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Follica home experiment update


#1

So far, I’ve made two attempts at creating new hair follicles. I used chemical peels for abrasion, and oral gefitinib for EGF inhibition. Details are below.

Background: Late 30s male, been on finasteride/dutasteride for around 11 years. I’ve managed to maintain almost all of my hair, but the hairline has gone back ever so slightly. I am a 1-ish on the Norwood scale. I can post pics if that would help.

Attempt 1:

About 6 weeks ago, I used a 30% TCA peel on my original hairline. Since I am also losing eyebrow hair, I treated both eyebrows as well, but I used salicyclic acid (SA) for that instead of TCA. Since past experience with Scalpicin on my eyebrows showed that my brows peel fairly quick (quicker than than peeling would occur with TCA), I applied the SA to my brows several days after I applied the TCA to my hairline - the goal being that both the hairline and brows would start to peel at the same time.

Unfortunately, things didn’t turn out as planned. I got a very uneven peel at the hairline - some spots peeled well, others spots didn’t really peel at all. Also, my hairline started to peel before my eyebrows did, which means the windows would be different for both. Given that gefitinib is such a nasty drug, and that I planned to take it orally, I decided to abort the mission rather than get an imcomplete result, and thus have to take another round of gefitinib, which is something I really wanted to avoid. So, attempt 1 turned out to be a dry run. I just let everything heal, and I didn’t take any drugs.

Attempt 2:

On Thursday night, September 18th, I did another 30% TCA peel on my hairline. Two days later, I did a SA peel on my eyebrows. Peeling commenced the following Monday (22nd). Tuesday the peeling kicked up, and Wednesday I had a lot of peeling (it reached a maximum on this day). Peeling started to subside on Thursday, and Thursday morning is when I started gefitinib at 250mg/day. Thus, I waited about 6.5 days after wounding to start inhibiting EGF. The last of the peeling came off Friday, and a touch on Saturday. I took my last dose of gefitinib yesterday (Monday) – I used it for 5 days total. Due to the long half-life of gefitinib, I will probably end up with around 6 or 7 days of decent EGF inhibition. Now, I wait. Maybe by Thanksgiving I will know if I’ve achieved anything.

Notes:

I washed my hair with antibacterial shampoos every day throughout the experiment.

I used an antihistamine every day throughout the experiment (not by design, I am using an antihistamine for other reasons).

I used dutasteride every day throughout the experiment.

Gefitinib side-effects I had were: GI upset/pain. A sick-like feeling most of the days I took it. Dry, itchy skin. And most annoyingly, my eyes and eyelids freaked out – stinging, burning, itching, and some pain (I wear contact lenses, which I am sure exacerbated the problem). To my surprise, I had no acne or rash at all.

I am probably leaving out some details, but I will post them as I think of them.

As far as resuls…like I said, I wait.


#2

good luck…I finished to sandpaper my bald area, only using a sandpaper, and without thinking about applying nothing until if only cures… to understand better as the skin reacts on the sandpaper… and pain this fort, but controlable.


#3

» So far, I’ve made two attempts at creating new hair follicles. I used
» chemical peels for abrasion, and oral gefitinib for EGF inhibition. Details
» are below.
»
» Background: Late 30s male, been on finasteride/dutasteride for around 11
» years. I’ve managed to maintain almost all of my hair, but the hairline has
» gone back ever so slightly. I am a 1-ish on the Norwood scale. I can post
» pics if that would help.
»
» Attempt 1:
»
» About 6 weeks ago, I used a 30% TCA peel on my original hairline. Since I
» am also losing eyebrow hair, I treated both eyebrows as well, but I used
» salicyclic acid (SA) for that instead of TCA. Since past experience with
» Scalpicin on my eyebrows showed that my brows peel fairly quick (quicker
» than than peeling would occur with TCA), I applied the SA to my brows
» several days after I applied the TCA to my hairline - the goal being that
» both the hairline and brows would start to peel at the same time.
»
» Unfortunately, things didn’t turn out as planned. I got a very uneven peel
» at the hairline - some spots peeled well, others spots didn’t really peel
» at all. Also, my hairline started to peel before my eyebrows did, which
» means the windows would be different for both. Given that gefitinib is such
» a nasty drug, and that I planned to take it orally, I decided to abort the
» mission rather than get an imcomplete result, and thus have to take another
» round of gefitinib, which is something I really wanted to avoid. So,
» attempt 1 turned out to be a dry run. I just let everything heal, and I
» didn’t take any drugs.
»
» Attempt 2:
»
» On Thursday night, September 18th, I did another 30% TCA peel on my
» hairline. Two days later, I did a SA peel on my eyebrows. Peeling commenced
» the following Monday (22nd). Tuesday the peeling kicked up, and Wednesday I
» had a lot of peeling (it reached a maximum on this day). Peeling started to
» subside on Thursday, and Thursday morning is when I started gefitinib at
» 250mg/day. Thus, I waited about 6.5 days after wounding to start inhibiting
» EGF. The last of the peeling came off Friday, and a touch on Saturday. I
» took my last dose of gefitinib yesterday (Monday) – I used it for 5 days
» total. Due to the long half-life of gefitinib, I will probably end up with
» around 6 or 7 days of decent EGF inhibition. Now, I wait. Maybe by
» Thanksgiving I will know if I’ve achieved anything.
»
» Notes:
»
» I washed my hair with antibacterial shampoos every day throughout the
» experiment.
»
» I used an antihistamine every day throughout the experiment (not by
» design, I am using an antihistamine for other reasons).
»
» I used dutasteride every day throughout the experiment.
»
» Gefitinib side-effects I had were: GI upset/pain. A sick-like feeling most
» of the days I took it. Dry, itchy skin. And most annoyingly, my eyes and
» eyelids freaked out – stinging, burning, itching, and some pain (I wear
» contact lenses, which I am sure exacerbated the problem). To my surprise, I
» had no acne or rash at all.
»
» I am probably leaving out some details, but I will post them as I think of
» them.
»
» As far as resuls…like I said, I wait.

I’m not counting the antihistimine and Dut, it looks like you did the experiment in it’s simplist form first which I think is a good move – wound and getfitinib. I’m still a little surprised that you took getfitnib orally since you were the one who first posted those getfitnib induced acne pics. However, you weren’t on the meds for long. Good luck.


#4

I noticed you are washing your hair from day one. In my first experiment I washed my hair with nizoral. I think I made a mistake doing so especially during wounding. When you completed the chemical peel, did you get any on your hair and if so did the hair change color. I sand papered the first time but would like to try the chemical peel.


#5

» I’m not counting the antihistimine and Dut, it looks like you did the
» experiment in it’s simplist form first which I think is a good move –
» wound and getfitinib. I’m still a little surprised that you took getfitnib
» orally since you were the one who first posted those getfitnib induced acne
» pics. However, you weren’t on the meds for long. Good luck.

Thanks. To be honest, I had so much anxiety about using gefitinib that I dragged my feet for a few months before I got around to experimenting. I still have side-effects, but I feel better today than the past few days.


#6

» When you completed the chemical peel, did you get any on
» your hair and if so did the hair change color. I sand papered the first
» time but would like to try the chemical peel.

Yes, I got it in my hair, and no, it didn’t change the color.


#7

» So far, I’ve made two attempts at creating new hair follicles. I used
» chemical peels for abrasion, and oral gefitinib for EGF inhibition. Details
» are below.
»
» Background: Late 30s male, been on finasteride/dutasteride for around 11
» years. I’ve managed to maintain almost all of my hair, but the hairline has
» gone back ever so slightly. I am a 1-ish on the Norwood scale. I can post
» pics if that would help.
»
» Attempt 1:
»
» About 6 weeks ago, I used a 30% TCA peel on my original hairline. Since I
» am also losing eyebrow hair, I treated both eyebrows as well, but I used
» salicyclic acid (SA) for that instead of TCA. Since past experience with
» Scalpicin on my eyebrows showed that my brows peel fairly quick (quicker
» than than peeling would occur with TCA), I applied the SA to my brows
» several days after I applied the TCA to my hairline - the goal being that
» both the hairline and brows would start to peel at the same time.
»
» Unfortunately, things didn’t turn out as planned. I got a very uneven peel
» at the hairline - some spots peeled well, others spots didn’t really peel
» at all. Also, my hairline started to peel before my eyebrows did, which
» means the windows would be different for both. Given that gefitinib is such
» a nasty drug, and that I planned to take it orally, I decided to abort the
» mission rather than get an imcomplete result, and thus have to take another
» round of gefitinib, which is something I really wanted to avoid. So,
» attempt 1 turned out to be a dry run. I just let everything heal, and I
» didn’t take any drugs.
»
» Attempt 2:
»
» On Thursday night, September 18th, I did another 30% TCA peel on my
» hairline. Two days later, I did a SA peel on my eyebrows. Peeling commenced
» the following Monday (22nd). Tuesday the peeling kicked up, and Wednesday I
» had a lot of peeling (it reached a maximum on this day). Peeling started to
» subside on Thursday, and Thursday morning is when I started gefitinib at
» 250mg/day. Thus, I waited about 6.5 days after wounding to start inhibiting
» EGF. The last of the peeling came off Friday, and a touch on Saturday. I
» took my last dose of gefitinib yesterday (Monday) – I used it for 5 days
» total. Due to the long half-life of gefitinib, I will probably end up with
» around 6 or 7 days of decent EGF inhibition. Now, I wait. Maybe by
» Thanksgiving I will know if I’ve achieved anything.
»
» Notes:
»
» I washed my hair with antibacterial shampoos every day throughout the
» experiment.
»
» I used an antihistamine every day throughout the experiment (not by
» design, I am using an antihistamine for other reasons).
»
» I used dutasteride every day throughout the experiment.
»
» Gefitinib side-effects I had were: GI upset/pain. A sick-like feeling most
» of the days I took it. Dry, itchy skin. And most annoyingly, my eyes and
» eyelids freaked out – stinging, burning, itching, and some pain (I wear
» contact lenses, which I am sure exacerbated the problem). To my surprise, I
» had no acne or rash at all.
»
» I am probably leaving out some details, but I will post them as I think of
» them.
»
» As far as resuls…like I said, I wait.

1-ish? Are you fu¢|<ing nuts?


#8

»
» Background: Late 30s male, been on finasteride/dutasteride for around 11
» years. That makes you almost a mirror image of me. I am a NW 3 though. The finas didn’t help my temples, but I have the rest of my hair pretty much. » Attempt 1:
»
»
»
»
» Attempt 2:
»
» On Thursday night, September 18th, I did another 30% TCA peel on my
» hairline. Two days later, I did a SA peel on my eyebrows. Peeling commenced
» the following Monday (22nd). Tuesday the peeling kicked up, and Wednesday I
» had a lot of peeling (it reached a maximum on this day). Peeling started to
» subside on Thursday, and Thursday morning is when I started gefitinib at
» 250mg/day. Thus, I waited about 6.5 days after wounding to start inhibiting
» EGF. The last of the peeling came off Friday, and a touch on Saturday. I
» took my last dose of gefitinib yesterday (Monday) – I used it for 5 days
» total. Due to the long half-life of gefitinib, I will probably end up with
» around 6 or 7 days of decent EGF inhibition. Now, I wait. Maybe by
» Thanksgiving I will know if I’ve achieved anything. Maybe by mid-late October I’ll know if I had anything at all, but I have a dreary feeling that severe minox “burn” probably screwed everything up. I have a feeling I got nada personally. I’d like to be wrong about that though. I sandpapered after the TCA peel. I left the peel in for about five and a half minutes. There was no blood, but I cant tell if I went too deep or not. I do know that I had a wonderful shiny layer or funny looking scalp about four days post wounding, which seemed to correspond with what the researchers were aiming for»
» Notes:
»
» I washed my hair with antibacterial shampoos every day throughout the
» experiment. I waited two and a half days before washing at least post wounding. Then I used Nizoral. I think I skipped one more day and used T-Sal and Nizoral again. »

» I used an antihistamine every day throughout the experiment (not by
» design, I am using an antihistamine for other reasons). I used Claritin and Ibuprofen a great deal in the experiment. Anti-inflammatories and anti-histamines are in the patent. I figured they could only help.
»
» I used dutasteride every day throughout the experiment. Me too»

» Gefitinib side-effects I had were: GI upset/pain. A sick-like feeling most
» of the days I took it. Dry, itchy skin. And most annoyingly, my eyes and
» eyelids freaked out – stinging, burning, itching, and some pain (I wear
» contact lenses, which I am sure exacerbated the problem). To my surprise, I
» had no acne or rash at all. I had everything you did plus a blister or ulcer on the inside of my mouth (that is also a side effect of getfitinib as I looked it up) and some pretty terrible acne—even on my damned back and shoulders and especially my forehead and nose, and some awful black watery diarreaha . Hyperkeratinization is supposedly caused by EGF inhibitors and are a ‘ground zero’ for many dermatological malfeasances and it manifested itself in a lot of inflammed acne and “whiteheads” on me personally. I haven’t had any of that since I was a teenager and I never had it anywhere near that bad then. That was the dryest my skin has ever felt. Cancer drugs truly are nasty things.»

» I am probably leaving out some details, but I will post them as I think of
» them.
»
» As far as resuls…like I said, I wait. I hope you hit a home run TAGOHL, but I have a sinking feeling about my own dig at it. Im all thumbs at a great many things of this nature. I do know one thing, getfitinib sucks. That was an icky feeling I had on that medication. I felt tired, weak and sore the whole time on that stuff.

If I run another experiment, it might be on a shoulder or some other place small with getfitinib and cyclo dissolved in cetaphil cream. That way I wont be so invested in its success personally.


#9

Thanks for sharing the info! I think posting this type of info/updates about home experiments is vital to our efforts to find an efficient Follica DYI method.

» I’ve managed to maintain almost all of my hair, but the hairline has
» gone back ever so slightly.

Then we are in a similar situation. I still have most of my hair, but its thinning and receding.

I am about to order some TCA and start experimenting a little. It would be valuable to find a way of wounding that impacts existing hair as little as possible in the process.

» …I used a 30% TCA peel on my original hairline.

» On Thursday night, September 18th, I did another 30% TCA peel on my
» hairline.

What is your experience with the TCA peel regarding shedding? Did you lose any hair in the treated area as a result of the TCA? If so, how much of it? All? Most? Some?

Good look btw!

/p


#10

» Maybe by mid-late October I’ll know if I had anything at all, but I have a
» dreary feeling that severe minox “burn” probably screwed everything up. I
» have a feeling I got nada personally.

Hopefully, you’ll get something. Did you scab at all?

» I waited two and a half days before washing at
» least post wounding. Then I used Nizoral. I think I skipped one more day
» and used T-Sal and Nizoral again.

Just a note on why I shampooed. Unless I use medicated shampoos daily, I get terrible seb derm, pimples, itching, etc. on my scalp. It’s been this way for years. I figured that if I’m trying to create new hair follicles, I should probably not have an inflamed, irritated scalp. So, in order to keep my immune system from flaming up my scalp during the experiment, I had to use antibacterial shampoos to keep the inflammation at bay. I realize this adds another variable, but it was sort of pick your poison.

» and some pretty terrible acne—even on my damned back and shoulders and
» especially my forehead and nose, and some awful black watery diarreaha .

It sounds like you are very sensitive to EGFR inhibitors. If I recall correctly, there is a correlation between the severity of acne/rash and how well these drugs treat cancer. That is, those who develop significant acne on these drugs have greater tumor regression than those who get little or no acne.

The fact that you got acne may be a sign you got very good EGF suppression in the skin, and hence maybe this would lead to better hair follicle creation.


#11

» I am about to order some TCA and start experimenting a little. It would be
» valuable to find a way of wounding that impacts existing hair as little as
» possible in the process.

Yep, that’s why I chose a peel.

» What is your experience with the TCA peel regarding shedding? Did you lose
» any hair in the treated area as a result of the TCA?

None that I can tell. And the existing hairs at the hairline have grown since I did the peel.


#12

»
» None that I can tell. And the existing hairs at the hairline have grown
» since I did the peel.

Brilliant! Cheers!

/p


#13

» » I’ve managed to maintain almost all of my hair, but the hairline has
» » gone back ever so slightly.
»
» Then we are in a similar situation. I still have most of my hair, but its
» thinning and receding.
»

Just want to make sure to suggest you guys are using or considering propecia. It’s a pretty commonly prescribed by doctors nowadays, and costs between $1-$2 a day depending on where you buy it.

I’ve heard a lot of fears about side effects, but I’ve also read studies where pretty much the same incidence level of side effects were reported by placebo users. Personally, I’ve not noticed any bad side effects (just the opposite seems to be the case). I don’t think there is any known good effect of DHT in humans after puberty, and I understand that inhibiting it (I think propecia does this by about 70%) actually slightly increases testosterone levels (for those who are concerned about that).

IMHO, if you are not currently using it and are willing to do so, it’s probably a really worthwhile effort.


#14

» Just want to make sure to suggest you guys are using or considering
» propecia.

Thanks for the tip! I have been on Propecia for a few years and so has TAGOHL apparently:

» Late 30s male, been on finasteride/dutasteride for around 11 years

/p


#15

» » I am about to order some TCA and start experimenting a little. It would
» be
» » valuable to find a way of wounding that impacts existing hair as little
» as
» » possible in the process.
»
» Yep, that’s why I chose a peel.
»
» » What is your experience with the TCA peel regarding shedding? Did you
» lose
» » any hair in the treated area as a result of the TCA?
»
» None that I can tell. And the existing hairs at the hairline have grown
» since I did the peel.

I’m a bit unclear, in you/Baccy/Benji’s experiments, are you guys inhibiting EGF? Isn’t that the growth factor responsible for the development of the skin? Are you also inhibiting wnt? I’m new to this forum.


#16

» I’m a bit unclear, in you/Baccy/Benji’s experiments, are you guys
» inhibiting EGF? Isn’t that the growth factor responsible for the
» development of the skin? Are you also inhibiting wnt? I’m new to this
» forum.

Hopefully someone will correct me or clarify if I am wrong or incomplete:

In my limited understanding, in Baccy’s recent experiment which showed promising results, he was attempting to inhibit egfr as one effect of his topical treatment. He was doing this mainly with milk-thistle extract (and with tannic acid, I believe, in his current attempt). I believe Benji may be considering using a topical formulation of getfitinib for that purpose.

I’ve done a small experiment including milk-thistle extract; it’s too early to tell what the final results will be (about 5 weeks in at this point) but there are some (although not anywhere near ideal) results.

I think these substances are actually inhibiting the EGF receptor, as opposed to the pathways which produce EGF itself. I believe the idea is to influence the differentiation of adult stem cells which are produced in the healing process so that they will be more likely to result in the formation of a follicle rather than epidermal tissue.

Exactly where these stem cells are supposed to be coming from I haven’t picked up on for sure at this point. Some of the literature I’ve read seems to indicate that they are coming from other follicles. There has also been some indication that pre-depilation may be enhancing the production of these and that it can therefore enhance the overall effectiveness of the method.

Also, the promotion of WNT is discussed (I think) as a method of improving the morphology of follicles which might be formed as a result of the method. There also appears to be some discussion of whether inhibiting WNT early on may be beneficial, as well as what the appropriate timing of treatments and possible pre-treatments would be prior to wounding.

that’s a good summary of what I think I know, hopefully someone will correct errors, extend, or provide further interesting info or speculation…


#17

» .
»
» Hopefully, you’ll get something. Did you scab at all?
»
» »Yes, deep in the temples. I did a little abrasion in a couple of spots the day after the TCA peel because I was worried it didn’t go deep enough. It probably did go deep enough, but it (of course I know now) takes a few days for the skin to peel off.

I have a feeling I probably started the getfitinib 3 or even 4 days too soon with the woudning I did. I was on getfitinib for 7 days and probably had a good 8 days of egf-inhibition beacause of the half life of the drug.

Its been about two weeks since my experiment, so if I had anything, I’d expect to see some hairs poking through by about Nov. 1…

TAGHOL, if your experiment didn’t work and no hair pops up, and you elected to try it one more time, is there anything else you might do different next round?


#18

» TAGHOL, if your experiment didn’t work and no hair pops up, and you
» elected to try it one more time, is there anything else you might do
» different next round?

  1. I’d make the hairline wound a little bigger in height. The width - the length of my hairline - was fine, but the height was somewhat narrow. I have a feeling wound size is going to turn out to be important when all is said and done.

  2. I’d try to eliminate variables. Namely, the antihistamine and the shampooing. I’m not sure how practical that is, though.

  3. Research wounding a little more. Specifically as it pertains to re-epithelialization.


#19

» » TAGHOL, if your experiment didn’t work and no hair pops up, and you
» » elected to try it one more time, is there anything else you might do
» » different next round?
»
» 1) I’d make the hairline wound a little bigger in height. The width - the
» length of my hairline - was fine, but the height was somewhat narrow. I
» have a feeling wound size is going to turn out to be important when all is
» said and done.
»
» 2) I’d try to eliminate variables. Namely, the antihistamine and the
» shampooing. I’m not sure how practical that is, though.
»
» 3) Research wounding a little more. Specifically as it pertains to
» re-epithelialization.

What about wound depth, are you sure you are wounding deep enough?

There was some discusion before about just the stratum corneum layer of the epidermis (the outer most layer that consist mainly of dead skin cells) needing to be disrupted.
The stratum corneum is relativley thick compared to the other 5 or so layers of the epidermis.
The patents say just “epidermal disruption” but when discussing the process in articles “gentle wounding” is mentioned so I’m unsure as to how deep would be nescesary?
I think depth could be an important factor, to deep and you could cause undesirable effects like scarring. To shallow and it may not be enough to get results.
I don’t recall wound depth being mentioned in any of the patents, is this correct?
I seem to recall wound size being mentioned, to my understanding the wound had to be at a certain diamiter or above?