Does higher testosterone leads to more hair loss?

Medications for hair loss
21

The situation with Dut and side effects would be very similar to Finasteride.

Fin and Dut are not the same drug at all in several other ways, but for side effect purposes Dut is basically just a stronger version of Fin. Both are causing DHT suppression by stopping the conversion from Test, and also causing the side effect of hormonal imbalances because of that (higher test & estrogens, etc.)

22

Considering the fact that DHT Type#2 is the main factor in hair loss, and dutasteride AND finasteride BOTH attack DHT Type#2…

will it be safe to say that if one were on 0.5mg dutasteride for quite a while and decided to drop to finasteride 1.25-2.5mg they will be able to hold on to whatever gains and/or maintenance they had from dutasteride? If not, what happens? because Fin also blocks type2 DHT. I can’t imagine a significant hairshed between the switch.

When one’s body becomes immune or tolerant to a certain drug/treatment after a few years, can a simple change be made to another drug of similar characteriitics? Or the body does not necesarily want a change, but a stronger drug/treatment?

If a stronger drug is required, then wouldnt it be wise for guys to start off with the basic hairloss treatments that work well for them before they jump the gun and use the most powerful stuff on the market? This way maintaing our hair may be possible for 15-20 yrs or so.

In other words,I sometimes question whether or not I should have started with finasteride rather than jumping to dutasteride. Because when my body becomes tolerant to dut and the dut loses its effectiveness, I really have nowhere else to look for better dht blockers. Same for what El duterino is using. I contemplate on his regim and would like to hop on as well. However I say to myself see how far you can go with minoxidil5%…then up to 15%…and when it wares off THEN I can use RU and flurodil as it is a change and further allowing me to maintain my hair for many more years.

» The situation with Dut and side effects would be very similar to
» Finasteride.
»
» Fin and Dut are not the same drug at all in several other ways, but for
» side effect purposes Dut is basically just a stronger version of Fin. Both
» are causing DHT suppression by stopping the conversion from Test, and also
» causing the side effect of hormonal imbalances because of that (higher test
» & estrogens, etc.)

23

» Considering the fact that DHT Type#2 is the main factor in hair loss, and
» dutasteride AND finasteride BOTH attack DHT Type#2…
»
» will it be safe to say that if one were on 0.5mg dutasteride for quite a
» while and decided to drop to finasteride 1.25-2.5mg they will be able to
» hold on to whatever gains and/or maintenance they had from dutasteride? If
» not, what happens? because Fin also blocks type2 DHT. I can’t imagine a
» significant hairshed between the switch.
»
» When one’s body becomes immune or tolerant to a certain drug/treatment
» after a few years, can a simple change be made to another drug of similar
» characteriitics? Or the body does not necesarily want a change, but a
» stronger drug/treatment?
»
» If a stronger drug is required, then wouldnt it be wise for guys to start
» off with the basic hairloss treatments that work well for them before they
» jump the gun and use the most powerful stuff on the market? This way
» maintaing our hair may be possible for 15-20 yrs or so.
»
» In other words,I sometimes question whether or not I should have started
» with finasteride rather than jumping to dutasteride. Because when my body
» becomes tolerant to dut and the dut loses its effectiveness, I really have
» nowhere else to look for better dht blockers. Same for what El duterino is
» using. I contemplate on his regim and would like to hop on as well. However
» I say to myself see how far you can go with minoxidil5%…then up to
» 15%…and when it wares off THEN I can use RU and flurodil as it is a
» change and further allowing me to maintain my hair for many more years.
»
»
»
»
» » The situation with Dut and side effects would be very similar to
» » Finasteride.
» »
» » Fin and Dut are not the same drug at all in several other ways, but for
» » side effect purposes Dut is basically just a stronger version of Fin.
» Both
» » are causing DHT suppression by stopping the conversion from Test, and
» also
» » causing the side effect of hormonal imbalances because of that (higher
» test
» » & estrogens, etc.)

24

Unfortunately a lot of that stuff you’re wondering doesn’t have a clear consistent answer. It’s more of a case-by-case scenario.

Honestly I think we are still missing decent-sized chunks of the story in regards to androgen fighting in general.

I have never been satisfied with any explanation I’ve ever heard for why many guys seem to hit some kind of wall with DHT drugs. Too many reports of sudden rapid losses of effectiveness after they’ve been on Fin/Dut for like 5-7 years. This pheomenon usually gets written off as guys just griping because they’ve finally dropped below their pre-meds baseline again, but I don’t buy that. The stories are too consistent and the story is always a rapid drop that sounds too significant to just be the gradual loss continuing.

And then there’s RU58841. If our current data about androgen fighting and the drug itself were accurate, we’d all be on this stuff and we’d be virtually halting our lifetime loss. Once again we’re left with a bunch of scattered excuses about bad batches of the drug, inconsistent topicals, etc. But that doesn’t satisfy me why we NEVER, EVER see cases of the kinds of dramatic improvements. This stuff + a systemic DHT pill seems to promise castration-like improvements, which is never bourne out in the real world. Instead there is usually a rapid dramatic improvement with the RU topical, and then within 1-2 years the benefits taper off again dramatically. Maybe all the initial benefits are not re-lost immediately, but at least the continued improvement/holding does not match the first year or two. Whereas even oral Fin/Dut can sometimes deliver for several years in a row before passing the peak with some men.

The bottom line is that castration kills the continued problem for real. But for a lot of guys with serious MPB problems (or at least they’re putting serious efforts into fighting it), NO AMOUNT of androgen fighting with anything else seems to be able to hold up for more than a few years before encountering a dramatic loss of effectiveness again (that is not very reversible with higher doses of the drugs). This is certainly not true for everyone, but it’s true way too often and too consistently for me not to believe there’s anything to it.

I think we’re missing some kind of biological “barrier” with all these androgen drugs. I think somehow the body/follicles are finding a “tolerance” to androgen deprivation with drugs that is unlike what happens with full castration.

The only guess I have is this: The ARs can sometimes mutate to beat androgen deprivation after several years when they treat prostate cancers. Maybe we’re running into some kind of a similar process.

I don’t have any decent ideas about the specifics of what is happening. (And this theory is not without its problems.) But the overall effect seems similar and I don’t have a better idea.

25

Thank you cal that was very informative.

I personally know a few people (not seen in many yrs) that were on finasteride for about 5-6 yrs before they noticed it wasnt working anymore. I recommended avodart at their own terms and risks back then. Today, about 2 yrs later they all claim it has either halted or improved their balding.

How can this be explained? I’m now assuming if they had been on dut initially and THEN lost its effectiveness, they would have no other drug to turn to other than trying to INCREASE their dut dosage to catch up to the increae of DHT production (their bodies wondrs why its low on dht and starts building more).

However, like other supplements such as for bodybuilding, there is no “moving to a stronger” supplement once the body learns to tolerate a specific drug. They either cycle the supplements (8 weeks on 4 weeks off) so the bother doesn’t become acustomed to the supplement or they simple change the supplement theyre on. Is there a correlation here? I don’t know, and it would be hard to find out as most people who either cure their baldness or have no balding to worry about anymore, eventually stop coming to these forums.

» Unfortunately a lot of that stuff you’re wondering doesn’t have a clear
» consistent answer. It’s more of a case-by-case scenario.
»
»
» Honestly I think we are still missing decent-sized chunks of the story in
» regards to androgen fighting in general.
»
»
» I have never been satisfied with any explanation I’ve ever heard for why
» many guys seem to hit some kind of wall with DHT drugs. Too many reports
» of sudden rapid losses of effectiveness after they’ve been on Fin/Dut for
» like 5-7 years. This pheomenon usually gets written off as guys just
» griping because they’ve finally dropped below their pre-meds baseline
» again, but I don’t buy that. The stories are too consistent and the story
» is always a rapid drop that sounds too significant to just be the gradual
» loss continuing.
»
» And then there’s RU58841. If our current data about androgen fighting and
» the drug itself were accurate, we’d all be on this stuff and we’d be
» virtually halting our lifetime loss. Once again we’re left with a bunch of
» scattered excuses about bad batches of the drug, inconsistent topicals,
» etc. But that doesn’t satisfy me why we NEVER, EVER see cases of the kinds
» of dramatic improvements. This stuff + a systemic DHT pill seems to
» promise castration-like improvements, which is never bourne out in the real
» world. Instead there is usually a rapid dramatic improvement with the RU
» topical, and then within 1-2 years the benefits taper off again
» dramatically. Maybe all the initial benefits are not re-lost immediately,
» but at least the continued improvement/holding does not match the first
» year or two. Whereas even oral Fin/Dut can sometimes deliver for several
» years in a row before passing the peak with some men.
»
»
»
» The bottom line is that castration kills the continued problem for real.
» But for a lot of guys with serious MPB problems (or at least they’re
» putting serious efforts into fighting it), NO AMOUNT of androgen fighting
» with anything else seems to be able to hold up for more than a few years
» before encountering a dramatic loss of effectiveness again (that is not
» very reversible with higher doses of the drugs). This is certainly not
» true for everyone, but it’s true way too often and too consistently for me
» not to believe there’s anything to it.
»
» I think we’re missing some kind of biological “barrier” with all these
» androgen drugs. I think somehow the body/follicles are finding a
» “tolerance” to androgen deprivation with drugs that is unlike what happens
» with full castration.
»
» The only guess I have is this: The ARs can sometimes mutate to beat
» androgen deprivation after several years when they treat prostate cancers.
» Maybe we’re running into some kind of a similar process.
»
» I don’t have any decent ideas about the specifics of what is happening.
» (And this theory is not without its problems.) But the overall effect
» seems similar and I don’t have a better idea.

26

I really don’t have a whole lot else to add about it. I wrote some more here that kind of elaborates on my last point but it’s not really any big further point:

If you take a drug like Fin/Dut, then you should get hair improvement that is enough to put off the loss for several years before it resumes.

This is not exactly what’s happening though.

The drugs never FULLY stop the damage from continuing to accumulate, they just reduce it drastically. That, plus damaged hairs showing a small amount of “rebound” ability when their androgen supply is dramatically reduced, adds up to a condition that only appears to be fully stopped loss. At first. But eventually the continued loss outruns the rebound of improvement that the follicles are capable of, and then the loss appears to “resume.” I think clearly the truth is that it just never fully stopped.

Now, what I have just laid out is the conventional reasoning behind Fin’s (and sometimes Dut’s) propensity to cause a sudden resuming of loss several years into treatment. But it’s what I don’t think is adequately explained. I don’t think the “slipping below baseline” argument explains what happens well enough. It shouldn’t be as dramatic as what so many guys describe.

A gradual resumption of loss should logically start after about year#2 given current understanding of Fin’s results. But that means that when this “barrier” is reached at like year#5 or something, then the rate of loss should not have changed in the last three years previously. It should have been all downhill after year#2. The “baseline point” should theoretically just be a mark on a chart that the patient recalls was his condition a couple years ago. The rate of loss (not the amount or condition, but the RATE) from year#2 until year#5 (or year#6, or year#7, etc), should not be much different with this conventional logic about how Fin works over time.

But like I’ve been repeating, this chain of events does NOT match the stories that keep coming in from Fin users. They’re getting to year#4 or year#6 with very little continued loss, and then suddenly something CHANGES in the situation. Their loss accelerates rapidly right then, and IMHO it’s for no reason that has been adequately explained.

For this reason, I hesitate to assume we can predict anything about this stuff after 4 or 5 years into treatment. We can go based on what we see in others and that’s about it. IMHO there are big holes in our understanding of androgens’ effects on hair and what Fin/Dut does to the game.

27

IMHO there are big holes in our understanding
» of androgens’ effects on hair and what Fin/Dut does to the game.

It couldn’t have been said any better.