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For less than 3000 grafts


#1

Hello,
Its not my intention to start a fresh debate on FUE and FUT since we are all pretty much clear on when to use each one.
However, if you were in need on less than 3000 grafts, something like needing to have the hairline (zone 1) and zone 2 done, why go to the hassle of doing FUT when in 2 sessions you can do it through FUE.
I have some friends who have had less than 2000 grafts through FUE, and it seems that no doctor would advise on FUT for such a small amount.
The reason I brought this up is seeing the thread by H&W and always realizing that his procedures and those of drs of the same level who do FUT, they end up doing in excess of 3000 grafts.
After all, if I had to choose between FUT and FUE for small procedures, I would not even think twice.
Cheers,


#2

» Hello,
» Its not my intention to start a fresh debate on FUE and FUT since we are
» all pretty much clear on when to use each one.
» However, if you were in need on less than 3000 grafts, something like
» needing to have the hairline (zone 1) and zone 2 done, why go to the
» hassle of doing FUT when in 2 sessions you can do it through FUE.
» I have some friends who have had less than 2000 grafts through FUE, and it
» seems that no doctor would advise on FUT for such a small amount.
» The reason I brought this up is seeing the thread by H&W and always
» realizing that his procedures and those of drs of the same level who do
» FUT, they end up doing in excess of 3000 grafts.
» After all, if I had to choose between FUT and FUE for small procedures, I
» would not even think twice.
» Cheers,

I agree that for small procedures under 1500 grafts is wise to go forward with the FUE technique but if two sessions are required then you should consider the cost,healing period,cosmetic look,time off work, excuses to relatives etc unless if you go ahead with a two or even three consecutive days of maximun FUE extraction.


#3

» » Hello,
» » Its not my intention to start a fresh debate on FUE and FUT since we
» are
» » all pretty much clear on when to use each one.
» » However, if you were in need on less than 3000 grafts, something like
» » needing to have the hairline (zone 1) and zone 2 done, why go to the
» » hassle of doing FUT when in 2 sessions you can do it through FUE.
» » I have some friends who have had less than 2000 grafts through FUE, and
» it
» » seems that no doctor would advise on FUT for such a small amount.
» » The reason I brought this up is seeing the thread by H&W and always
» » realizing that his procedures and those of drs of the same level who do
» » FUT, they end up doing in excess of 3000 grafts.
» » After all, if I had to choose between FUT and FUE for small procedures,
» I
» » would not even think twice.
» » Cheers,
»
» I agree that for small procedures under 1500 grafts is wise to go forward
» with the FUE technique but if two sessions are required then you should
» consider the cost,healing period,cosmetic look,time off work, excuses to
» relatives etc unless if you go ahead with a two or even three consecutive
» days of maximun FUE extraction.

This week, monday up to wednesday evening we performed a total of 5500 grafts.
We dont even consider this a stressfull week.

Why? because we do it every day.

Internally we consider less than 1500 grafts a day a small session, 2000 to 2500 makes our day :slight_smile:

I just want to inform that just like some highly specialised strip clinics there exist highly specialised FUE clinics. The way these clinics work are different in such that the ONLY perform hair surgery AND have extremely trained staff.

So, for many institutes 1000 or 1500 FUE per day is pure stress, to us it is routine.

So wheter or not FUE is only for small sessions I would not rule out FUE.


#4

The armani clinic is now doing large fue mega sessions and they seem to be getting good results.


#5

» The armani clinic is now doing large fue mega sessions and they seem to be» getting good results.Fair enough, some clinics like the one in Belgium and Armani can perform 3000+ grafts a day, but then we get into the issue of FUT or FUE for large procedures.I just think that for a large session, with FUT you cannot go wrong, but with FUE you are more restricted in the sense that you have to consider more variables cause not all people can withstand a 5000 FUE session, since it can blow your donor and make you hair look moth eaten.So, even though FUE is less invasive, FUE is not for everyone ESPECIALLY for large procedures.I hope that the clinics that have just given their comment would address this last issue.


#6

» Hello,
» Its not my intention to start a fresh debate on FUE and FUT since we are
» all pretty much clear on when to use each one.
» However, if you were in need on less than 3000 grafts, something like
» needing to have the hairline (zone 1) and zone 2 done, why go to the
» hassle of doing FUT when in 2 sessions you can do it through FUE.
» I have some friends who have had less than 2000 grafts through FUE, and it
» seems that no doctor would advise on FUT for such a small amount.
» The reason I brought this up is seeing the thread by H&W and always
» realizing that his procedures and those of drs of the same level who do
» FUT, they end up doing in excess of 3000 grafts.
» After all, if I had to choose between FUT and FUE for small procedures, I
» would not even think twice.
» Cheers,

I suppose FUT is the same as strip?


#7

» » Hello,
» » Its not my intention to start a fresh debate on FUE and FUT since we
» are
» » all pretty much clear on when to use each one.
» » However, if you were in need on less than 3000 grafts, something like
» » needing to have the hairline (zone 1) and zone 2 done, why go to the
» » hassle of doing FUT when in 2 sessions you can do it through FUE.
» » I have some friends who have had less than 2000 grafts through FUE, and
» it
» » seems that no doctor would advise on FUT for such a small amount.
» » The reason I brought this up is seeing the thread by H&W and always
» » realizing that his procedures and those of drs of the same level who do
» » FUT, they end up doing in excess of 3000 grafts.
» » After all, if I had to choose between FUT and FUE for small procedures,
» I
» » would not even think twice.
» » Cheers,
»
» I suppose FUT is the same as strip?

Indeed, fut=strip. Maybe there are some other names for it, but basically they are all strip surgery type.


#8

We have taken a very slow approach. We started performing FUE in 2004, in fact we where the very first insitute in Europe to offer FUE only (and very proud of it BTW).
In 2005 we went from 1 mm down to 0,6 and 0,7 mm and standard extraction tools. We found there was no problem extracting 3 and 4 hair grafts. These instruments are not patented, they can be bought of the shelve by any surgeon interested in doing FUE. Furthermore we noticed no yield drop due to using smaller tools.
In 2006 we changed some internal routines and focussed on doing 1000 grafts or a bit more a day. Slowly we increased our daily limit as our staff and docs became more experienced. It was always important for us to learn how to walk before we started to run.
2007 we started focussing on megasessions for up to 3000 FUE grafts per day.
We have noticed it is very popular with patients since they have less downtime and fewer sessions.

As for as donor area we where very concerned and did not venture into the 4000 or 5000 grafts sessions in the early days. However we have learned from our past experience that on patients 3000 grafts extracted does not leave any moth eathen look. We now have several ‘average’ donor patients with 4000-4500 grafts extracted and still we see no visual cosmetic impact on the donor area.

Let there be no mistake : FUE megassesions are for anyone who seeks hair transplants without having to worry about scarring or other nasty side effects of outdated procedures.

Please also remember that 3000 strip grafts does not equal 3000 FUE grafts (in our hands at least).
The average hairs per grafts is quite a bit higher in FUE than strip, it ranges from 10 to 20 percent.
This means that a 3000 FUE grafts sessions may equal 3300-3600 strip grafts.

As far as yield is concerned we see better yield, in fact this is reported to us by ex strip patients as we do not have any means to compare our FUE yield to our own strip yield.

As far as pricing is concerned the markets are at play.
Internationally seen our FUE pricing we charge are at the same level as strip prices in North America and Canada.


#9

» Please also remember that 3000 strip grafts does not equal 3000 FUE grafts
» (in our hands at least).
» The average hairs per grafts is quite a bit higher in FUE than strip, it
» ranges from 10 to 20 percent.
» This means that a 3000 FUE grafts sessions may equal 3300-3600 strip
» grafts.
»

I do not understand this; how can you get more hairs with FUE than with Strip, a follicular unit is already made and cannot be changed unless you split it to make it smaller so if you say you get more hair you must be taking more folicular unit with one extraction? and that doesnt make sense either with the punch size you say you use; i would think its impossible to remove two with a small punch unless you transect one maybe.


#10

The armani clinic is now doing large fue mega sessions and they seem tobe» getting good results.Fair enough, some clinics like the one in Belgiumand Armani can perform 3000+ grafts a day, but then we get into the issueof FUT or FUE for large procedures.I just think that for a large session,with FUT you cannot go wrong, but with FUE you are more restricted in thesense that you have to consider more variables cause not all people canwithstand a 5000 FUE session, since it can blow your donor and make youhair look moth eaten.So, even though FUE is less invasive, FUE is not foreveryone ESPECIALLY for large procedures.I hope that the clinics that havejust given their comment would address this last issue.» » Please also remember that 3000 strip grafts does not equal 3000 FUE» grafts» » (in our hands at least).» » The average hairs per grafts is quite a bit higher in FUE than strip,» it» » ranges from 10 to 20 percent.» » This means that a 3000 FUE grafts sessions may equal 3300-3600 strip» » grafts.» » » » I do not understand this; how can you get more hairs with FUE than with» Strip, a follicular unit is already made and cannot be changed unless you» split it to make it smaller so if you say you get more hair you must be» taking more folicular unit with one extraction? and that doesnt make sense» either with the punch size you say you use; i would think its impossible to» remove two with a small punch unless you transect one maybe.


#11

Hi Bverotti,
Thanks for your reply. I still have my doubts about FUE megassesion, not implying anything but your clinic, but the likelihood that every patient can undergo a 5000+ FUE sessions leaving the donor intact. You imply that its for everyone, when actually hair densities can differ widely per patient.
Then you say you are able to sort of hand pick the grafts you want which makes perfect sense, but do you use the same tool for each graft or do you change the extraction tool.
Another point, for patients beyond a NW5 that need like 10.000 grafts, what would you say.
Dont you think it makes more sense to have FUT or strip and then a second procedure with FUE to perfect or essentially to fill the “holes that were missing”.
How do you reconcile FUE with diff. hair textures, for instance for very fine hair what would be your approach?
Cheers

» We have taken a very slow approach. We started performing FUE in 2004, in
» fact we where the very first insitute in Europe to offer FUE only (and
» very proud of it BTW).
» In 2005 we went from 1 mm down to 0,6 and 0,7 mm and standard extraction
» tools. We found there was no problem extracting 3 and 4 hair grafts.
» These instruments are not patented, they can be bought of the shelve by
» any surgeon interested in doing FUE. Furthermore we noticed no yield drop
» due to using smaller tools.
» In 2006 we changed some internal routines and focussed on doing 1000
» grafts or a bit more a day. Slowly we increased our daily limit as our
» staff and docs became more experienced. It was always important for us to
» learn how to walk before we started to run.
» 2007 we started focussing on megasessions for up to 3000 FUE grafts per
» day.
» We have noticed it is very popular with patients since they have less
» downtime and fewer sessions.
»
» As for as donor area we where very concerned and did not venture into the
» 4000 or 5000 grafts sessions in the early days. However we have learned
» from our past experience that on patients 3000 grafts extracted does not
» leave any moth eathen look. We now have several ‘average’ donor patients
» with 4000-4500 grafts extracted and still we see no visual cosmetic impact
» on the donor area.
»
» Let there be no mistake : FUE megassesions are for anyone who seeks hair
» transplants without having to worry about scarring or other nasty side
» effects of outdated procedures.
»
» Please also remember that 3000 strip grafts does not equal 3000 FUE grafts
» (in our hands at least).
» The average hairs per grafts is quite a bit higher in FUE than strip, it
» ranges from 10 to 20 percent.
» This means that a 3000 FUE grafts sessions may equal 3300-3600 strip
» grafts.
»
» As far as yield is concerned we see better yield, in fact this is reported
» to us by ex strip patients as we do not have any means to compare our FUE
» yield to our own strip yield.
»
» As far as pricing is concerned the markets are at play.
» Internationally seen our FUE pricing we charge are at the same level as
» strip prices in North America and Canada.


#12

let it be clear that no donor area will be intact after fUE or strip.
FUE reduces the total amount of donor hair in the donor area.
We believe that most patients will have an FUE donor reserve of about 4000 to 6000 grafts, equalling strip.
I realize that once in a while you will see patient getting 8000-10000 strip graft. I dare argueing that if he had not done strip we could have gotten an equal amount of hair since this individual must have had higher than average donor supply to start with.

More hair with FUE :
Ok let me explain :
When taking out a strip it has to be slivered and the FU are split under the microscope. Let’s assume a person gets 3000 grafts with an average of 2 hair per graft.

Using FUE the doc takes out 3000 grafts. FUE grafts are typically ready for usage, no need for splitting (unless there is a shortage of 1 hair FU). FUE averages 2,2 to 2,8 hair per grafts.

You can do the math and see who gets more hair eventhough both have the same amount of grafts.


#13

Bverotti,
Please help me out with the math, Im not a science person.
You said that with FUE you can achieve between 4000-6000 leaving donor intact, and that you assume that 100% of patients have that much and that their hair texture is such that that number can be extracted. Fair enough up to now.
With strip you can extract a section that has easily 6000 grafts. Then you have rest to handpick you FUE grafts. I am not an expert, but from what I have heard and read, after dissecting such a strip you can easily try to work out 2000-3000 FUE grafts and in some cases even more, and all this leaving the donor intact. That can put you above 8000 grafts, and there are documented cases of 10.000 grafts with a combo of strip and FUE, of course here we are talking about especial cases.
Just in Strip I have seen cases of 7000 strip in one session and close to 10.000 in 2 sessions, honestly I dont know how that could be done with FUE.

Another thing is that your clinic is able as you well say to work with the grafts and achieve a higher yield, thats another matter, but with “convential” FUE, beyond 7.000 is only for the fortunate very few.

Please correct me if Im wrong.
Cheers.

» let it be clear that no donor area will be intact after fUE or strip.
» FUE reduces the total amount of donor hair in the donor area.
» We believe that most patients will have an FUE donor reserve of about 4000
» to 6000 grafts, equalling strip.
» I realize that once in a while you will see patient getting 8000-10000
» strip graft. I dare argueing that if he had not done strip we could have
» gotten an equal amount of hair since this individual must have had higher
» than average donor supply to start with.
»
» More hair with FUE :
» Ok let me explain :
» When taking out a strip it has to be slivered and the FU are split under
» the microscope. Let’s assume a person gets 3000 grafts with an average of
» 2 hair per graft.
»
» Using FUE the doc takes out 3000 grafts. FUE grafts are typically ready
» for usage, no need for splitting (unless there is a shortage of 1 hair
» FU). FUE averages 2,2 to 2,8 hair per grafts.
»
» You can do the math and see who gets more hair eventhough both have the
» same amount of grafts.


#14

» Bverotti,
» Please help me out with the math, Im not a science person.
» You said that with FUE you can achieve between 4000-6000 leaving donor
» intact, and that you assume that 100% of patients have that much and that
» their hair texture is such that that number can be extracted. Fair enough
» up to now.
» With strip you can extract a section that has easily 6000 grafts. Then
» you have rest to handpick you FUE grafts. I am not an expert, but from
» what I have heard and read, after dissecting such a strip you can easily
» try to work out 2000-3000 FUE grafts and in some cases even more, and all
» this leaving the donor intact. That can put you above 8000 grafts, and
» there are documented cases of 10.000 grafts with a combo of strip and FUE,
» of course here we are talking about especial cases.
» Just in Strip I have seen cases of 7000 strip in one session and close to
» 10.000 in 2 sessions, honestly I dont know how that could be done with
» FUE.
»

Boris, I have never ever stated that you can extract grafts from someones donor area and leave it intact. Anytime you extract grafts from the donor area, whether it is by FUE or strip, it will leave marks in the form of a linear scar or tiny white patches without hair growth.

We could make a 3000 FUE graft case into a 4000 FUE session if we would split the larger grafts to singles or doubles. However we feel that is ripping of the patients.


#15

» let it be clear that no donor area will be intact after fUE or strip.
» FUE reduces the total amount of donor hair in the donor area.
» We believe that most patients will have an FUE donor reserve of about 4000
» to 6000 grafts, equalling strip.
» I realize that once in a while you will see patient getting 8000-10000
» strip graft. I dare argueing that if he had not done strip we could have
» gotten an equal amount of hair since this individual must have had higher
» than average donor supply to start with.
»
» More hair with FUE :
» Ok let me explain :
» When taking out a strip it has to be slivered and the FU are split under
» the microscope. Let’s assume a person gets 3000 grafts with an average of
» 2 hair per graft.
»
» Using FUE the doc takes out 3000 grafts. FUE grafts are typically ready
» for usage, no need for splitting (unless there is a shortage of 1 hair
» FU). FUE averages 2,2 to 2,8 hair per grafts.
»
» You can do the math and see who gets more hair eventhough both have the
» same amount of grafts.

I am sorry but you still make no sense and i think you are playing with words, how can one technique give you more hair than another from a FU if you are removing them properly. It doesn’t matter if they are taken from a strip or taken individually they still have the same amount of hairs; unless the doctor decided to make them bigger and then call them graft and not FU like you seem to do. This is classic B|S in my book, hype to make one look better without proof; just words.Show us a pictures of a FU that average 2.8 hairs naturally and in the majority of people not one really lucky person.


#16

» » let it be clear that no donor area will be intact after fUE or strip.
» » FUE reduces the total amount of donor hair in the donor area.
» » We believe that most patients will have an FUE donor reserve of about
» 4000
» » to 6000 grafts, equalling strip.
» » I realize that once in a while you will see patient getting 8000-10000
» » strip graft. I dare argueing that if he had not done strip we could
» have
» » gotten an equal amount of hair since this individual must have had
» higher
» » than average donor supply to start with.
» »
» » More hair with FUE :
» » Ok let me explain :
» » When taking out a strip it has to be slivered and the FU are split
» under
» » the microscope. Let’s assume a person gets 3000 grafts with an average
» of
» » 2 hair per graft.
» »
» » Using FUE the doc takes out 3000 grafts. FUE grafts are typically ready
» » for usage, no need for splitting (unless there is a shortage of 1 hair
» » FU). FUE averages 2,2 to 2,8 hair per grafts.
» »
» » You can do the math and see who gets more hair eventhough both have the
» » same amount of grafts.
»
» I am sorry but you still make no sense and i think you are playing with
» words, how can one technique give you more hair than another from a FU if
» you are removing them properly. It doesn’t matter if they are taken from a
» strip or taken individually they still have the same amount of hairs;
» unless the doctor decided to make them bigger and then call them graft and
» not FU like you seem to do. This is classic B|S in my book, hype to make
» one look better without proof; just words.Show us a pictures of a FU that
» average 2.8 hairs naturally and in the majority of people not one really
» lucky person.

I really dont understand why this is hard to grasp.
It has been generally accepted that FUE produces higher hair count per graft. This is due to the nature of a doc being able to cherry pick larger grafts. There was a study presented about this by dr. Mwamba (if I am not mistaken) at the ISHRS in San Diego. So this is not BS, this is fact.


#17

Some doctors called it FUT or FUHT, both are STRIP.

FUT = Follicular Unit Transplant
FUHT = Follicular Unit Hair Transplant


#18

Hairsite,So what is the relationship of your comment btw FUT and FUHT with what bvertotty is saying. Do you agree with his comment?
First off, do you think FUE can be used universally and yield both better coverage and density than FUT?
Personally, I dont know what he is trying to sell us here, he thinks we are all in HT 101 around here.I hope he takes my comment to mean that Im not against any particular clinic that does this procedure, I just dont understand the logic of the procedure, regardless of it been peformed by his clinic or some other one.
I think this is a very important matter to be left untouched especially for those of us who have gone through the pain of a FUT procedure!!


#19

» Hairsite,So what is the relationship of your comment btw FUT and FUHT with
» what bvertotty is saying. Do you agree with his comment?
» First off, do you think FUE can be used universally and yield both better
» coverage and density than FUT?
» Personally, I dont know what he is trying to sell us here, he thinks we
» are all in HT 101 around here.I hope he takes my comment to mean that Im
» not against any particular clinic that does this procedure, I just dont
» understand the logic of the procedure, regardless of it been peformed by
» his clinic or some other one.
» I think this is a very important matter to be left untouched especially
» for those of us who have gone through the pain of a FUT procedure!!

bvertotty said "It has been generally accepted that FUE produces higher hair count per graft. This is due to the nature of a doc being able to cherry pick larger grafts. There was a study presented about this by dr. Mwamba (if I am not mistaken) at the ISHRS in San Diego. So this is not BS, this is fact. "

Well I think it’s bull sh*t, can I see the study ? Everybody knows if you want to max out your donor, the only way is by strip.


#20

»
» bvertotty said "It has been generally accepted that FUE produces higher
» hair count per graft. This is due to the nature of a doc being able to
» cherry pick larger grafts. There was a study presented about this by dr.
» Mwamba (if I am not mistaken) at the ISHRS in San Diego. So this is not
» BS, this is fact. "
»
» Well I think it’s bull sh*t, can I see the study ? Everybody knows if you
» want to max out your donor, the only way is by strip.

I thnk it is not only insulting to refer to this study / idea as bull it also shows a lot of ignorance.

The comments by bevrotti have been explained over and over again on these boards and it is not rocket science. At least try to get to grips with an idea before becoming critical about it.

If you can pick a follicle then a follicle with the most hair can be picked. When performing strip this cannot be done.

It may be that strip produces better results but that does not impact on the truth of these comments and you will need to look for other reasons.