Hair transplant: body hair history

» Firstly, I said that ANGLE OF OBSERVATION is critical. So is density if
» implantation, position of placement, and the type of hair used.
»
» Second, the whole hair cycle thing is an interesting academic irrelevent
» sideshow, distracting from the REAL REASONS why body hair doesn’t
» grow…and often those reasons are the fault of the clinic.
»
» Third, dense packing is a specialist microsurgical procedure. Take your
» chances where patients are packed like sardines in a hair mill, if you
» wish
»
» finally, I am watching the 2nd Test India vs Australia at the Sydney
» Cricket ground. Great stuff, so please no one bother me for now…is
» nothing sacred??
»
» Dr Ray Woods

Dr. Woods,

What do you think is the real reason why body hair doesn’t grow? What do you think of using beard hair to fix strip scar?

» good post BTW Dr. Woods

body hair is over hyped and over rated

» » good post BTW Dr. Woods
»
» body hair is over hyped and over rated

Everything is over hyped and overrated according to you. I think body hair is very promising if you use it properly. Nobody says it is the same as head hair.

» » » good post BTW Dr. Woods
» »
» » body hair is over hyped and over rated
»
» Everything is over hyped and overrated according to you. I think body
» hair is very promising if you use it properly. Nobody says it is the same
» as head hair.

for the growth that has been coming out of body hair, and considering they charge the same for it as head hair and you need three times as much to get a scanty result, I would say body hair overall has been a failure and it is over hyped

yes a lot of people at first thought it would grow the same as head hair, grow as long as the surrounding hair, and if you got it from a good area on the body, would be just as good as head hair

then when the results starting coming out like crap, they wanted to say, oh its the hair cycles, just give it time etc etc, now some of the docs admit that body hair is not what it was hoped to be or what people thought it was when they first started with it

Yes a lot of people DID say that body hair was the savior for running out of scalp donor. I have seen tons of guys on the board share that view…and then you get guys like Heliboy, who undoubtedly got a great result, you have guys saying, just look at Heliboy…yes but he is one in 100 as far as percentages of success

»
» The density is largely due to length, and angle of observation.
»
» The thing with chest and abdominal hair is that it is observed from a dead
» on angle most of the time, and the hair sits very flat against the skin.
»

Dr. Woods you misunderstood my question.
When the hair go to the top of the head - recipient area - thatys what I was talking about.

Do you mean that body hair can be transplanted at correct angles, and higher density, on the scalp and it will look the way it looks on the chest?

Why?

» Dr. Woods you misunderstood my question.
» When the hair go to the top of the head - recipient area - thatys what I
» was talking about.
»
» Do you mean that body hair can be transplanted at correct angles, and
» higher density, on the scalp and it will look the way it looks on the
» chest?
»
» Why?

I think once body hair is taken out of its home environment, it will lose some of its original characteristics. So to answer your question, it will not look the way it looks on the chest even if all the angles are correct and if you pack it densely. Just my opinions.

» Third, dense packing is a specialist microsurgical procedure. Take your
» chances where patients are packed like sardines in a hair mill, if you
» wish
»

Dr. Woods what is considered as dense packing? 50, 60, 70, 80 grafts per cm2 ?
Is 40-50 grafts per cm2 the average most people get ?

» » Third, dense packing is a specialist microsurgical procedure. Take your
» » chances where patients are packed like sardines in a hair mill, if you
» » wish
» »
»
» Dr. Woods what is considered as dense packing? 50, 60, 70, 80 grafts per
» cm2 ?
» Is 40-50 grafts per cm2 the average most people get ?

I might be wrong, but I think anything above 60-70 is considered dense packing. Also, it depends on the patient’s hair characteristics too. People with coarse thick hair obviously will not need as many grafts to dense pack an area.


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I always said that Donor hair is to be the first choice due to its superior length characteristics and generally greater numbers of bulbs per follicular unit i.e. more doubles and triplets etc.

I always said that body hair was to be used when there is not enough donor, and when greater coverage and density is required.

And that no one will examine body hair on the scalp and pick it to be different, apart from length. But pubic and armpit hair should not be used for reasons explained many times.

And the “what you see is what you will get” principle means that , for example, short, weak flimsy leg hair will give a similarly weak and flimsy result on the head. And length increase is proportional to the original length.

And I have repeated many times that BODY HAIR, used correctly is a godsend. It is a brilliant resource.

But FsUE takes many years to master and then only if the doctor has the necessary skill and attitude.

Few really want to practise for years to become competent, whilst earning very little.
It is easier to jump in, claim huge numbers were successfully transplanted, and rely on the line that it may take 12 to 18 months to see results. That buys time and allows the doctor to relentlessly pound the forums with thousands of meaningless photos to create confusion and a sense of being an expert.

But what does happen is donor sites are wiped out and many patients are left with an immediate and obvious problem, due to incompetence and high transection rates.

Enter body hair. When you wipe out the donor , you have a very unhappy patient.
BUT, if you wipe out the leg hair etc, most patients don’t really care.
And who remembers what was being presented on the forums 18 months ago ??
Failures are swept up in the general hype and propaganda blitz , and in 18 months, mostly forgotten and lost in the mix of confusing information and carefully selected results.

I raised the alarm many times and wound up being attacked by a call centre of shills.

So hanginthere is right . Body hair has been over used and abused in order to gain publicity by incompetent operators and hair mills who want to avoid immediate and obvious donor disasters which would be bad publicity.
Body hair numbers have been hugely over estimated, and much of what is transplanted may be transected and useless. The other glaringly obvious trick is to shave pre existing hair for the before shot, then claim credit when it grows out, as though it was transplanted

And in general and in my experience, properly chosen, extracted and implanted body hair will show growth in approximately the same time as donor, occasionally a few months longer.
So apart from creating excuses and buying more time, I find the hair cycle argument irrelevant in the real world.
JohnP answered Arun. Thankyou.

Can you use body hair first line in thinning temples etc ? Well, if the body hair has the appropriate and excellent characteristis, and if the patient is well informed and insists, then , yes.
How many do you pack into any given area ? There are so many variables that I would rather be asked how long is a piece of string (…42.5 cm, I think).

Dr Ray Woods

“for the growth that has been coming out of body hair, and considering they charge the same for it as head hair and you need three times as much to get a scanty result, I would say body hair overall has been a failure and it is over hyped” Good post

» And in general and in my experience, properly chosen, extracted and
» implanted body hair will show growth in approximately the same time as
» donor, occasionally a few months longer.
» So apart from creating excuses and buying more time, I find the hair cycle
» argument irrelevant in the real world.
» JohnP answered Arun. Thankyou.
»

On several occasions I have shaved a small area of body hair to see the pattern of growth. Some areas of the body seem to take up to four months before the shaved area reaches the original and surrounding density and little of the hair grows immediately. On the other hand a shaved scalp reaches its original density almost immediately and most of the hair grows immediately. It is no secret that the telogen phase of body hair is longer and more of the hair is in this phase. It is also interesting that if the majority of body hair is removed by BHT then it seems that the density of that area returns to a greater extent than would seem expected. The only explanation for this phenomenon is that a proportion of the body hair follicles are empty at a given time and thus the density of follicles is higher than the density of hair. This has been given a definition in the literature of kinogen.

You experience that all this has little or so impact on the initial growth patterns is surprising and at odds with several other surgeons who have a good track record in the area.

» » And in general and in my experience, properly chosen, extracted and
» » implanted body hair will show growth in approximately the same time as
» » donor, occasionally a few months longer.
» » So apart from creating excuses and buying more time, I find the hair
» cycle
» » argument irrelevant in the real world.
» » JohnP answered Arun. Thankyou.
» »
»
»
» On several occasions I have shaved a small area of body hair to see the
» pattern of growth. Some areas of the body seem to take up to four months
» before the shaved area reaches the original and surrounding density and
» little of the hair grows immediately. On the other hand a shaved scalp
» reaches its original density almost immediately and most of the hair grows
» immediately. It is no secret that the telogen phase of body hair is longer
» and more of the hair is in this phase. It is also interesting that if the
» majority of body hair is removed by BHT then it seems that the density of
» that area returns to a greater extent than would seem expected. The only
» explanation for this phenomenon is that a proportion of the body hair
» follicles are empty at a given time and thus the density of follicles is
» higher than the density of hair. This has been given a definition in the
» literature of kinogen.
»
» You experience that all this has little or so impact on the initial growth
» patterns is surprising and at odds with several other surgeons who have a
» good track record in the area.

If the reason a lot of the bht guys get poor growth is because of the hair cycle, then we should expect to see a lot of guys saying they got great results after 2,3 years. Where are these people?

»
» If the reason a lot of the bht guys get poor growth is because of the hair
» cycle, then we should expect to see a lot of guys saying they got great
» results after 2,3 years. Where are these people?

No! That logic does not add up. First, it is possible that a larger proportion of transplanted body hair is not only in telogen but it may also be that a proportion of the follicles are actually empty for a larger part of the cycle. Secondly, the point that several surgeons have made is that the re-instatement rate of body hair is not the same as scalp but that THE TWO OR THREE YEAR THEORY IS JUST PULLED OUT OF A HAT. third, the reason that body hair may be problematic is that the technique is poor or / and that the follicles are too fragile for some techniques or that it just grows unpredictably.

The only point of my comments is that it is utterly naive to suggest that the major difference in growth cycles has virtually no impact on regrowth.

The best counter argument to my views is the empirical truth. Dr. Woods has that but… so do other surgeons that disagree with him.

» The only point of my comments is that it is utterly naive to suggest that
» the major difference in growth cycles has virtually no impact on
» regrowth.

Even if hair cycle does have an impact on regrowth, shouldn’t that be nothing more than a timing issue? Sooner or later we should all expect to see the same regrowth, well that’s not the case in reality.

Occassionally a percentage of donor AND body hair grows immediately. No shedding.

If it does shed, donor is expected to regrow in 3 to 6 months. Sometimes longer.

Body hair will regrow generally in the 3 to 9 month timeframe, sometimes longer.

Both donor and body hair regrowth can be extremely variable from patient to patient.

But overall, the hair cycle argument is overstated.

Dr Ray Woods

wolfhair
Regular Poster

Posts: 70
Joined: Mar 2003
Thursday December 27, 2007 6:38 AM

We have transplanted back, chest, shoulder, and thigh hair. The results, like others, have been marginal. If the hair on the body looks really hairy, thick and curly, it can have an effect when transplanted to the scalp.

The problems are: most grafts are one hair, fewer grafts are moved in a session due to higher degree of difficulty, the cost is higher for less density, and it takes longer for growth and total density to be seen, up to two years.

Dr. Wolf would only recommend it if the scalp donor has been depleted and the body hair is used for fill in, in a non-critical area like the crown as opposed to the hairline. If the hairs on the body look really thick and curly they are probably of higher diameter and have higher number of multiple hair grafts. The thicker they appear on the body with less contrast with skin color, the thicker they will look in the area transplanted.

Dr. Wolf transplanted thigh hair into greater than 1 mm diameter FUE scars on the scalp and the results were very thin. The patient could wear his hair a little shorter in the area and with magnification the transplanted leg hairs could be seen growing but they were thin and all one hair grafts. We’ve had a similar experience with chest and back hair to the crown. Upon close inspection a lot of hairs are growing but they are almost all one hair grafts and low diameter.

Dr. Wolf does not recommend transplanting hair taken from below the knee as this area can lose hair with age. There is such minimal chance for increasing density with this hair in the first place; he wouldn’t recommend transplanting it if there is any chance it will fall out in the future.

Seems to be sharing a lot of Dr. Woods opinion on this one.

In 2002/3 , we held a seminar for patients and doctors in NYC, and body hair was a hot topic.
Timetested was there and another patient showing great body hair results. ( BUT, their donor body hair was very high quality, long and coarse, and I STRESSED THAT)

In the course of this, a guy who had been literally butchered by some of the best in the business asked me for help. He had little to no usable donor, a few hundred medium quality chest hair.

I formulated a plan to help him. But he had his own ideas.

He showed me his leg and thigh hair and calculated that he had several thousand.

I told him upfront, that ONE, those hair are prone to incredibly high transection rates, and TWO, they are short and frail, and the result on the head would be negligible, even with a zero transection rate.

He was upset, and probably felt that other doctors would succeed. And he did go elsewhere .

All of this happened in the presence of HAIRSITE, TIMETESTED, and other witnesses .

Since then I have made many many posts about the “what you see is what you get” principle.

I was slammed , attacked and accused of having an “inferior” technique by some doctors and their shills. Insults and smug sarcastic posts were designed to stop me from interfering with their body hair bandwagon
It seems they did not want me to “share” my knowledge and experience. It wasn’t convenient information.

But other doctors did listen, even if they still had to see for themselves.

And back to hair cycles.

By 12 months, the vast majority of patients would have the vast majority of their transplanted hair , donor or bodyhair, already well and truly sprouted

Only an extremely small percentage, and only in special circumstances, would one need to wait 2 years.

A poll can be conducted here.

How many patients had little to no growth of body hair at 12 months, then suddenly had it come through at or near 24 months ??

Dr Ray Woods

Interesting. No reply.

As stated well over 90% of all patients will have had their final result, body or donor hair, through by 12 months and usually earlier.

Body hair is prone to large transection rates, it will not grow as long and the follicular groupings are usually less. And because patients don’t really notice or care as much about it, massive wastage can occur in reckless megasessions. Only later, when it is gone, will patients realise their last chance was squandered

But if chosen , removed and implanted correctly, it is still an invaluable resourse and often can create very good density, impressive hairlines and surprising length.

Body Hair has made what was previously thought impossible, possible.

Dr Ray Woods

» Interesting. No reply.
»

Amazing! :slight_smile:
You have started talking to yourself and expect someone to get into an argument with you.
I have stated what I wished to. You have made your statement. Now go and rest. Its not necessary to keep picking brawls to stay in the limelight.
Let the results speak for themselves.

Some of our BHT results are posted at the following links, if you have not had time to see them

http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard-az-show_topic-forum-12-topic_id-30179-mode-full-page-6.html

http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=12&topic_id=30179&mode=full&page=

http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=12&topic_id=48309&mode=full&page=

http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=12&topic_id=52071&mode=full&page=

http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-16629.html

http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/board_entry-id-16834.html

Regards,
Dr. A

Interesting thread. I remember meeting Doctor Wolf at one of Dr. Woods Seminars. And it was good to see that he now does some Fue BHT. He is a top notch in my opinion strip surgeon here in the U.S. This quote sticks out here "Dr. Wolf transplanted thigh hair into greater than 1 mm diameter FUE scars on the scalp and the results were very thin. The patient could wear his hair a little shorter in the area and with magnification the transplanted leg hairs could be seen growing but they were thin and all one hair grafts. We’ve had a similar experience with chest and back hair to the crown. Upon close inspection a lot of hairs are growing but they are almost all one hair grafts and low diameter.

Dr. Wolf does not recommend transplanting hair taken from below the knee as this area can lose hair with age. There is such minimal chance for increasing density with this hair in the first place; he wouldn’t recommend transplanting it if there is any chance it will fall out in the future." So looks like he did get it to grow but the hairs are very thin . So is it really worth it?