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For Baccy and Cal..........a suggestion


#1

I have an idea…the wounds in the mice experiments in Nature were 1-2 centimeters in diameter.

One could make 4-5 different wounds and try four or five different approaches all at once, and get the various combos “tried” at the same time.

I really think that a topical immunosuppressant that inhibits T-cell responses is probably going to be necessary.

If you think about the human skin experiments at follica where human hair was grown on SCID mice, they done so with just wounding. The mice dont have immune systems. No EGF-antagonists were used. Its experiment number 7 in the patent.

We know via experiment seven that mice were abraded, and in seven days hair placodes were detected in their skin. So if you dont abrade too deeply…whatever is going to happen will happen fairly quickly. If one allowed for 2-3 extra days, that would be 10 days past wounding.

I also think that using shampoo or any water on the abraded area is just adding an uneccessary variable. The mice in the experiments were not washed, so neither should someone hoping to replicate the experiment. The patent says “no anti-infectives” should be used up there after wounding for up to two weeks thereafter. Thats 14 days. Thats another reason to advocate only wouding a small area in the front or back that you can avoid letting water or shampoo touch in my opinion.

I’ll probably give it one more try, but it may be a few months or even the beginning of the year before I can do so. I’ll eliminate all variables at that point and wound, wait about four days, and use getfitinib and cyclo for about five straight days. I wont wash the abraded area. If I get nada…you can pretty much forget anyone having a home result. Then we will all know.

BTW-----I dont pay attention to any of these posters who come on here (for whatever personal reason) and mock and make fun of anyone trying any of this stuff. I really cant for the life of me figure out why David Tse allows these folks to spam up their forum with what must be a big hobby in their spare time. Just ignore them and dont reply to them. If one of us gets some hair growth up there, nobody is going to talk it away. If one of us has success, then we can all follow what that person did to a “T” and expect the same.

I do stand by my observation about immunity. I think T-cell responses are going to have to be muted for this to really go. If not, then why dont more men with sunburns on their shoulders get more hair growth there? Ive been sunbunrt several times in years past where my skin peeled (think about how many layers would be damaged for you to peel…way down there, mitigating the skins ability to have epidermal growth factor even participate in the healing). Why dont more of them get hairy shoulders? We have immune systems. Hideo Uno remarked that stuptailed macaque balding (most of those apes bald) does not dispaly inflammation or excessive collagenous deposition as humans do, or no extra gathering of immuno cells at the base of the follicles as is seen histologically in human androgenic alopecia.

I think the immune system will have to be inhibited at least topically for EDIHN to work in real people. I’d like to be wrong about that, but in all the experiments with human skin, the mice were SCID mice. The two human hair growth photos we know of are of people who were in chemotherapy, and thus had very weakened immune response.

I mean what I say about the five different nickel-to-quater-sized wounds. You could try your five favorite approaches and “get it out of the way” by doing so.


#2

» I have an idea…the wounds in the mice experiments in Nature
» were 1-2 centimeters in diameter.
»
» One could make 4-5 different wounds and try four or five different
» approaches all at once, and get the various combos “tried” at the same
» time.
»
»
» I really think that a topical immunosuppressant that inhibits T-cell
» responses is probably going to be necessary.
»
»
» If you think about the human skin experiments at follica where human hair
» was grown on SCID mice, they done so with just wounding. The mice dont have
» immune systems. No EGF-antagonists were used. Its experiment number 7 in
» the patent.
»
»
» We know via experiment seven that mice were abraded, and in seven days
» hair placodes were detected in their skin. So if you dont abrade too
» deeply…whatever is going to happen will happen fairly quickly.
» If one allowed for 2-3 extra days, that would be 10 days past wounding.
»
» I also think that using shampoo or any water on the abraded area is just
» adding an uneccessary variable. The mice in the experiments were not
» washed, so neither should someone hoping to replicate the experiment. The
» patent says “no anti-infectives” should be used up there after wounding for
» up to two weeks thereafter. Thats 14 days. Thats another reason to advocate
» only wouding a small area in the front or back that you can avoid letting
» water or shampoo touch in my opinion.
»
»
»
» I’ll probably give it one more try, but it may be a few months or even the
» beginning of the year before I can do so. I’ll eliminate all variables at
» that point and wound, wait about four days, and use getfitinib and cyclo
» for about five straight days. I wont wash the abraded area. If I get
» nada…you can pretty much forget anyone having a home result. Then we
» will all know.
»
»
»
»
» BTW-----I dont pay attention to any of these posters who come on here (for
» whatever personal reason) and mock and make fun of anyone trying any of
» this stuff. I really cant for the life of me figure out why David Tse
» allows these folks to spam up their forum with what must be a big hobby in
» their spare time. Just ignore them and dont reply to them. If one of us
» gets some hair growth up there, nobody is going to talk it away. If one of
» us has success, then we can all follow what that person did to a “T” and
» expect the same.
»
»
» I do stand by my observation about immunity. I think T-cell responses are
» going to have to be muted for this to really go. If not, then why dont more
» men with sunburns on their shoulders get more hair growth there? Ive been
» sunbunrt several times in years past where my skin peeled (think about how
» many layers would be damaged for you to peel…way down there,
» mitigating the skins ability to have epidermal growth factor even
» participate in the healing). Why dont more of them get hairy shoulders? We
» have immune systems. Hideo Uno remarked that stuptailed macaque balding
» (most of those apes bald) does not dispaly inflammation or excessive
» collagenous deposition as humans do, or no extra gathering of immuno cells
» at the base of the follicles as is seen histologically in human androgenic
» alopecia.
»
»
» I think the immune system will have to be inhibited at least topically for
» EDIHN to work in real people. I’d like to be wrong about that, but in all
» the experiments with human skin, the mice were SCID mice. The two human
» hair growth photos we know of are of people who were in chemotherapy, and
» thus had very weakened immune response.
»
»
»
»
» I mean what I say about the five different nickel-to-quater-sized wounds.
» You could try your five favorite approaches and “get it out of the way” by
» doing so.

Benji,

There seem to be quite a significant number of variables - wounding depth, wnt-suppressors, post-wounding time, immuno-suppressors, etc. in the Follica patent. I am not sure that you will have covered all possibilities after your planned “various combos” trial.

Another approach could be to look back at Baccy’s 1st (half-) successfull experiment, and modify/add one variable. Although I have no background in trials/research on human beings, I base this judgement from a few years spent in chemistry-related research area, i.e. start with “what we know has worked”.

I would love to be in a position to become more involved in this “DIY trials” as well, however, I won’t be able before next summer if time allows (having just started my own business, and… having to think @ my family!).

In any case, many thanks to you and all the other great posters of the HM section to share experiments/results/articles/opinion (Cal, Goata, Rev, Amilcar, Sceptic, Willy and all the other guys I have forgotten in this list).

That’s great to see people being at least a minimum optimistic about future treatments/cures, not all gloom and doom.

LL.


#3

» I’ll probably give it one more try, but it may be a few months or even the
» beginning of the year before I can do so. I’ll eliminate all variables at
» that point and wound, wait about four days, and use getfitinib and cyclo
» for about five straight days. I wont wash the abraded area. If I get
» nada…you can pretty much forget anyone having a home result. Then we
» will all know.
»
»

» …

» I do stand by my observation about immunity. I think T-cell responses are
» going to have to be muted for this to really go. If not, then why dont more
» men with sunburns on their shoulders get more hair growth there? Ive been
» sunbunrt several times in years past where my skin peeled (think about how
» many layers would be damaged for you to peel…way down there,
» mitigating the skins ability to have epidermal growth factor even
» participate in the healing). Why dont more of them get hairy shoulders? We
» have immune systems. Hideo Uno remarked that stuptailed macaque balding
» (most of those apes bald) does not dispaly inflammation or excessive
» collagenous deposition as humans do, or no extra gathering of immuno cells
» at the base of the follicles as is seen histologically in human androgenic
» alopecia.
»
»
i’m thinking to scid mice… immune system was dropped before wound .

Maybe if benjii attempt fail it’s beacause this .

Can we consider this another variable or someone more expert can
confirm this is not a trouble?

( i mean should … do we wound after drop out immune system ? …i think that’s could be a little dangerous but …if needed… )

» I think the immune system will have to be inhibited at least topically for
» EDIHN to work in real people. I’d like to be wrong about that, but in all
» the experiments with human skin, the mice were SCID mice. The two human
» hair growth photos we know of are of people who were in chemotherapy, and
» thus had very weakened immune response.
»
»
one (sure stupid) question… but the man in photo with hair growth was using only gefitinib (or like) ?

Because if he was under complete chemotherapy … no shedding (for chemo) but regrowth !!!

It will be very impressive.


#4

»
» Another approach could be to look back at Baccy’s 1st (half-) successfull
» experiment, and modify/add one variable. Although I have no background in
» trials/research on human beings, I base this judgement from a few years
» spent in chemistry-related research area, i.e. start with “what we know has
» worked”.

You’re right of course. In my line of work in engineering, I use similar methods of altering only one variable. Unfortunately, despite being bald, I’m also human and as commented on recently by an esteemed member of this board, subject to impatience. It’s a human flaw that I’m seeking to overcome in my next try. :slight_smile:
»
»


#5

» I have an idea…the wounds in the mice experiments in Nature
» were 1-2 centimeters in diameter.
»
» One could make 4-5 different wounds and try four or five different
» approaches all at once, and get the various combos “tried” at the same
» time.
»
»
» I really think that a topical immunosuppressant that inhibits T-cell
» responses is probably going to be necessary.
»
»
» If you think about the human skin experiments at follica where human hair
» was grown on SCID mice, they done so with just wounding. The mice dont have
» immune systems. No EGF-antagonists were used. Its experiment number 7 in
» the patent.
»
»
» We know via experiment seven that mice were abraded, and in seven days
» hair placodes were detected in their skin. So if you dont abrade too
» deeply…whatever is going to happen will happen fairly quickly.
» If one allowed for 2-3 extra days, that would be 10 days past wounding.
»
» I also think that using shampoo or any water on the abraded area is just
» adding an uneccessary variable. The mice in the experiments were not
» washed, so neither should someone hoping to replicate the experiment. The
» patent says “no anti-infectives” should be used up there after wounding for
» up to two weeks thereafter. Thats 14 days. Thats another reason to advocate
» only wouding a small area in the front or back that you can avoid letting
» water or shampoo touch in my opinion.
»
»
»
» I’ll probably give it one more try, but it may be a few months or even the
» beginning of the year before I can do so. I’ll eliminate all variables at
» that point and wound, wait about four days, and use getfitinib and cyclo
» for about five straight days. I wont wash the abraded area. If I get
» nada…you can pretty much forget anyone having a home result. Then we
» will all know.
»
»
»
»
» BTW-----I dont pay attention to any of these posters who come on here (for
» whatever personal reason) and mock and make fun of anyone trying any of
» this stuff. I really cant for the life of me figure out why David Tse
» allows these folks to spam up their forum with what must be a big hobby in
» their spare time. Just ignore them and dont reply to them. If one of us
» gets some hair growth up there, nobody is going to talk it away. If one of
» us has success, then we can all follow what that person did to a “T” and
» expect the same.
»
»
» I do stand by my observation about immunity. I think T-cell responses are
» going to have to be muted for this to really go. If not, then why dont more
» men with sunburns on their shoulders get more hair growth there? Ive been
» sunbunrt several times in years past where my skin peeled (think about how
» many layers would be damaged for you to peel…way down there,
» mitigating the skins ability to have epidermal growth factor even
» participate in the healing). Why dont more of them get hairy shoulders? We
» have immune systems. Hideo Uno remarked that stuptailed macaque balding
» (most of those apes bald) does not dispaly inflammation or excessive
» collagenous deposition as humans do, or no extra gathering of immuno cells
» at the base of the follicles as is seen histologically in human androgenic
» alopecia.
»
»
» I think the immune system will have to be inhibited at least topically for
» EDIHN to work in real people. I’d like to be wrong about that, but in all
» the experiments with human skin, the mice were SCID mice. The two human
» hair growth photos we know of are of people who were in chemotherapy, and
» thus had very weakened immune response.
»
»
»
»
» I mean what I say about the five different nickel-to-quater-sized wounds.
» You could try your five favorite approaches and “get it out of the way” by
» doing so.

Benji,

I created a thread a few days ago inquiring about the danger of taking gefitinib while on an immunosuppressant. What are your thoughts, if even taking gefitinib for 4 days?


#6

» one (sure stupid) question… but the man in photo with hair growth was
» using only gefitinib (or like) ?
»
» Because if he was under complete chemotherapy … no shedding (for chemo)
» but regrowth ??!!!
»
» It will be very impressive.

Ok now this is the complete description …so ,the man drop out chemo before gefitinib :

Correspondence

Hairnext term Growth After previous termGefitinibnext term Treatment

L.W. LeeCorresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author and P.A. Burt
Department of Clinical Oncology, Christie Hospital, Manchester, UK

Received 28 April 2005;
accepted 11 May 2005.
Available online 13 June 2005.

Article Outline

References

We report an interesting case of new hair growth after gefitinib treatment. A 57-year-old man with androgenic alopecia first presented with back pain in January 2004. A bone scan showed increased uptake in the sacrum, and the lumbar spine. A biopsy of the spine confirmed adenocarcinoma consistent with non-small-cell lung cancer. A computed tomography/positron emission tomography scan confirmed lung cancer in February 2004. He received fractionated palliative radiotherapy to the sacrum in February 2004, with good symptomatic response. Subsequently, he received three cycles of carboplatin and gemcitabine chemotherapy between March and June 2004. Unfortunately, chemotherapy had to be discontinued because of toxicity and also new-onset deep venous thromboembolism, for which he was anticoagulated. He was started on gefitinib 250 mg daily in July 2004, which he tolerated well.

In August 2004, he was pleasantly surprised by new hair growth in a previously long-standing bald patch on the vertex of his scalp (Fig. 1). The hair was of a different colour and texture to his normal hair. In May 2005, he is still on gefitinib and enjoying his new appearance.

Full-size image (69K) - Opens new window Full-size image (69K)

(—cut of the well know image of hair growth —)

Fig. 1. New hair growth on previous bald vertex.

Gefitinib, also known as ZD1839, is a new oral epidermal growth factor receptor tyrosine kinase inhibitor that has been used for lung cancer. It blocks signal transduction pathways implicated in the survival and proliferation of tumour cells and other host dependent pathways in tumourogenesis 1 J. Baselga, New therapeutic agents targeting the epidermal growth receptor, J Clin Oncol 29 (2000), pp. 138–140.[1]. Epidermal growth factor receptor is important for normal skin and hair development and growth [2]. Gefitinib is well known to be associated with skin rashes, such as acneiform follicular papules and pustules [3]. A case report has been published on excessive increase in length of eyelashes and eyebrows in a patient who also had acneiform rashes after gefitinib [4]. In three monotherapy clinical studies of IRESSA 250 mg/day, only one patient out of a total of 1331 had mild common toxicity criteria grade 1 hair disorder [3]. However, no previous report of new hair growth in a previous bald patch has been described. Therefore, this is an interesting case illustrating an unusual positive side-effect of a novel anticancer drug.
References

1 J. Baselga, New therapeutic agents targeting the epidermal growth receptor, J Clin Oncol 29 (2000), pp. 138–140.

2 L.B. Nanney, C.M. Stoscheck and L.E. King et al., Immunolocation of epidermal growth factor receptors in the normal developing human skin, J Invest Dermatol 94 (1990), pp. 742–748. View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (67)

3 B. Forsythe and K. Faulkner, Overview of the tolerability of gefitinib (IRESSA) monotherapy. Clinical experience in non-small-cell lung cancer, Drug Safety 27 (2004), pp. 1081–1092. Full Text via CrossRef | View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (24)

4 J.C. Pascual, J. Banuls, Belinchon, M. Blanes and B. Massuti, Trichomegaly following treatment with gefitinib (ZD1839), Br J Dermatol 151 (2004), pp. 1111–1112. Full Text via CrossRef | View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (27)

Corresponding Author Contact InformationAuthor for correspondence: Lip Wai Lee, MBBS, MRCP, FRCR, Christie Hospital, Clinical Oncology, Wilmslow Road, Manchester ST4 6RE, UK. Tel: +44-161-4463000.


#7

DRUG INTERACTIONS
Substances that are inducers of CYP3A4 activity increase the metabolism of gefitinib and decrease its plasma concentrations. In patients receiving a potent CYP3A4 inducer such as rifampicin or phenytoin, a dose increase to 500 mg daily should be considered in the absence of severe adverse drug reaction, and clinical response and adverse events should be carefully monitored (see CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY - Pharmacokinetics-Drug-Drug Interactions and DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION - Dosage Adjustment sections).

International Normalized Ratio (INR) elevations and/or bleeding events have been reported in some patients taking warfarin while on IRESSA therapy. Patients taking warfarin should be monitored regularly for changes in prothrombin time or INR (see CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY - Pharmacokinetics-Drug-Drug Interactions and ADVERSE REACTIONS sections).

Substances that are potent inhibitors of CYP3A4 activity (eg, ketoconazole and itraconazole) decrease gefitinib metabolism and increase gefitinib plasma concentrations. This increase may be clinically relevant as adverse experiences are related to dose and exposure; therefore, caution should be used when administering CYP3A4 inhibitors with IRESSA (see CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY - Pharmacokinetics-Drug-Drug Interactions and ADVERSE REACTIONS sections).

Drugs that cause significant sustained elevation in gastric pH (histamine H2-receptor antagonists such as ranitidine or cimetidine) may reduce plasma concentrations of IRESSA and therefore potentially may reduce efficacy (see CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY - Drug-Drug Interactions section).

Phase II clinical trial data, where IRESSA and vinorelbine have been used concomitantly, indicate that IRESSA may exacerbate the neutropenic effect of vinorelbine.

Getfitinib is made to be used after people have tried chemo (so their immunity would be way down). If you timed it just right, and watched the wounds, you’d probably only have to take getfitinib for two days. You’d get about an extra day of egf-inhibition due to the drugs half-life. Your supposed to take it with a full glass of water. It is dehydrating. One would really have to watch the abraded area and use the getfitinib when the crusts are falling off. This would probably be about day four or even five. When the epidermal stem cells “decide” to make hairs and have done so for about a day, there isn’t going to be a “turning back” point. They will fufill what they have started unless you put some harsh chemical up there that literally sticks its finger in the process.


#8

»
»
»
»
» Getfitinib is made to be used after people have tried chemo
» (so their immunity would be way down). If you timed it just right, and
» watched the wounds, you’d probably only have to take getfitinib for two
» days. You’d get about an extra day of egf-inhibition due to the drugs
» half-life. Your supposed to take it with a full glass of water. It is
» dehydrating. One would really have to watch the abraded area and use the
» getfitinib when the crusts are falling off. This would probably be about
» day four or even five. When the epidermal stem cells “decide” to make hairs
» and have done so for about a day, there isn’t going to be a “turning back”
» point. They will fufill what they have started unless you put some harsh
» chemical up there that literally sticks its finger in the process.

READ THIS INFO TAGOHL POSTED A WEEK OR SO BACK:

I agree that the first couple of days of the window are the most important. In my opinion, the total window is probably no more than about 7 days, with a very heavy emphasis on the first 2 or 3 days or so. Originally, I thought the compound would be used for 10 days, but if you timed it right, a few days should be all that’s necessary.

I am basing the 7 day window figure on the Nature study. Specifically, a WNT inhibitor (Dkk1) was tested in four intervals in mice: days 0-10, days 0-17, days 11-14, and days 12-15. With days 0-10 of inibition only, you get a full complement of new hair follicles (97 follicles in this experiment). With days 0-17 inhibited, you get zero hair follicles. With days 11-14, you get several follicles (3 in the experiment), and days 12-15, you get just a couple of follicles (2 in the actual experiment).

What this experiment shows is the following: days 11-17 are clearly where all the magic takes place (it’s the embryonic window), and almost all of the magic takes place in the first few days of the window.

By the way, what’s so special about day 11? Day 11, in mice, is when the wounds have re-epithelialized. So, as the above experiment demonstrates, the embryonic window occurs after the wound re-epithelializes (since manipulation prior to re-epithelialization…days 0-10…has no effect). And as we have speculated, the window appears to be open very wide for only a few days, then it sharply closes over the next several days.

See what I mean about “timing”. Youve got to recognize when the human skin has re-epilithialized and use the drugs then. When the process “gets going” it will fufill itself if you dont interdict it with something.


#9

» »
» » Another approach could be to look back at Baccy’s 1st (half-)
» successfull
» » experiment, and modify/add one variable. Although I have no background
» in
» » trials/research on human beings, I base this judgement from a few years
» » spent in chemistry-related research area, i.e. start with “what we know
» has
» » worked”.
»
» You’re right of course. In my line of work in engineering, I use similar
» methods of altering only one variable. Unfortunately, despite being bald,
» I’m also human and as commented on recently by an esteemed member of this
» board, subject to impatience. It’s a human flaw that I’m seeking to
» overcome in my next try. :slight_smile:
» »
» »

Just another question/suggestion (once again, this is coming from a relatively newbie on hairsite who still has to finish to read “hair loss for dummies”:slight_smile: ). Did you compare your method with the poster on hlt (Orin) who claimed to have regrown some hair as well?

Good luck Baccy.


#10

» »
» »
» »
» »
» » Getfitinib is made to be used after people have tried
» chemo
» » (so their immunity would be way down). If you timed it just right, and
» » watched the wounds, you’d probably only have to take getfitinib for two
» » days. You’d get about an extra day of egf-inhibition due to the drugs
» » half-life. Your supposed to take it with a full glass of water. It is
» » dehydrating. One would really have to watch the abraded area and use
» the
» » getfitinib when the crusts are falling off. This would probably be
» about
» » day four or even five. When the epidermal stem cells “decide” to make
» hairs
» » and have done so for about a day, there isn’t going to be a “turning
» back”
» » point. They will fufill what they have started unless you put some
» harsh
» » chemical up there that literally sticks its finger in the process.
»
»
»
»
» READ THIS INFO TAGOHL POSTED A WEEK OR SO BACK:
»
» I agree that the first couple of days of the window are the
» most important. In my opinion, the total window is probably no more than
» about 7 days, with a very heavy emphasis on the first 2 or 3 days or so.
» Originally, I thought the compound would be used for 10 days, but if you
» timed it right, a few days should be all that’s necessary.
»
» I am basing the 7 day window figure on the Nature study. Specifically, a
» WNT inhibitor (Dkk1) was tested in four intervals in mice: days 0-10, days
» 0-17, days 11-14, and days 12-15. With days 0-10 of inibition only,
» you get a full complement of new hair follicles (97 follicles in this
» experiment). With days 0-17 inhibited, you get zero hair follicles. With
» days 11-14, you get several follicles (3 in the experiment), and days
» 12-15, you get just a couple of follicles (2 in the actual
» experiment).

»
» What this experiment shows is the following: days 11-17 are clearly where
» all the magic takes place (it’s the embryonic window), and almost all of
» the magic takes place in the first few days of the window.
»
» By the way, what’s so special about day 11? Day 11, in mice, is when
» the wounds have re-epithelialized.
So, as the above experiment
» demonstrates, the embryonic window occurs after the wound re-epithelializes
» (since manipulation prior to re-epithelialization…days 0-10…has no
» effect). And as we have speculated, the window appears to be open very wide
» for only a few days, then it sharply closes over the next several days.
»
»
»
»
» See what I mean about “timing”. Youve got to recognize when the human skin
» has re-epilithialized and use the drugs then. When the process “gets going”
» it will fufill itself if you dont interdict it with something.

I understand the importance of timing the consumption of the EGF inhibitor correctly. I was more concerned about the safety of combining Gefitinib with Cyclosporine, even for a few days. I suppose we can take some comfort in the fact that cancer patients take Gefitinib for a much longer period of time in a similar weakened state.

What do you think of Baccy’s decision to use Tannic Acid and Tacrolimus? Also, how do you measure the depth of a wound this shallow?


#11

» I have an idea…the wounds in the mice experiments in Nature
» were 1-2 centimeters in diameter.
»
» One could make 4-5 different wounds and try four or five different
» approaches all at once, and get the various combos “tried” at the same
» time.

It’s funny you mentioned coins as a reference for wound sizes. I thought of the same thing, and I actually measured out some coins with a ruler. I think even a dime might suffice (a dime is about 1.8 cm…a quarter is about 2.5 cm). Which is to say, take a coin out of your pocket, put it against your skin, and trace the wound area. You don’t need it to be perfectly round, either, at least according to the wounds in the Nature study, which were very irregular in shape.

Random stuff:

There’s another topical immunosupressant you can use besides tacrolimus: pimecrolimus (sold as Elidel). I use pimecrolimus all the time…it’s great for a variety of skin problems (dermatitis, excema, etc.) It comes in a cream form, it’s light, absorbs quickly, and leaves no residue. Like tacrolimus, pimecrolimus is a calcineurin inhibitor that inhibits T-cell activation, thus producing immune suppression. Just another option to tacrolimus ointment, that’s all.

Oral cyclosporine is used by some docs short-term to treat bad cases of posion ivy. It’s also been used for alopecia areata. It’s probably OK for a couple days use, provided you have no concurrent infection.

http://dermatology.cdlib.org/rxderm-archives/cyclosporin-for-contact-derm

I can’t believe I didn’t do more tests when I took gefitinib. If I was going to go through the hassle of taking it orally, I should have done a lot more experimenting. It’s something I will do if I try this again. Like you suggested, Benji, I should have made like four coin-sized wounds: use TCA for one wound, sandpaper for the other, sandpaper plus pimecrolimus for another, and depilation, sandpaper, and pimecrolimus for the fourth wound. Of course, EGF would also be inhibited after N days.

I will post an update on my last experiment sometime in the next week or two.


#12

» » I have an idea…the wounds in the mice experiments in
» Nature
» » were 1-2 centimeters in diameter.
» »
» » One could make 4-5 different wounds and try four or five different
» » approaches all at once, and get the various combos “tried” at the same
» » time.
»
» It’s funny you mentioned coins as a reference for wound sizes. I thought
» of the same thing, and I actually measured out some coins with a ruler. I
» think even a dime might suffice (a dime is about 1.8 cm…a quarter is
» about 2.5 cm). Which is to say, take a coin out of your pocket, put it
» against your skin, and trace the wound area. You don’t need it to be
» perfectly round, either, at least according to the wounds in the Nature
» study, which were very irregular in shape.
»
» Random stuff:
»
» There’s another topical immunosupressant you can use besides tacrolimus:
» pimecrolimus (sold as Elidel). I use pimecrolimus all the time…it’s great
» for a variety of skin problems (dermatitis, excema, etc.) It comes in a
» cream form, it’s light, absorbs quickly, and leaves no residue. Like
» tacrolimus, pimecrolimus is a calcineurin inhibitor that inhibits T-cell
» activation, thus producing immune suppression. Just another option to
» tacrolimus ointment, that’s all.
»
» Oral cyclosporine is used by some docs short-term to treat bad cases of
» posion ivy. It’s also been used for alopecia areata. It’s probably OK for a
» couple days use, provided you have no concurrent infection.
»
» http://dermatology.cdlib.org/rxderm-archives/cyclosporin-for-contact-derm
»
» I can’t believe I didn’t do more tests when I took gefitinib. If I was
» going to go through the hassle of taking it orally, I should have done a
» lot more experimenting. It’s something I will do if I try this again. Like
» you suggested, Benji, I should have made like four coin-sized wounds: use
» TCA for one wound, sandpaper for the other, sandpaper plus pimecrolimus for
» another, and depilation, sandpaper, and pimecrolimus for the fourth wound.
» Of course, EGF would also be inhibited after N days.
»
» I will post an update on my last experiment sometime in the next week or
» two.

TAGOHL:

Any idea how you could measure the depth of a wound this shallow? Do you recall what the patent and/or Nature study called for regarding wound depth?


#13

» » I have an idea…the wounds in the mice experiments in
» Nature
» » were 1-2 centimeters in diameter.
» »
» » One could make 4-5 different wounds and try four or five different
» » approaches all at once, and get the various combos “tried” at the same
» » time.
»
» It’s funny you mentioned coins as a reference for wound sizes. I thought
» of the same thing, and I actually measured out some coins with a ruler. I
» think even a dime might suffice (a dime is about 1.8 cm…a quarter is
» about 2.5 cm). Which is to say, take a coin out of your pocket, put it
» against your skin, and trace the wound area. You don’t need it to be
» perfectly round, either, at least according to the wounds in the Nature
» study, which were very irregular in shape.
»
» Random stuff:
»
» There’s another topical immunosupressant you can use besides tacrolimus:
» pimecrolimus (sold as Elidel). I use pimecrolimus all the time…it’s great
» for a variety of skin problems (dermatitis, excema, etc.) It comes in a
» cream form, it’s light, absorbs quickly, and leaves no residue. Like
» tacrolimus, pimecrolimus is a calcineurin inhibitor that inhibits T-cell
» activation, thus producing immune suppression. Just another option to
» tacrolimus ointment, that’s all.
»
» Oral cyclosporine is used by some docs short-term to treat bad cases of
» posion ivy. It’s also been used for alopecia areata. It’s probably OK for a
» couple days use, provided you have no concurrent infection.
»
» http://dermatology.cdlib.org/rxderm-archives/cyclosporin-for-contact-derm
»
» I can’t believe I didn’t do more tests when I took gefitinib. If I was
» going to go through the hassle of taking it orally, I should have done a
» lot more experimenting. It’s something I will do if I try this again. Like
» you suggested, Benji, I should have made like four coin-sized wounds: use
» TCA for one wound, sandpaper for the other, sandpaper plus pimecrolimus for
» another, and depilation, sandpaper, and pimecrolimus for the fourth wound.
» Of course, EGF would also be inhibited after N days.
»
» I will post an update on my last experiment sometime in the next week or
» two.

TAGOHL,

That is very interesting info about the pinecromilus. I might look into that for myself.

I have found an article that stated that the average reepilithialization time for lasers was 7 days, and for CO2 lasers was 12 days. There are some very interesting photos in this article (PDF), http://archfaci.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/1/2/112.pdf
Dermabrasion sure does regenerate the skin.

The shortest time Ive found in any article for human skin to reepilithialize completly was 4.6 days with cold dressings applied directly after the wounding event.

In other words, I think one would be OK waiting until about day 5 until doing the EGF antagonist for certain with sand paper. The keratinocytes apparently have to “crawl” over the wound from the outside at first and they are on the surface of the skin, their stem cells doing the “rebuilding”. The patent said that EDIHN can be occuring while the scabs are still attatched with abrasion as the disruption method.

By what you wrote, you seem to be in favor of T-cell suppression from the wound date onwards. Im leaning that way myself because inflammation of the wound is the first thing the body does after abrasion from what Ive read. Ive read before (Harold at HLT) that in neo-natal mice, hair follicles will not form if inflammation is present. I know this is before re-epilithialization, but I figure why take a chance…

Ive got some cyclo. However Im not crazy about the thought of being on it for roughly 8 days (I reason that one would get a good day’s T-cell suppression after getting off it on day 8 from the amount of it in the bloodstream to carry them over for day 9. Getfitinib would only probably have to be taken from day 5 through 8 and I imagine I’d also get a carryover to the ninth day with that also. I suppose it depends on what the skin looks like. I do not intend to allow water to hit any of the abraded areas or soap. I’ll keep it as close to the vest as possible this time, because its going to be the last time I’ll try it unless somebody hits a home run doing something else (which I’d emulate). I use Prox-N, which are copper peptides, so my skin has healed pretty darn quickly.


#14

this article is not in google
copy paste any portion of the page several sentences and google cannot find it


#15

» this article is not in google
» copy paste any portion of the page several sentences and google cannot
» find it

I found the original article several months ago and posted it here along with the pics. I even contacted the doctor who treated this patient and asked him several questions (posted those too).


#16

» this article is not in google
» copy paste any portion of the page several sentences and google cannot
» find it

You can’t rely on google to find everything and anything on the internet because at present it doesn’t have every single page indexed.


#17

Benji, your whole description in the original post here is basically what I intend to do next. It has taken me a while to decide things but this is where I’m leaning.

I think this is the next thing that MUST be ruled out if we’re to get any farther with this home experimenting. Either it works, or else we’re stuck waiting several years for Folica’s next publicized results. We would have no other near-term options at that point besides basically trail/error-ing to figure out a way to improve on Baccy’s early results.

I’m undecided about the EGF-R method so far. The idea of using oral Leflunomide again actually comes to mind. Unlike your oral Genfilitib try, it had virtually no real side effects last time for me. So I would be willing to hit the Arava orally, heavily-dosed, for a good long window next time.

(I don’t think a longer period on EGF-Rs should have much potential hurt things a whole lot. The cancer patients didn’t start & stop the Genfilitib like this AT ALL, did they? Wasn’t it just continued usage for months, and that guy still got that kind of serious growth?)

But I still might just do the Genfilitib orally though. Maybe I could stand it for 3 or 4 days at most.