ARI’s new hair should last, simply because it was sourced from androgen-resistant follicles in the donor area.
As for Histogen I don’t know. There’s probably nobody on earth who knows what happens to Histogen-boosted hairs after more than 1-2 years.
I don’t know enough about the Histogen method to even hazard much of a guess. I can’t imagine they would be lifetime androgen resistant simply because they are too heavily based off the existing balded skin in their locations. If they are indeed lasting, then I suspect it probably has more to do with having not been subjected to the assault of androgens that the original hairs got during puberty.
I have created/restarted a handful of follicles near my hairline with various abrasion-wounding experiments. After 1-2 years they have not all lasted but some of them have. The ones that have lasted still look quite thick.
If it changes the follicles GREAT! If they last for 5 years also great… If it cost 5k for a full head of hair including a great hairline, I’ll gladly pay that every year even though I think the hair lasts longer than that. Didn’t Naughton say she believed it it would last as long as your hair lasted before you started to lose hair? So for some people that has the potential to be decades worth of full heads of hair.
First things first, are the results compoundable with more injections and with a higher dose and if they are we have reason to take out the champagne bottles and party. Keep your head up.
-Eric
» ARI’s new hair should last, simply because it was sourced from
» androgen-resistant follicles in the donor area.
»
»
»
»
» As for Histogen I don’t know. There’s probably nobody on earth who knows
» what happens to Histogen-boosted hairs after more than 1-2 years.
»
» I don’t know enough about the Histogen method to even hazard much of a
» guess. I can’t imagine they would be lifetime androgen resistant simply
» because they are too heavily based off the existing balded skin in their
» locations. If they are indeed lasting, then I suspect it probably has more
» to do with having not been subjected to the assault of androgens that the
» original hairs got during puberty.
»
»
»
»
»
» I have created/restarted a handful of follicles near my hairline with
» various abrasion-wounding experiments. After 1-2 years they have not all
» lasted but some of them have. The ones that have lasted still look quite
» thick.
»
»
» .
» if you look at subject S1006 you will see the hair count has DECREASED
» from the 12 week count to the 1 year.
»
» Possible effects of DHT
Yes, S1006 has not been a good responder. Also note that the control area gained 9%.
I don’t know if the control area is a very reliable control, because is so close to the treated area that could be influenced somehow.
still we cannot conclude that the decrease from 246 to 242 is due to DHT, because the difference is so small…
If Histogen makes hair that “lasts as long as the original hair did there” it could create some interesting situations.
In my case the majority of the hair on my head would be pretty easy to keep. But my NW#1 hairline was racing back towards a NW#2.5 when I was barely out of puberty. I don’t think I even made it to my 16th birthday with the full NW#1 intact.
I really wanna get off ALL hair loss medication regimens for the long haul. If Histogen can’t keep the hairs in my NW#1-2 area any longer than they originally lasted, I might just say “F-ck it” and get that area FUE transplanted. I would have no shortage of donor hair for the job and the prices for good FUE work would be tanking by then.
For 5k a year I’d still pay it (provided it worked), but this is just an injection, not a surgery or anything close to the complexity of a HT.
I could see it costing like $500-$1000/session. Cost would come down over time obviously as well. The issue now is to see if this actually works on a bigger scale and whether or not its compoundable.
That’s far more important than the cost at this point.
I hope they start their trials soon, they were supposed to start this fall, but I guess that’s been moved until early next year?
» For 5k a year I’d still pay it (provided it worked), but this is just an
» injection, not a surgery or anything close to the complexity of a HT.
»
» I could see it costing like $500-$1000/session. Cost would come down over
» time obviously as well. The issue now is to see if this actually works on a
» bigger scale and whether or not its compoundable.
»
» That’s far more important than the cost at this point.
»
» I hope they start their trials soon, they were supposed to start this
» fall, but I guess that’s been moved until early next year?
1st off i dont want to be a kill joy but i think we are getting slightly carried away here. I said the same thing when there was mass hysteria when people though it definitely wasnt going to work and now its like its a cure for certain. I am cautiously optimistic that histogen will provide a reasonable treatment. Its just some members of This forum will be jumping off bridges if we dont get exactly what we hoped for. lets just be open minded for either outcome. If all were to goperfectly then the question of dht resistant hairs is a difficult one. People say it took x amount of years to lose your hair in the 1st place so its not all bad. I would argue though that your body was not producing the dht levels necessary to cause MPB. However your body is now creating dht to these levels so it could start to effect the hair straight away. On the plus side the hairs were still thickening at 12 months so this is a good sign.
» 5000 or 10000 dollars PER YEAR is a HUGE price and for only very rich
» men… I don’t expect a price like that, this is unmarketable
»
» just to understand, histogein is going to start in the next spring the
» phase 3? or I’m wrong?
That’s something I always think as well, why would you price a large percentage of potential customers out of a treatment that could be followed very quickly by other companies like Aderans and Follica? it just doesn’t make sense to me, I would be trying to get as many people as possible to buy it straight away, and to do that these companies are going to have to be realistic with their pricing, the majority of people can’t afford to spend as much on a hair treatment as they would on a car.
» That’s something I always think as well, why would you price a large
» percentage of potential customers out of a treatment that could be followed
» very quickly by other companies like Aderans and Follica? it just doesn’t
» make sense to me, I would be trying to get as many people as possible to
» buy it straight away, and to do that these companies are going to have to
» be realistic with their pricing, the majority of people can’t afford to
» spend as much on a hair treatment as they would on a car.
every year in addition… just ONE time I think many people would spend that money, but if need to be repeated obviously NOT
Lets say you live 10 years after Histogen is on the asia market in 2013 or so, then you have to pay 50.000 dollars, i bet nobody of us would wanna pay 5000 dollars every year for the rest of our lifes. If that was the case i would definitely do the GHO thing cause this would be an equal price tag i guess.
If i have to pay 5000 dollar every 5 years i think i could, could live wth that but i think its not the final solution.
And the decrease of this patient, well to less hairs to actually tag them to dht, my guess is, those hairs fell out just before due to cycling.
But at least it showed us that Histogen is actually pretty trustworthy, they dont make secrets about those things
Time to bash Gail for beeing so honest to us, not
» » That’s something I always think as well, why would you price a large
» » percentage of potential customers out of a treatment that could be
» followed
» » very quickly by other companies like Aderans and Follica? it just
» doesn’t
» » make sense to me, I would be trying to get as many people as possible
» to
» » buy it straight away, and to do that these companies are going to have
» to
» » be realistic with their pricing, the majority of people can’t afford to
» » spend as much on a hair treatment as they would on a car.
»
» every year in addition… just ONE time I think many people would spend
» that money, but if need to be repeated obviously NOT
They’ll sell this stuff as cheaply as they can do it and still make the slightest profit per person. The volume of the market is virtually unlimited when the price is low enough.
Just going by the population averages there would probably be 1-2 billion balding people in the world. It only takes a small percentage of them to make a cheap & effective regrowth product successful.
» » personally, i have strong doubts as to DHT resistance of the
» rejuvenated
» » follicles. I see can think of no reasonable explanation as to why this
» » would occur… yet perhaps i am wrong.
» »
» » furthermore the “botox” solution would be fine as long as the treatment
» is
» » available for far less than USD 5.000. Paying 10.000 USD per year would
» not
» » result in an affordable solution for most.
Could be it’s resetting some kind of “clock” within the follicle, making it revert to its original state.
Then after cycling a fixed number of times again, it will cease to grow terminal hairs.
But it could take decades to reach that point again, as it took decades for the follicle to reach that point originally.
On the other hand, the Histogen regrowth might last for only one cycle.
As for continually topping up, the “Botox” solution–one can only hope this might be the worst case scenario.
The darker side might be that histogen is the equivalent of pounding the bottom of the ketchup bottle to get the last drop out of it.
We are dealing with the same old problem we’ve had with most of the HM researchers. Nobody ever wants to do the research it takes to actually understand the follicle, they all just want to rush out a product. I also think there might possibly be a fixed number of cycles that each follicle will produce. It’s idiotic that a basic question like this has still not been answered in 2010.
We will probably not know any very firm answers for years after Histogen releases a product. I doubt any serious effort will be put into these questions unless the complaints of frustrated customers begin to add up.
» I’ve had those thoughts too.
»
»
» We are dealing with the same old problem we’ve had with most of the HM
» researchers. Nobody ever wants to do the research it takes to actually
» understand the follicle, they all just want to rush out a product. I also
» think there might possibly be a fixed number of cycles that each follicle
» will produce. It’s idiotic that a basic question like this has still not
» been answered in 2010.
»
»
» We will probably not know any very firm answers for years after Histogen
» releases a product. I doubt any serious effort will be put into these
» questions unless the complaints of frustrated customers begin to add up.
answering this question with certainty would take a life time of research… i dont think any of us are willing to wait a life-time to have this “simple” question answered.
So far nobody is even trying a lot of this stuff, that’s what really frustrates me.
Take the questions about fixed numbers of cycles - why the hell isn’t that answered in 2010? Scientists were studying hair follicles generations ago and this is easily testable with very basic means.
Yes, Ahab, your clock theory fits like a glove in Histogen’s theory.
Histogen suppossedly reverts the skin to embrionary state, and thus the follicle clock should be reset to zero.
I hope it is not just the ketchup at the bottom of the bottle.
I wonder if Histogen can apply the same principle to the whole skin, and thus, revert our “already-not-so-young-skin” into teenage skin, or baby skin?
» Could be it’s resetting some kind of “clock” within the follicle, making
» it revert to its original state.
»
» Then after cycling a fixed number of times again, it will cease to grow
» terminal hairs.
»
» But it could take decades to reach that point again, as it took decades
» for the follicle to reach that point originally.
»
» On the other hand, the Histogen regrowth might last for only one cycle.
»
» As for continually topping up, the “Botox” solution–one can only hope
» this might be the worst case scenario.
»
» The darker side might be that histogen is the equivalent of pounding the
» bottom of the ketchup bottle to get the last drop out of it.
» Yes, Ahab, your clock theory fits like a glove in Histogen’s theory.
» Histogen suppossedly reverts the skin to embrionary state, and thus the
» follicle clock should be reset to zero.
» I hope it is not just the ketchup at the bottom of the bottle.
»
» I wonder if Histogen can apply the same principle to the whole skin, and
» thus, revert our “already-not-so-young-skin” into teenage skin, or baby
» skin?
»
» Yeah-Just think of the market for that! Women would spend $$$ for something that REALLY brought back younger skin.
»
» » Could be it’s resetting some kind of “clock” within the follicle,
» making
» » it revert to its original state.
» »
» » Then after cycling a fixed number of times again, it will cease to grow
» » terminal hairs.
» »
» » But it could take decades to reach that point again, as it took decades
» » for the follicle to reach that point originally.
» »
» » On the other hand, the Histogen regrowth might last for only one cycle.
» »
» » As for continually topping up, the “Botox” solution–one can only hope
» » this might be the worst case scenario.
» »
» » The darker side might be that histogen is the equivalent of pounding
» the
» » bottom of the ketchup bottle to get the last drop out of it.
» » Yes, Ahab, your clock theory fits like a glove in Histogen’s theory.
» » Histogen suppossedly reverts the skin to embrionary state, and thus the
» » follicle clock should be reset to zero.
» » I hope it is not just the ketchup at the bottom of the bottle.
» »
» » I wonder if Histogen can apply the same principle to the whole skin,
» and
» » thus, revert our “already-not-so-young-skin” into teenage skin, or baby
» » skin?
» »
» » Yeah-Just think of the market for that! Women would spend $$$ for
» something that REALLY brought back younger skin.
» »
» » » Could be it’s resetting some kind of “clock” within the follicle,
» » making
» » » it revert to its original state.
» » »
» » » Then after cycling a fixed number of times again, it will cease to
» grow
» » » terminal hairs.
» » »
» » » But it could take decades to reach that point again, as it took
» decades
» » » for the follicle to reach that point originally.
» » »
» » » On the other hand, the Histogen regrowth might last for only one
» cycle.
» » »
» » » As for continually topping up, the “Botox” solution–one can only
» hope
» » » this might be the worst case scenario.
» » »
» » » The darker side might be that histogen is the equivalent of pounding
» » the
» » » bottom of the ketchup bottle to get the last drop out of it.
If its a case that it does have a number of cycles thats fine with me. it 24 yrs worth of cycling befote i started to go bald so i’ll gladly take that again. Also i’m not entirely sure about this theory as how would the benefit propecia has for some cases be explained, what would the mechanism be?
» If its a case that it does have a number of cycles thats fine with me. it
» 24 yrs worth of cycling befote i started to go bald so i’ll gladly take
» that again. Also i’m not entirely sure about this theory as how would the
» benefit propecia has for some cases be explained, what would the mechanism
» be?
yes, it seems the number of available cycles depends on the DHT, and other factors, so this theory is not so simple after all.
Still, if your hair resisted DHT for 10 years (for example, from 15 to 25), we would expect another 10 years of cycling after clock resetting.
@AZGUY:
not only women want young skin. But its true that women would be ready to pay more
I don’t think you guys are quite getting the point that Ahab was making with the ketchup bottle analogy. He was suggesting that we might all have limited cycles from birth and Histogen’s treatment might not add any more onto that number. This would be a BIG PROBLEM. (It would also explain why plucking your hairs repeatedly will eventually thin and kill them.)
If you get 30 cycles from birth, you never get MPB, and each cycle grows 3-6 years, you’ll never run out. But the problem is that male pattern baldness progressively shortens the cycles as the condition gets worse. By the end of the process the hair is cycling very short intervals before quitting entirely and going vellus/slick.
Theoretically Histogen might wake up the follicle and get it cycling again, but the follicle’s supply of future cycles would not be added back. It would have already used up so many of its alotted lifetime cycles during its MPB illness that it can only work for a few more years (or decades) before it runs out of cycles and the follicle shuts down permanently. MPB wins yet again.
I don’t know what the odds of this are. The fact that Histogen would be working through the WNT signalling process (and may also be creating all-new follicles) is a good sign. That kind of rejuvenation should reset things.
One possible tip-off would be if the hairs that Histogen revives are found to be going gray much earlier than the others. I think the graying process involves the same kind of of “fixed number of cycles” situation and then the pigment gets shut down.
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