m just the only
» one
» » with balls around here?
» »
» » I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff in my life, including some perscription
» » and nonperscription drugs, and this one just doesn’t seem that scary in
» the
» » big picture.
»
»
» Supposedly, my generic getfitinib is on the way Cal. Im probably going to
» try it orally for about five days post re-epilithialization after a TCA
» peel. I’ll also be on an anti-androgen and be taking arginine (mentioned in
» the first patent). I hope it gets here next week. Im ready to give it a
» shot and get it over with…

Benji, what % of a tca peel are u gonna do?


#8

»
» Any thoughts?
»
» Am I crazy to consider this?
»
» Is it reasonable, it’s just an arthritis drug, and I’m just the only one
» with balls around here?
»
» I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff in my life, including some perscription
» and nonperscription drugs, and this one just doesn’t seem that scary in the
» big picture.

Every drug has some risk of side effects, more or less dangerous, but still the drugs are FDA approved and we all know that means 10 years of human testing. Since you are healthy and will not be using more than the recommended dose and for a very short period of time I think you are pretty safe.
And both cal and benji, I think it is fantastic what you are doing, in two month we will probably know if the Follica method works on humans!


#9

»
» Supposedly, my generic getfitinib is on the way Cal. Im probably going to
» try it orally for about five days post re-epilithialization after a TCA
» peel. I’ll also be on an anti-androgen and be taking arginine (mentioned in
» the first patent). I hope it gets here next week. Im ready to give it a
» shot and get it over with…

Dont you think that maybe five days is a bit long when you are doing “light” wounding? I think the 3-14 days post wounding is based on how deep the wounding is. For example, if you would surgicaly remove a piece of the skin the wound probably need about 14 days before the healing process has reached the “embryonic window” and for a chemical peel it probably will take just a few days. It would suck if you missed the window. If you are going to take the drugs for a few days at least you need to cover the window period and that is why I think you should start at day three to be sure to “hit” the window. Just my thoughts. Good luck!


#10

Well, it sounds like I’m definitely not “the only one with balls around here” in regards to oral EGF-R drugs.

Yeah, Folica’s demand is probably gonna include way too many people with risk factors not to do this topically.

As for the “embryonic window” -

Right now I’m thinking maybe I’ll just go whole-hog and do 300mg in 3 days. I’m gonna start the 100mg/day loading dose after maybe 2 days post-wounding. If it takes 3 days of that kind of high dose just to get the Leflunomide wound up to functioning levels, that would put it at day 5 in theory.

I’m not sure how bad it is to undershoot the starting time, but it definitely won’t work to overshoot it. And if the Arava standard procedure (at least until they changed their minds about it) was saying take 300mg in 3 days, then that first 100mg probably won’t be doing much at all during the third day post-wounding.

Any other suggestions/feedback, I’m listening.

Yes, I will be taking pictures of all this.


#11

» Any other suggestions/feedback, I’m listening.

I would talk to a doctor


#12

» Dont you think that maybe five days is a bit long when you are doing
» “light” wounding?

TCA peels are not “light wounding”. They destroy the epidermis. That takes a while to heal.

In my own little patch test with 30% TCA, it was nowhere close to being healed after a couple of days. It didn’t even start to peel for about 4 days (during the first 4 days or so, the area had a very deep red/brown blister-like appearance), and it took an additional 6 days or so for all of the layers of skin to peel off. The whole wound/healing process took about 10 days total.

If you use lower concentration TCA peels, the damage is lighter, and thus the healing time is shorter.

I am a little paranoid about missing the window myself, so I may start the meds a little sooner than planned, but I am still going to wait a while.


#13

?
»
» TCA peels are not “light wounding”. They destroy the epidermis. That takes
» a while to heal.
»
» In my own little patch test with 30% TCA, it was nowhere close to being
» healed after a couple of days. It didn’t even start to peel for about 4
» days (during the first 4 days or so, the area had a very deep red/brown
» blister-like appearance), and it took an additional 6 days or so for all of
» the layers of skin to peel off. The whole wound/healing process took about
» 10 days total.
»
» If you use lower concentration TCA peels, the damage is lighter, and thus
» the healing time is shorter.
»
» I am a little paranoid about missing the window myself, so I may start the
» meds a little sooner than planned, but I am still going to wait a while.

TAGOHL,
I have a 25% TCA. The directions are to leave it on for 3 minutes and rinse off with water.
Are you going to wait until you see full peeling, or are you going to go ahead and take the egf-antagonist at the first signs of peeling? Im inclined to go with doing it as soon as I see peeling myself. I too am afraid of “missing” the embyonic window.

Its my intention to use .5mgs of dutasteride during this time. I intend to do “some” plucking three days beforehand, but not a full depilation. I also plan on taking arginine and perhaps applying some minox foam around the treated area, but not directly on it (both behind it and on the forehead in front of it) in hopes that “some” of the minox gets there via circulation. I’ll also take some arginine.

I’ll also probably refrain from washing my hair for at least the first three days post wounding, and will probably just “water wash” it with merely warm purified water (no chlorine) afterwards until day ten or so…Im fully aware this may seem extremely cautious, but thats how I am + these drugs are pricey + removing the epidermis is something I dont want to do but once or twice.

BTW—Did the chemical peel “hurt”? The sandpaper wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be…


#14

I’d do sandpaper sooner than a chemical peel, for the same given depth of damage that’s being intended. That’s just me personally.

I would be concerned that waiting to see any certain sign on the wound might be too long. We’re aiming for a step in the cellular process. Anything we see on the outside is gonna be more of a superficial kind of evidence.


#15

» I have a 25% TCA. The directions are to leave it on for 3 minutes and
» rinse off with water.

The 25% will probably give you a slightly lighter peel (still strong, though). I rinsed after about 5 minutes. TCA is self-neutralizing when it contacts the skin, so a simple rinse is fine. With glycolic acid, in contrast, you have to neutralize the acid (with baking soda, for example). I still applied some baking soda after the TCA peel, because in a panic I thought I overdid it, but it’s not required. It may be a good idea to have some baking soda handy in case you accidently get the acid someplace you don’t want it, in which case you want to neutralize it quickly.

When you first apply it, your skin still looks normal. But then you’ll notice a ‘frost’ after about a minute or so, give or take. There’s three levels of frosting, IIRC. Level 1 frosting is a white coat with significant red showing through. Level 2 is a white coat with a little red showing through. Level 3 frosting is totally white. The level of frosting indicates how deep you went (and hence, how much damage you did), with level 3 being very deep. I believe you’re supposed to shoot for a level 1 or a level 2 frosting, depending on how deep you want the peel to go. The ‘red’ showing through is eyrthema (sp?). I ended up having a level 3 frosting because I applied a couple of coats before the frosting set in. Also, the frosting is a handy way of knowing whether or not you’ve missed some spots (and if you have, you apply to those spots).

» Are you going to wait until you see full peeling, or are you going
» to go ahead and take the egf-antagonist at the first signs of peeling?

» Im inclined to go with doing it as soon as I see peeling myself. I too am
» afraid of “missing” the embyonic window.

I am also afraid. Once again, the patent is slightly vague on this topic. In some spots, it mentions applying the compounds when “in a state” of re-epitheliaization, while other spots mention “after” re-epitheliaization. ‘In a state’ means, to me anyway, during re-epitheliaization. But it’s hard to tell what they really mean. Also, I’m not entirely sure when re-epitheliaization is complete after a TCA peel – is it after all the skin peeling is complete (a week or two, depending), or is it at the start of peeling, or sometime during it? I need to research peels, sunburns, burns, etc. a little more to find out exactly when re-epitheliaization occurs relative to peeling. If you have any thoughts on this or find anything, let me know.

» BTW—Did the chemical peel “hurt”?

Not so much hurt as a burning feeling. I have sensitive skin, so I felt the burn pretty good, but it’s not ‘painful’, I would say.

You are following the Follica protocol closer than I am, which is good.


#16

One more thing, the TCA seems to ‘spread’ a little when you apply it. I applied it with a Q-tip to a very small spot, but the diameter of the damage seemed a little larger than the area I applied it to. Just something to keep in my mind. The frosting will let you know exactly what areas have been damaged.


#17

Have we ever decided (whether there’s any/how much) harm we are looking at if we start the EGF-R inhibition too early?

I assume there’s a good reason not to have it there on at least day 1-3, but I’m not sure what it really is. Blockage of the skin repair from starting?

In my case oral Leflunomide is too much of a blunt instrument to judge by any outward signs.


#18

Thank you for the information. I suppose I’ll go for the red & white state before I rinse.

They noted new hair germs in human skin within seven days of abrasion, and claimed there was no blood on the mouse skin in initial abrasion experiments. Im kinda inclined, like Cal, to think we wont have to go too deep. Ive never seen a sunburn that brought blood…even though I have seen (and had) a blister in response to a sunburn.

When I watch dermabrasion videos on YouTube, they really dont look all that deep to me…http://youtube.com/watch?v=BRwNLsZujec&feature=related


#19

Good luck guys. My next attempt will be using tannic acid in a topical as an EGF inhibitor. At this stage, I’m not happy using those kind of drugs.

I won’t be trying this for a few weeks as it involves so much downtime (locked away watching DVD boxsets and supping beer) that I can’t do right now. Also, I want a little time to pass since my last wounding (which basically made my head look like Freddy Krueger :slight_smile: ). But it healed well and I’m coming up to Day 20 post wounding. I’m still hoping for a miracle here but I shave it to the bone every day for neatness so I won’t be seeing vellus/semi-terminal hairs. At the moment, I’m looking for large black dots signifying terminal hairs growing from follicles. I’ll keep you all updated.


#20

» Have we ever decided (whether there’s any/how much) harm we are looking at
» if we start the EGF-R inhibition too early?

I don’t know what would be the outcome of doing this. But after wounding, EGF is involved in reepithelialization, and over-expression of EGF accelerates reepithelialization and wound healing.

The patent makes frequent reference to the fact that wounding is done at least several days prior to the application of EGFR inhibitors. They are vague in the sense that they give quite a big range – a wait of about 3 days to 2 weeks after wounding. The patent also talks about reepithelialization in a fair amount of detail. Because of all the details in the patent concerning this topic, timing seems to be relavent in terms of when to apply the drugs. How relavent is the question you are asking, I think. I don’t know the answer.