Hair raising breakthrough in genetic engineering

Stem cell; cell based hair therapy
41

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Lindo[/postedby]
Yeah it’s the first time ever so great caution will be needed. The first time they started a clinical trial with stem cells (non iPS) they did the same thing, only very few patients were selected and they kept months between injecting each patient.

[postedby]Originally Posted by licht[/postedby]

I guess the question is, how long after the first cautious clinical studies for non iPS stem cells was it before they started allowing trials for problems considered non-threatening to your health, or “cosmetic”?

It’s great news they’re starting using iPS stem cells but it seems like they are being awfully methodical cautious here.

Anyway, obviously, I hope you’re right, and they start sooner, rather than later. Have the Tokyo Team started testing with iPS cells in animal models, or is this just a possibility for a source of the cells?

As for the estimates given by the scientists themselves for when they might start trials, I really don’t put all that much stock in that. I know they mean well, but scientists seem to consistently low-ball them, often significantly.[/quote]

They said they were looking into iPS as a source but that’s all that’s currently known. And yes I agree, scientists generally do lowball trial start dates. But I’d rather listen to that then to that ‘it’s a perpetual thing without an end’ kind of negativism that you suddenly see a lot here.

42

[quote]
[postedby]Originally Posted by Lindo[/postedby]

They said they were looking into iPS as a source but that’s all that’s currently known. And yes I agree, scientists generally do lowball trial start dates. But I’d rather listen to that then to that ‘it’s a perpetual thing without an end’ kind of negativism that you suddenly see a lot here.[/quote]

Are these Tokyo guys at all accessible? Maybe we can find out more about what the actual status is of there research now directly from them.

Agreed about the negativity. It’s just venting with no real purpose. I personally don’t want either negativity or positivity. I just want a clear, real idea of what the current situation is.

My feeling on the Tokyo team is that they are probably many years from clinical trials, from the little I’ve read recently, but I’m not really sure. I do hope I’m wrong.

43

[quote]
[postedby]Originally Posted by Lindo[/postedby]

They said they were looking into iPS as a source but that’s all that’s currently known. And yes I agree, scientists generally do lowball trial start dates. But I’d rather listen to that then to that ‘it’s a perpetual thing without an end’ kind of negativism that you suddenly see a lot here.

[postedby]Originally Posted by licht[/postedby]

Are these Tokyo guys at all accessible? Maybe we can find out more about what the actual status is of there research now directly from them.

Agreed about the negativity. It’s just venting with no real purpose. I personally don’t want either negativity or positivity. I just want a clear, real idea of what the current situation is.

My feeling on the Tokyo team is that they are probably many years from clinical trials, from the little I’ve read recently, but I’m not really sure. I do hope I’m wrong.[/quote]

I just re-read Tsuji’s paper ( http://www.tsuji-lab.com/en/pdf/Toyoshima_et_al.ncomms1784.pdf ) and now understand better what they did, cause there’s quite a bit confusion here on this forum: did they grow human hair or not ? The answer is that they actually did 3 experiments.

  1. Grow ‘pelage’ mouse hair. This is the normal fur. They created it from combining mice stem cells.
  2. Grow ‘vibrissa’ mouse hair Whiskers - Wikipedia . They also created this from combining mice stem cells
  3. Grow human hair (on a mouse). This was done taking intact human DP cells + epethelial cells from human donors. This resulted in the growth of human hair follicles, producing human hair (“By analysing the nuclear morphology with Hoechst staining, we confirmed that the cells in the bioengineered hair follicle were of human origin” )

The interesting thing is that those human hairs demonstrated the same intrinsic characterics as the donor (same colour, thickness etc). Again, the reason why this was NOT the case with Jahoda’s experiment is because he cultured the DP cells, causing them to lose 78% of the gene expressions. The 22% left was enough to retain follicle inducing ability but not enough to retain hair colour etc. Tsuji on the other hand just took existing DP cells.

So, in other words, if Tsuji lab can induce iPS cells to become DP cells, then we’re there ! Of course this might be quite a hurdle to take. But interestingly DP cells are currently being used as a source for iPS cells:

Single transcription factor reprogramming of hair follicle dermal papilla cells to induced pluripotent stem cells - PubMed →

“Here, we exploit that dermal papilla (DP) cells from hair follicles in the skin express all but one reprogramming factors to show that these accessible cells can be reprogrammed into iPS cells with the single transcription factor Oct4 and without further manipulation”

So again, there are 2 possible venues to get to our goal:

  1. optimize the DP culturing process to increase gene expression (the ‘jahoda’ way) or
  2. Induce iPS cells to become DP cells (which is what Tsuji is looking at).

Anyway, that’s where we currently stand. If any of those 2 can be solved than hairloss is a thing of the past. The only hurdle left really is just getting those damn DP cells (either via culture or induction)

44

Thanks for all the information. It’s very helpful, and I think I understand what they were doing better.

Aside from the fact that Jahoda was culturing the DP cells, and Tsuji not, were there any other major differences between what they were doing in the third experiment?

If Jahoda did what he did, but without culturing the DP cells first, would he have grown hair similarly to Tsuji?

45

Picture this hypothetical HM statement in a press article:

“We’re optimistic that we can overcome certain gene expression problems with hair follicle cell culturing well enough to raise funding and start clinical trials.”

If this was coming from one of the known commercial HM research teams that are currently struggling against the ropes, we would interpret it to be nothing but bullsh*t.

We would groan and say, “Oh great, that translates to mean 10 years minimum. And there’s no really compelling reason to think it will even be that soon. Right now they aren’t even close to clinical, let alone close to a commercial product. This is a long way off if it ever pans out. It’s more of an idea than a work in progress.”

Am I being too hard on Jahoda & friends? Maybe.

But I do think this is how we would interpret the same description of the situation if it was coming from a source with money staked on it. I’m just saying think about it before you get too excited here.

46

Again, jahoda’s culturing method is just one venue. Tsuji’s is another venue. Nobody can claim with certainty when an event will happen. All I’m saying is that we’re currently in a position where the last step only is to get DP cells. After that hairloss will be a thing of the past. When will it happen ? I don’t know. Could happen next year. Could happen in 20 years. All I know is that currently pretty much every scientist in the field is optimistic that it will happen in the near future, which is quite different from the prevailing opinions here on the forums.

47

Lindo, I’m still unclear about what you said regarding Tsuji’s study. You said he used a mix culture of human cells and mouse cells? Why would he do that?

48

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]
Lindo, I’m still unclear about what you said regarding Tsuji’s study. You said he used a mix culture of human cells and mouse cells? Why would he do that?[/quote]

No. They did 3 experiments which they documented in that paper. Two were using mice stem cells. The other using human DP cells and human epethelial cells. That last experiment grew hair that was confirmed to be human (and matched the donor in terms of intrinsic hair properties like color and thickness).

49

OK, thanks.

Then wasn’t the last part of the Tsuji study, with the human cells, exactly the same as the 2013 Jahoda/Christiano study, in terms of method and outcome?

In fact, it may have been an even more impressive result, if the hairs were exactly like the donor hairs in appearance, size, etc.

50

[quote]No. They did 3 experiments which they documented in that paper. Two were using mice stem cells. The other using human DP cells and human epethelial cells. That last experiment grew hair that was confirmed to be human (and matched the donor in terms of intrinsic hair properties like color and thickness).

[postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]

OK, thanks.

Then wasn’t the last part of the Tsuji study, with the human cells, exactly the same as the 2013 Jahoda/Christiano study, in terms of method and outcome?

In fact, it may have been an even more impressive result, if the hairs were exactly like the donor hairs in appearance, size, etc.[/quote]

Well Jahoda’s study was impressive cause he was the first one to culture DP cells that kept their follicle inducing capability. Tsuji just extracted existing DP cells from human donors.

So, again, the only thing that stands between us and a cure are those DP cells. Tsuji already proved that DP cells regulate all intrinsic hair properties like color and thickness. The hair they grew was exactly like the donor’s hair, same colour, thickness etc. The only reason that was not the case for Jahoda was that he cultured those DP cells, causing them to lose 78% of the gene expression, including the hair color etc.

So, once they figure out a way to either improve the DP culture process so that more genes remain expressed OR find a way to induce iPS cells to become DP cells, then our problems are history. It’s really the last step, the only thing left that stands between us and unlimited hair :slight_smile: That’s why Washenik concluded his thesis with: “Recent developments in the field of regenerative medicine indicate that a cell-based solution for alopecia is coming soon.”

51

Ironic! Washenik is in some sense like our Moses. He saw the way to the Promised Land, but couldn’t get there.

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[quote] That’s why Washenik concluded his thesis with: “Recent developments in the field of regenerative medicine indicate that a cell-based solution for alopecia is coming soon.”

[postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]

Ironic! Washenik is in some sense like our Moses. He saw the way to the Promised Land, but couldn’t get there.[/quote]

Hehe yep :slight_smile: But I doubt they’re sitting still too at Aderans. Everybody gave up on them but you bet that every researcher out there is now focusing on that last step and trying to improve the DP culture process. So don’t give up on him just yet :wink:

53

Yes, and after the cell based solution is discovered it will take 5 - 10 more years for that solution to get into the marketplace which is why we should stop attacking mavericks like Dr. Nigam who can bypass all of the regulatory poo.

[quote]No. They did 3 experiments which they documented in that paper. Two were using mice stem cells. The other using human DP cells and human epethelial cells. That last experiment grew hair that was confirmed to be human (and matched the donor in terms of intrinsic hair properties like color and thickness).

[postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]

OK, thanks.

Then wasn’t the last part of the Tsuji study, with the human cells, exactly the same as the 2013 Jahoda/Christiano study, in terms of method and outcome?

In fact, it may have been an even more impressive result, if the hairs were exactly like the donor hairs in appearance, size, etc.

[postedby]Originally Posted by Lindo[/postedby]

Well Jahoda’s study was impressive cause he was the first one to culture DP cells that kept their follicle inducing capability. Tsuji just extracted existing DP cells from human donors.

So, again, the only thing that stands between us and a cure are those DP cells. Tsuji already proved that DP cells regulate all intrinsic hair properties like color and thickness. The hair they grew was exactly like the donor’s hair, same colour, thickness etc. The only reason that was not the case for Jahoda was that he cultured those DP cells, causing them to lose 78% of the gene expression, including the hair color etc.

So, once they figure out a way to either improve the DP culture process so that more genes remain expressed OR find a way to induce iPS cells to become DP cells, then our problems are history. It’s really the last step, the only thing left that stands between us and unlimited hair :slight_smile: That’s why Washenik concluded his thesis with: “Recent developments in the field of regenerative medicine indicate that a cell-based solution for alopecia is coming soon.”[/quote]

54

[quote]Yes, and after the cell based solution is discovered it will take 5 - 10 more years for that solution to get into the marketplace which is why we should stop attacking mavericks like Dr. Nigam who can bypass all of the regulatory poo.

[postedby]Originally Posted by jarjarbinx[/postedby][/quote]

If that last step has been taken (and I’m sure Nigam wont be the one to take it), then of course, he might offer the treatment in India way before trials in the Western world end. I wouldn’t have any problems with that. I do have problems with the way he’s currently cheating and misleading. That’s all.

55

Exactly. For those who want to focus only on Dr. Nigam’s HT practice, and photoshopped pictures on his website, you can call him a fr@ud till you’re blue in the face, but that doesn’t negate the fact that his knowledge of the science is real, his cell culture research is real, and he’s really trying to help us.

It’s funny that Dr. Anjali Shere has been his biggest professional critic in India, accusing him of everything but killing puppies, but if you look at her own clinic website, it has a bunch of the most insanely photoshopped photos you’ll ever lay eyes on. It’s a complete joke, take a look.

http://digicom.in/dranjalishere.com/Gallery.html

56

Partially it’s that the fact that he’s deliberately tried to mislead makes people question whether his research really is legitimate, or a Bazan-like ploy to get attention and clients.

57

His website is shoddy no doubt and he himself admitted to it. As to why he does not fire his webmaster, I don’t know.

But he is definately no con artist. He’s hung around here posting detailed info on what he’s up to, posted (rather lack luster) before & after pictures of his research, posted about his meetings with other doctors & researchers (which those other researchers have verified), posted his medical license, posted evidence of himself meeting other researchers and info on their research before it became common knowledge …and taken ALL manner of abuses from idiots here.

There is surely a limit as to how much one man can take.

Which researcher in their right mind would show up here time and again with the above attacks daily. Certainly not one out for a quick buck.

58

As one of the doctors and researchers he met said, Nigam talks a good talk.

Although I’m not trying to suggest outright that he is one, that’s what good con artists do. We’ve been through this path before, and that’s why people are so sensitive about this issue. I think Nigam severely underestimated the level of critical thinking and rigor on these forums before he started posting.

Given the types of pictures he has posted, both here and on his website, the backlash is entirely expected. There’s a limit to how much we can take too.

You ask a very good question. What researcher in his right mind would show up here time and time again in the face of those attacks. His behavior is totally bizarre for a serious researcher. One very possible answer is, one who is out to gain exposure and draw people to his clinic, to make a quick buck.

Again, I’m not saying that I, or anybody else knows for sure whether Nigam is legit or not, but he certainly hasn’t behaved legitimate in many cases.

If he wants to treated as a legitimate researcher, he should act like one, get his results verified by an independent review board, publish them, and he’ll be one of the most famous cosmetic surgeons on the planet.

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Freddie555[/postedby]
His website is shoddy no doubt and he himself admitted to it. As to why he does not fire his webmaster, I don’t know.

But he is definately no con artist. He’s hung around here posting detailed info on what he’s up to, posted (rather lack luster) before & after pictures of his research, posted about his meetings with other doctors & researchers (which those other researchers have verified), posted his medical license, posted evidence of himself meeting other researchers and info on their research before it became common knowledge …and taken ALL manner of abuses from idiots here.

There is surely a limit as to how much one man can take.

Which researcher in their right mind would show up here time and again with the above attacks daily. Certainly not one out for a quick buck.[/quote]

59

And Freddie you’re right that he’s posted lackluster results and that’s one way we know he’s being honest with us. I know you understand that and why some of these other guys don’t understand that is beyond me.

Dr. Nigam photos show MODEST reversal of hair loss. If he was posting heavy regrowth for stage 4 and 5 patients I might have already flown to India to get the treatment. But he’s not there yet. Guys are accusing him of reporting major success but the photos I’ve seen make me think that he needs to improve the results significantly so there’s no justification to complain that he’s overstating his success.

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by Freddie555[/postedby]
His website is shoddy no doubt and he himself admitted to it. As to why he does not fire his webmaster, I don’t know.

But he is definately no con artist. He’s hung around here posting detailed info on what he’s up to, posted (rather lack luster) before & after pictures of his research, posted about his meetings with other doctors & researchers (which those other researchers have verified), posted his medical license, posted evidence of himself meeting other researchers and info on their research before it became common knowledge …and taken ALL manner of abuses from idiots here.

There is surely a limit as to how much one man can take.

Which researcher in their right mind would show up here time and again with the above attacks daily. Certainly not one out for a quick buck.[/quote]

60

  1. I think that what Dr. Nigam underestimated the level of stupidity and rudeness he would find at the fori.

  2. Some of the rudeness is the true and real fr@ud rather than anything Dr. Nigam has done. For example, calling Dr. Nigam’s lab a “kitchen” or calling his machinery a “Pizza Oven” really amounts to fr@ud because I have it on good authority that his lab is genuine and his machines are the real deal.

  3. So what if one of his competitors put him down? What would you expect from one of his competitors?

  4. He has posed not one pic that I’ve seen which demonstrates some outlandishly big amount of regrowth. His photos demonstrate modest hair growth is all. Indeed, his photos have me believing that he needs to do more research and try to improve the cell-therapy techniques to improve the results. So to me his photos are not an effort to convince us that he’s growing more than he really is because to me his photos indicate he’s not regrowing enough hair.

  5. If Dr. Nigam were to do what you want him to do - get his results viewed by independent researchers, submit articles for peer-review and publication then the next time you hear from him will be about 2 years from now and then you will complain that the researchers aren’t sharing info with us often enough.

  6. Dr. Nigam comes here to share info because he thinks that’s what we want. He thinks we’re all in on finding a cure together and he wants to give us immediate updates. What you want him to do would take result in us having to wait years before we got updates from him and it would slow down his progress too because he would be waiting for peer reviews of each step he takes before proceeding to the next step. That’s what the other researchers are doing and we are always complaining that we wish we could get information from them and that they won’t share information with us. And then we talk about trying to set-up interviews with them because we’re starved for information from them.

  7. We are lucky that this one guy will do so many experiments and share info with us in real time. That’s what we say we want them all to do.

  8. You’re just picking on him and you lack the good sense to realize it.

[quote]As one of the doctors and researchers he met said, Nigam talks a good talk.

Although I’m not trying to suggest outright that he is one, that’s what good con artists do. We’ve been through this path before, and that’s why people are so sensitive about this issue. I think Nigam severely underestimated the level of critical thinking and rigor on these forums before he started posting.

Given the types of pictures he has posted, both here and on his website, the backlash is entirely expected. There’s a limit to how much we can take too.

You ask a very good question. What researcher in his right mind would show up here time and time again in the face of those attacks. His behavior is totally bizarre for a serious researcher. One very possible answer is, one who is out to gain exposure and draw people to his clinic, to make a quick buck.

Again, I’m not saying that I, or anybody else knows for sure whether Nigam is legit or not, but he certainly hasn’t behaved legitimate in many cases.

If he wants to treated as a legitimate researcher, he should act like one, get his results verified by an independent review board, publish them, and he’ll be one of the most famous cosmetic surgeons on the planet.

[postedby]Originally Posted by Freddie555[/postedby]
His website is shoddy no doubt and he himself admitted to it. As to why he does not fire his webmaster, I don’t know.

But he is definately no con artist. He’s hung around here posting detailed info on what he’s up to, posted (rather lack luster) before & after pictures of his research, posted about his meetings with other doctors & researchers (which those other researchers have verified), posted his medical license, posted evidence of himself meeting other researchers and info on their research before it became common knowledge …and taken ALL manner of abuses from idiots here.

There is surely a limit as to how much one man can take.

Which researcher in their right mind would show up here time and again with the above attacks daily. Certainly not one out for a quick buck.

[postedby]Originally Posted by licht[/postedby][/quote]