Facial v/s scalp donor hair

»You state that body hair, from any source, is no comparison to scalp
» hair. Which, of course, is the point I’m trying to make. Will it cover the
» skin if enough is transplanted? Yes. Will it look cosmetically beneficial?
» Better than a $15 hat? Well that’s what I question. In rare cases it
» might, emphasis on MIGHT. Will facial hair look any different on the head
» than it does on the face? Most likely not. I’ll just say this and then
» I’m done.
»
» In my opinion. Acceptance of your circumstance is a reasonable, and
» likely, preferable, alternative to facial hair transplants.

You haven’t the faintest idea what you are talking about.Your thoughts & views don’t reflect your username & I wonder what your real motives are for being here.
Have you ever tried wearing a $15 hat for 10 years day & night ?
As a victim of htp butchery I find your comments utterly stupid to the point of highly insulting.
Heliboy,thankyou for bringing a realistic,human touch to this post.

“You don’t understand what I am saying.I mocked them for not helping repair patients with no money.However,many repair patients with deep pockets have had their lives restored by BHT,that is a fact !” I think Scarred1 understands. I also understand what he means about this being desperate in that leads to these repair sessions. I know a lot of guy’s from the 90’s that got Ht and did not even really need it and what happens? They need repair bad plugs removed bad scarring. And as far as docs doing repair. There are some and they do it pro -bono they just do not advertise it all over the net. So I agree. What is the problem with wanting to see if something works before you buy into it?

It all depends on how badly you have been scarred & how severely it has affected your life & your sanity.For someone like me,I would be willing to transplant hairs of a dogs ass as long as it grew & covered my scar.
If someone who is scarred is going to be picky in how transplanted facial hairs will look & grow in dead skin then he has issues far worse then me & I am a self confessed basket case.
These Indian docs that are doing Facial HTP are at least TRYING to rectify a past mistake with the little donor hair resources they have.It’s better then doing nothing but talk like some of the other Docs here.

JonnyE,
I do not want to envelope this thread with the extent of my scar repair work but the scar repair is worth mentioning in relation to the role of beard hair . As I mentioned before beard hair /facial hair seems to be exceptionally suitable for scar repair work possibly even moreso than scalp hair . I am speculating on aspects of this because I havent experienced it at this point. When I was undergoing my scar repair procedures beard/facial hair wasnt being utilized to the extent that it is now. I am seriously considering making a single pass through my scars with beard hair in the future when I am able to do it . I am not concerned of the risk that keep being mentioned as scarring is not a concern for me after all the body hair grafts I have had extracted with exceptional /quick healing .

I updated a few pics tonight on my website to show the left side scar work to this point after 2 passes through it in comparison to what I started with . http://www.myhairtransformation.com/myhairrestoration_009.htm

I am very pleased . I keep my hair cut very short now because it is more comfortable to me . Body hair in large numbers for a strip scar can help produce a fine /camoflauge/blending look and I hope this can be improved further with the thicker/more coarse beard hair .

17,000 Body Hair Grafts By Dr Umar
www.myhairtransformation.com

» I updated a few pics tonight on my website to show the left side scar work
» to this point after 2 passes through it in comparison to what I started
» with . I am very pleased . I keep my hair cut very short now because it
» is more comfortable to me . Body hair in large numbers for a strip scar
» can help produce a fine /camoflauge/blending look and I hope this can be
» improved further with the thicker/more coarse beard hair .

Heliboy, how are you doing? As I said above, I used facial hair in my scar and it grows and is hearty enough to grow in stubborn scar tissue and provides excellent coverage. I think mixed in amongst scalp and body hair it would not be discernable. Even less so if the hair is kept short. The pictures we see above that show differences in caliber are magnified greatly and that is not what the human eye would see.

I will mention two interesting cases. One guy at Dr A’s clinic who I can’t recall the name was using beard hair on top of his scalp and to replenish FUE “dots” from another clinic. This guy kept his hair cut extremely short and it looked truly amazing (Dr A, V, Ruby help??).

The other one is Endhairpiece at Dr Umar’s clinic where he did 3,700 grafts of facial hair. I would wager he will get great coverage from the beard hair. This is the largest that I have heard of to date.

Say all the negative stuff you want about facial hair and body hair. We all know the situation for a true NW6 and you choose your own option.

1st Option - use only scalp hair and get roughly 1/3 to 1/2 coverage
2nd Option - use scalp and body hair and get almost total coverage
3rd Opotion - use scalp, body hair and facial hair and get total coverage, but might need to wear hair short
4th Option - live life (if you can call it that) under a hat for rest of your life
5th Option - accept your situation

To me the 2nd and 3rd options seem best.

» I will mention two interesting cases. One guy at Dr A’s clinic who I
» can’t recall the name was using beard hair on top of his scalp and to
» replenish FUE “dots” from another clinic. This guy kept his hair cut
» extremely short and it looked truly amazing (Dr A, V, Ruby help??).

Dear Checkingin,
I think you are talking of fueoptions.
Yes, he has very little robust body hair and his scalp donor is quite thinned from his previous work at other clinics.

His details are available at http://hairsite.com/serendipity/authors/60-fueoptions.
He, incidentally, also happens to be the first patient to use facial hair grafts (extracted by fue).

You are right about the picture. It is zoomed in to show the difference in calibre among the different types of donor hair.

In day to day life, as a patient told me today, its not noticeable. He had come 6 months after his BHT session (a smaller one as he wanted to see the results and healing first), in a bald area.
Facial/beard hair grow longer than any transplanted body hair, have a thicker calibre and more shine/lustre, have a longer growth cycle, but to the normal eye if they are used mixed with other hair, they do not stand out. I will post this patient’s pictures shortly.

Regards,
Dr. A

» Say all the negative stuff you want about facial hair and body hair. We
» all know the situation for a true NW6 and you choose your own option.
»
» 1st Option - use only scalp hair and get roughly 1/3 to 1/2 coverage
» 2nd Option - use scalp and body hair and get almost total coverage
» 3rd Opotion - use scalp, body hair and facial hair and get total
» coverage, but might need to wear hair short
» 4th Option - live life (if you can call it that) under a hat for rest of
» your life
» 5th Option - accept your situation
»
» To me the 2nd and 3rd options seem best.

Checkingin,
I could not have said it better myself regarding your 5 Options. There are those on the forums that will live the rest of their life contemplating and judging others for what they did and why they did it . The past couple of years has provided everyone with an opportunity to see what the role of body hair is (either alone/mixed with scalp hair/scar repair etc) . It has become much more clear now regarding the quantities needed and expectations going into a procedure . Even now for scar coverage I believe we are seeing that scalp and potentially beard hair will offer more efficient coverage/blending of scars than other body hair which often times offers a more finer hair . Time will tell . Alot has to do with the extent of the scars and how much coverage is desired to provide coverage/blending. A pencil thin scar is a whole different world than streched scars 1/2 inch wide.

I appreciate the information on your personal experience with the facial/beard hair in your scars . There is no reason it should not grow/ respond like other body hair and I’m looking forward to seeing the large scale cases done recently to display its effectiveness in coverage .It will also provide a detailed and practical understanding of what its role/priority will be in terms of which body hair an individual will use first to provide maximum coverage .

17,000 Body Hair Grafts by Dr Umar
www.myhairtransformation.com

Interesting quote from the patient Fue options."Once again i must stress i would not advocate the use of these hairs on virgin scalp or if you want to grow your hair long…they must be mixed around 1 beard to 3 or 4 head or 9 or 10 body hair. So for a repair and he is keeping his hair short these hairs might be ok. Still have not seen where he is putting them on his head. And a big point no one has mentioned. What happens if and when some of your regular hair falls out due to mpb? Then you are stuck with these grafts. At least with head donor and maybe certain select bh. You will bald naturally. Ohh well. As I said before you want to put them in to break up the scar like to see some of these results.

The only thing different is in the extraction methods. There is some valid points in this paper pros and cons and if the potential buyer is aware then to each is own. And on another note this is the same doctor that planted the beard hair and later the patient had to get it removed. Just throwing out some research on the subject. I wil post paper in next post.

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Hair Transplantation Utilising Beard Hair

from a paper by: Dr Mike Beehner New York USA

Abstract

There are occasions when insufficient suitable donor scalp hair is available, and other sources of hair suply are sought. It is the author’s contention that beard hair is the best source of such hair, if the density is sufficient, the angle of the jaw is protuberant enough, and the patient is willing to accept a thin scar in this region.

Introduction

In transplanting men with very poor donor areas or those with depleted donor areas from past surgeries, there sometimes is the need to obtain hair from another site. During the past three years, we have performed donor harvesting from the beard on four occasions. A number of criteria should be present before performing such a procedure, and these will be reviewed.

Materials and Methods

In each of the four sessions in which we harvested beard hair, some scalp hair was also harvested. The shape of the beard donor area is a rounded “V” shape with each end tapered. Care is taken that the excised tissue is located well under the edge of the jaw margin, so that the visibility of the scar will be minimised as much as possible. Each of the four donor specimens averaged around 10 cm in length and 1.7 cm in width. The tissue was dissected under stereoscopic microscopic vision (10x) and all the follicular units were comprised of one hair apiece. They were notably coarser than their counterpart scalp hairs harvested from the sane patient.

It is very important that the patient should not shave for two days prior to the surgery, so that the angle of the hair’s exit from the skin can be seen clearly. For the one patient who had a beard we shaved the hairs at the donor area to 2-3 mm. in height. A “ring block” local anaesthetic is administered along a line drawn approximately 1-2 cm. outside the proposed donor tissue to be excised. The dermis and subcutaneous layers are then tumesced with saline 1:100,000 epinephrine solution until the tissues are firm. This maximises transection of hairs during excision of the donor tissue. Both edges of the wound are then undermined 1-2 cm from the wound edge. This undermining allows the skin levels to ‘slide’ towards one another and facilitates the closure. The dermis is first brought together with several interrupted, inverted 3-0 Vicryl sutures, and then the skin is closed with a running 4-0 Prolene suture.

Discussion

Scalp hair is always the preferred source for donor hair in androgenetic alopecia transplantation. However, if more hair is needed, and there is no more available scalp donor hair, it is the author’s opinion that, for most such patients, beard hair represents the next best alternative. The only exception may be in the instance of moustache restoration, such as after burns, in which the coarseness of beard hair may be preferable to scalp hair in more exactly duplicating the calibre and texture of moustache hair.

The advantages for using beard hair over other alternative sites (chest, axilla, pubic area etc.) are as follows:

a) In many men there is reasonably good density of hair in the beard area under the chin.
b) Beard hair can grow to a length of several centimetres.
c) In most cases if the surgery is performed skilfully, the resultant scar can be hidden fairly well.
d) There are no apocrine glands associated with these hairs, as there may be in the axilla and groin, which could possibly give off undesirable secretions or odour.

The disadvantages for using beard hair in scalp hair restoration are as follows:

a) Beard hair is much coarser than scalp hair and can therefore only be placed within the central regions of the scalp being transplanted.
b) There is a resultant scar under the chin, which can only be completely hidden if the man is committed to wearing a beard for life.
c) Adding beard harvesting to scalp donor harvesting in the same session is time consuming and adds at least 1-2 hours to the session.

Summary

There are certain men for whom harvesting donor hair from the bears can help the hair transplant surgeon. The following criteria should probably be met before doing this on an individual patient:

  1. Sufficient scalp donor hair does not exist to meet the goals of the patient and surgeon.
  2. The patient accepts the fact that he will have a scar under his chin after the surgery.
  3. The density of the hair on the underside the chin/jaw is sufficient to warrant harvesting hair there.
  4. The shape and contour of the patient’s jaw is such that the resultant scar will be reasonably blocked out from most visual angles.
  5. The difference between the patient’s scalp hair and the beard hair is not so disparate that the beard hair will “stick out like a sore thumb” after it is placed on the scalp.

© 2002 ESHRS

Orthodox Hair Sciences & Hair Specialisms - The Trichological Society

Take note of his stated disadvantages in the paper that Duck posted : This is where the differences appear regarding physician extraction/implantation methods and also patient expectations. What are stated as disadvantages in the paper are actually weaknesses on part of the M.D for not being able to peform the procedure without resulting scarring. That weakness is not one which is universal because we have seen beard hair extractions taken and within the same day barely visible signs of extraction. This is where ‘paper’ logic falls behind practical standards .

(Following excerpt taken from previous research post by Duck)

The disadvantages for using beard hair in scalp hair restoration are as follows:

a) Beard hair is much coarser than scalp hair and can therefore only be placed within the central regions of the scalp being transplanted.
b) There is a resultant scar under the chin, which can only be completely hidden if the man is committed to wearing a beard for life.
c) Adding beard harvesting to scalp donor harvesting in the same session is time consuming and adds at least 1-2 hours to the session.

Altering comments regarding the 'stated 'disadvantages:
1)a: The fact beard hair is much more coarse than scalp hair is actually an
advantage when utilized for that particular purpose - to add volume
coverage to a particular area .

2)b: We have seen many cases posted thus far disproving this ‘resultant
scar’ under the chin . This is not universal and only a result from an
M.D that is not well versed in extractions and appropriate
instrumentation for such a procedure.

3)c: Again stating time limit barriers can also be a limitation of a
particular M.D lacking expertise in the practice. Even stating the
case is true with the addition of 1-2 hours there is a potential
lifetime of benefit from the coverage gained by so little time
committement. I believe anyone would give up an extra 1-2 hours to
gain coverage .

I think the research paper shown should be seen for what it is -research’. Real world will prove or disprove its worthiness as it has already disproven a part of the ‘research’ conclusions .

17,000 Body Hair Grafts by Dr Umar
www.myhairtransformation.com

» Dear Checkingin,
» I think you are talking of fueoptions.
» Yes, he has very little robust body hair and his scalp donor is quite
» thinned from his previous work at other clinics.
»
» His details are available at
» http://hairsite.com/serendipity/authors/60-fueoptions.
» He, incidentally, also happens to be the first patient to use facial hair
» grafts (extracted by fue).

You are correct. IMHO, this guy looks perfect in the balding areas!! A lot of folks should be so lucky.

» There are occasions when insufficient suitable donor scalp hair is
» available, and other sources of hair suply are sought. It is the author’s
» contention that beard hair is the best source of such hair, if the density
» is sufficient, the angle of the jaw is protuberant enough, and the patient
» is willing to accept a thin scar in this region.

»
» Materials and Methods
»
» In each of the four sessions in which we harvested beard hair, some scalp
» hair was also harvested. The shape of the beard donor area is a rounded
» “V” shape with each end tapered. Care is taken that the excised tissue is
» located well under the edge of the jaw margin, so that the visibility of
» the scar will be minimised as much as possible. Each of the four donor
» specimens averaged around 10 cm in length and 1.7 cm in width. The tissue
» was dissected under stereoscopic microscopic vision (10x) and all the
» follicular units were comprised of one hair apiece. They were notably
» coarser than their counterpart scalp hairs harvested from the sane
» patient.

This guy is talking about actually taking a STRIP out of a guys face under the chin line. That is a huge difference from FUE of beard hair. Not sure why anyone would even consider such an approach. Techniques have advanced to such a level now where it is a viable consideration.

Bottom line, don’t do it if you don’t want to. You (and others) have the luxury of sitting tight and waiting to see certain folks results. You can then make the call based on your own situation. I don’t think there will be anything other than positive results if distributed randomly and mixed with scalp and body hair.

"This guy is talking about actually taking a STRIP out of a guys face under the chin line. That is a huge difference from FUE of beard hair. Not sure why anyone would even consider such an approach. Techniques have advanced to such a level now where it is a viable consideration. " I understand that that is what I stated in my first post. Extractions methods are different. My point of the post is not the extraction methods I did not write the paper. But certain aspects on how the recepient may look now or after as mbp might progress further. We need to look at all angles and not just how clean the chin looks after extractions. There is nothing out there really on beard hair transplants so it is good for us all to have as much info as possible. And I hope this doctor is still not performing this strip procedure on any more patients.

A patient known as “programmer” had beard hair transplanted to the scalp about 5 years ago.

He called us and stated that it felt like barbed wire on his head, and wanted us to remove every graft and replace it with body hair. He had many previous strips and the normal donor was severely depleted.

I was skeptical as to why he would travel from Europe to have this done. Although I had not transplanted beard hair before, I didn’t think it could be that bad.

When “programmer” arrived, we realised he was right. It did look and feel like barbed wire.

It took 2 days to remove, and another 2 days to replace with body hair from the lower back.

The end result was very good and he posted about 4 years ago.

But that experience was enough. Beard hair may work occasionally. But it may go wrong. It is a gamble.

And it has always been our policy to never place any patient in any potential danger.

Dr Ray Woods

Dr. Woods,
Did you remove all the beard hair from programmer. From my past readings, I thought a part were removed by Dr. Arvind. Still, Dr. A happens to be a proponent of FHT. This gets so confusing.

Theres a thread above http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/board_entry.php?id=5155&page=0&category=0&order=last_answer&descasc=DESC
Do you think this patient to be asuitable candidate for FHT? He seems to hardly have anything else.

» A patient known as “programmer” had beard hair transplanted to the scalp
» about 5 years ago.
»
» He called us and stated that it felt like barbed wire on his head, and
» wanted us to remove every graft and replace it with body hair. He had many
» previous strips and the normal donor was severely depleted.
»
» I was skeptical as to why he would travel from Europe to have this done.
» Although I had not transplanted beard hair before, I didn’t think it could
» be that bad.
»
» When “programmer” arrived, we realised he was right. It did look and feel
» like barbed wire.
»
»
» It took 2 days to remove, and another 2 days to replace with body hair
» from the lower back.
»
» The end result was very good and he posted about 4 years ago.
»
»
» But that experience was enough. Beard hair may work occasionally. But it
» may go wrong. It is a gamble.
»
» And it has always been our policy to never place any patient in any
» potential danger.
»
» Dr Ray Woods

» b) There is a resultant scar under the chin, which can only be completely
» hidden if the man is committed to wearing a beard for life.

But why? Why are doctors able to do BHT on other body parts with no scar except for the chin?

The scar under the chin was in reference to taking a strip .

I am certain that Dr Woods has previously mentioned that he was against the use of armpit & pubic hairs in BHT.Something about the wet glands in those areas??? I vaguely remember something like that but other docs use armpit & pubic hairs.
He may not have said those things,even though I am certain he has but it is terribly confusing. Who do you believe?

» A patient known as “programmer” had beard hair transplanted to the scalp
» about 5 years ago.
»
» He called us and stated that it felt like barbed wire on his head, and
» wanted us to remove every graft and replace it with body hair. He had many
» previous strips and the normal donor was severely depleted.
»
» I was skeptical as to why he would travel from Europe to have this done.
» Although I had not transplanted beard hair before, I didn’t think it could
» be that bad.
»
» When “programmer” arrived, we realised he was right. It did look and feel
» like barbed wire.
»
»
» It took 2 days to remove, and another 2 days to replace with body hair
» from the lower back.
»
» The end result was very good and he posted about 4 years ago.

Dr Woods, do you have pictures (before and after) from this procedure? Also, was the beard hair equally distributed over the scalp and mixed with scalp (and maybe body) hair OR clustered together in a small area. Also, what did the beard FUE consist of 1 hair, 2 hair, etc. Any details you could provide would be much appreciated. Thanks.
»
»
» But that experience was enough. Beard hair may work occasionally. But it
» may go wrong. It is a gamble.
»
» And it has always been our policy to never place any patient in any
» potential danger.
»
» Dr Ray Woods