Ahab how much NEW hair did this guy get on just his crown?

Stem cell; cell based hair therapy
21

  1. Yes, I stand by that statement, if they are legit, they’ll go through the full battery of tests on humans. That’s what Aderans, Follica, and Replicel are doing, which means they are serious about bringing this product to market. What is Acell/PRP doing?

  2. Activating progenitor cells via thrombin is interesting, now show me published examples where it has grown hair.

  3. Again, show me some published examples where similar methods have grown hair! Even a mice study would be interesting.

I never said that a medicine is not worth investigating just because we don’t know the biology behind it. It is to the people developing that medicine. From the perspective of the client, are you just going to inject stuff into your head because you heard it “works” without having a clue of what is going on, especially when it has never been shown to do so in trials? If this stuff works, they’ll go through clinical trials like everyone else.

22

» 1) Yes, I stand by that statement, if they are legit, they’ll go through
» the full battery of tests on humans. That’s what Aderans, Follica, and
» Replicel are doing, which means they are serious about bringing this
» product to market. What is Acell/PRP doing?

But you are pursuing the idea, or trying to get others to pursure the idea, of making a home-made version of follica right now even though you are now saying that these treatments need to go through the full battery of tests. It kind of sounds like you’re talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand you want these treatment to complete full testing but on the other hand you want others, or yourself, to use a home-made version of follica now before it completes the full testing.

And I was never just refering to PRP. I never was. I always said PRP + Acell + thrombin + other growth factors. You are putting words in my mouth when you act like I was talking about PRP alone.

»
» 2) Activating progenitor cells via thrombin is interesting, now show me
» published examples where it has grown hair.

a) I don’t have to. I just have to show that it activates stem cells into turning into progenitor cells. That’s all over the internet. They did it with hearts.

b) that photograph by doctor Cole shows it grew a lot of hair. I’m convinced.
i’m convinced because your team (follica) says that the underlying problem in hair loss is that stem cells are not activating and turning into progenitor cells plus thrombin activates stem cells and turns them into progenitor cells. The theory is sound accoring to your team (follica) and the pics by Cole shows it in action.

c) again, keep in mind that you are making it sound like I said just use thrombin with the PRP, but that is not what I said. I said specific growth factors, thrombin, acell, PRP. I would throw in the thrombin for good measure because your team (follica) says that activating stem cells to turn into progenitor cells will ameliorate hair loss and that is what thrombin does. My main idea centers around the growth factors.

»
» 3) Again, show me some published examples where similar methods have grown
» hair! Even a mice study would be interesting.

I don’t need to because you already know about the published work. Histogen has proven that growth factors grow hair. Everyone knows it. The crux of my plan is to use growth factors and acell. Keep in mind that histogen uses an acell-like wound healer plus growth factors and they got 73% more hair inside of one year. I would throw in the PRP just for good measure and the thrombin just for good measure.

Also, there are many before and after pics involving just PRP and
Acell that demonstrate a little regrowth and that is without thrombin and other growth factors.

»
» I never said that a medicine is not worth investigating just because we
» don’t know the biology behind it. It is to the people developing that
» medicine. From the perspective of the client, are you just going to inject
» stuff into your head because you heard it “works” without having a clue of
» what is going on,

Question: Have you put minoxidil on your head even though you don’t have any idea how it works? Answer: yes you have been.

And i do have a clue about what PRP and Acell and growth factors, and thrombin do. I learnt that thrombin promotes stem cells to turn into progenitor cells. I learnt from histogen that acell + the right growth factors cause hair growth in men. I learnt from photographic evidenc that acell + PRP grows a little hair in men. I also know that PRP comes from inside the person’s own body so we are not talking about people injecting concrete into their heads here.

» If this stuff works, they’ll go through clinical trials like
» everyone else.

yea and if follica works then they’ll take it through clinical trials like everyone else and you should stop talking about making home-made versions of it. That is what should happen with follica according to your own statements.
Now that is for you. You can wait all you want. I will follow my own path. At least my path isn’t me talking out of both sides of my mouth. I’m on a straight and narrow path whilst you talk about delaying until trials are completed while at the same time you push for people to try things early.

23

  1. Follica IS going through the full battery of trials. If there was a way to culture fibroblasts and keratinocytes in my bedroom, I would try Aderans’ method too.

  2. This means really nothing to us, if it hasn’t been shown to grow hair. Unless you’re on a 20 year timeframe, then sure, get excited.

  3. What published work?

Actually I don’t use minoxidil. But I will start soon, why? Because it’s been clinically demonstrated to work multiple times. Acell/PRP/Growth factor combo?

24

» 1) Follica IS going through the full battery of trials. If there was a way
» to culture fibroblasts and keratinocytes in my bedroom, I would try
» Aderans’ method too.

But you can’t because your rules say that you have to wait till they complete studies. did you forget your own rules? Also, i think it’s pretty crazy to do this in your own bedroom. I would not do this kind of experiment in my bedroom.

»
» 2) This means really nothing to us, if it hasn’t been shown to grow hair.
» Unless you’re on a 20 year timeframe, then sure, get excited.

I’m already excited. Histogen has established that what these acell doctors are working towards will work.

»
» 3) What published work?

There are studies involving thrombin with the heart and it caused stem cells to activate and become progenitor cells. As far as growth factors + Acell goes histogen studies establish that it will work.

»
» Actually I don’t use minoxidil. But I will start soon, why? Because it’s
» been clinically demonstrated to work multiple times. Acell/PRP/Growth
» factor combo?

I think you have used minoxidil but even if you haven’t you yourself say you will soon and they still don’t know for sure how it works so you are not following your own criteria of insisting that you know how something works before you use it.

As far as Acell/PRP/growth factors combo goes, yes it has been clinically proven by histogen.

25

We have to be 100% sure that there was no hair transplant involved, sometimes these doctors are very clever with the wording they use, we need to ask him point blank that there was no hair transplant done to the area at all.

26

I have no idea what you’re arguing about anymore. I never said that trials “have” to be completed.

I don’t understand why is so hard to understand that minoxidil has been through all three phases of clinical trials, and is FDA approved to treat MPB, whereas Acell/PRP/w/e are not. Sure the minox mechanism isn’t fully understood, but it’s been pretty conclusively demonstrated, whereas Acell/PRP are not. If they are, please point me to the clinical trials record.

Moral of the story - we don’t know how Acell/PRP/growth factor/wounding combo works, we have no clinical trial record to show that it does, and yet you are claiming this stuff as fact for some reason. (btw, by clinical trial, I don’t mean a few reports of growing hair, I mean a full clinical trial conducted under the relevant authorities).

Anyways, I suppose it is time for me to withdraw from this discussion.

27

» I have no idea what you’re arguing about anymore. I never said that trials
» “have” to be completed.

Yes, you did. You did say that a treatment has to go through the trials. That is exactly what you said. Here is a quote from you:

“go through the full battery of clinical trials”

You say that treatments have to go through the “full battery” of trials. That’s exactly what you said. Are you aware of the things you are saying?

»
» I don’t understand why is so hard to understand that minoxidil has been
» through all three phases of clinical trials, and is FDA approved to treat
» MPB, whereas Acell/PRP/w/e are not. Sure the minox mechanism isn’t fully
» understood, but it’s been pretty conclusively demonstrated,

The point is that you said in order for a treatment to be acceptable you would have to know how it works biologically. That’s what you said. And yet you probably have, and surely will, use minoxidil even though nobody knows it works. You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth - saying contradictory things.

» Acell/PRP are not. If they are, please point me to the clinical trials
» record.

Once again, I never said Acell/PRP alone. I have been saying Acell + PRP + thrombin + some growth factors. You are misquoting me.

»
» Moral of the story - we don’t know how Acell/PRP/growth factor/wounding
» combo works, we have no clinical trial record to show that it does,

yea, we do. we have the histogen clinical trial records and those are public so you should be aware of them.

» you are claiming this stuff as fact for some reason.

Yea I’m claiming it as a fact…I’m claiming it as a fact because Histogen proved it.

» I don’t mean a few reports of growing hair, I mean a full clinical
» trial conducted under the relevant authorities).

Histogen’s trials are conducted properly. I have no idea what your complaint with the histogen trials are but they are being done correctly.

»
» Anyways, I suppose it is time for me to withdraw from this discussion.

Yea, because you’re wrong, you’re talking out of both sides of your mouth, and you’re making contradictory and uninformed statements. You don’t seem to be aware of Histogen’s published results and I’m not going to post them for you because you can look them up yourself.

28

Follica, Aderans, and Replicel ARE going through the full battery of clinical trials. Acell is not. PRP is not. Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Acell has one clinical trial in the US, result: “Terminated”.

29

While we’re at it, the point SpanishDude was making and the one I wanted you to grasp was not that a treatment is only viable after it has been through all 3 clinical trials, but rather the fact that if a treatment works, and a company is really interested in bringing this treatment out to market, it’ll go through the battery of clinical trials I mentioned. Your Acell+PRP+Growth Factor has not done that. Nor have Acell or PRP gone through that process.

30

If you decide to contact the Cole clinic to clarify any points can you please find out if propecia / minoxidil was part of the ‘medical management plan’ ?

Thanks JJB

31

» Follica, Aderans, and Replicel ARE going through the full battery of
» clinical trials. Acell is not. PRP is not. Are you just arguing for the
» sake of arguing?
»
» Acell has one clinical trial in the US, result: “Terminated”.

the foundation of the histogen treatment is an ecm wound healing agent a lot like acell. So you can use histogen’s success as a potential barometer of the potential success with Acell. They’re very similar.

did acell’s one terminated trial include adding the correct growth factors: “No.”

32

» While we’re at it, the point SpanishDude was making and the one I wanted
» you to grasp was not that a treatment is only viable after it has been
» through all 3 clinical trials, but rather the fact that if a treatment
» works, and a company is really interested in bringing this treatment out to
» market, it’ll go through the battery of clinical trials I mentioned.

Well, that may have been what you meant but it is not what you said.

Also, your point that if a drug works and a company is interested in bringing the drug to market then the company will put the drug through clinical trials doesen’t really seem relevant. For example, what if a drug is somewhat beneficial but the company decides for some boneheaded reason not to bring the drug to market? It happens. That’s what happened with Neosil’s peptide and RU58841.

» Acell+PRP+Growth Factor has not done that.

Histogen’s treatment is going through clinical trials and the foundation of Histogen’s treatment is very similar to Acell + PRP. So if Acell + PRP got the additional growth factors that Histogen is getting then Acell + PRP + those growth factors would theoretically mimic Histogen’s treatment.

Nor have Acell or PRP gone
» through that process.

I am not now, or ever, talking about acell + PRP alone. you keep misquoting me on that issue. I am talking about acell + PRP + growth factors + thrombin, which would be similar to the highly promising treatment Histogen is putting through trials.

33

» If you decide to contact the Cole clinic to clarify any points can you
» please find out if propecia / minoxidil was part of the ‘medical management
» plan’ ?
»
» Thanks JJB

do you know where cole is located? is he located in the united states?

34

jarjarbinx, these long discussions are pretty redundant and are not helping the forum because most of people will skip them.

If dr. Cole has found a wonder formula, why isn’t he applying it everyday in his clinic? Why isn’t he posting good results every week?

These two photos date back from June 2011. 6 months ago.
Does this mean that only 1 patient every 6 moths is having good results (assuming these are considered good results)?
Then, maybe this was a pure coincidence, and this improvement was due to some other cause, or maybe this was a weird good responder.

Questions:

  1. Is this treatment guaranteed? Any kind of guarantee?
  2. What is the price?
35

» jarjarbinx, these long discussions are pretty redundant and are not helping
» the forum because most of people will skip them.

They’re only redundant because the info I’m giving KO is not sinking in for him. My point is that we should not dismiss the idea of Acell + PRP + thrombin + growth factors because it might be beneficial and almost all of the stuff necessary is already available. KO goes on and on about how I’m advocating Acell + PRP which is not true. I am saying we need to keep our eyes on Acell + PRP + thrombin + growth factors. He keep knocking my position but he is not even correctly stating my position. I have told him repeatedly that he is misquoting me but he continues to do it. Plus he continually posts posits that clearly indicate that he does not understand that Acell + growth factors mimics Histogen’s ECM + growth factors. He also keeps stating criteria for why we should ignore Acell + PRP + growth factors + thrombin but he himself does not adhere to his own criteria at times because one of his criteria is that we should not take medicines that have not completed “full battery” of tests and we don’t know how they biologically work, but he wants to use medicines that have not completed the “full battery” of tests and we don’t understand how they work (minoxidil).

»
» If dr. Cole has found a wonder formula, why isn’t he applying it everyday
» in his clinic? Why isn’t he posting good results every week?

Good question. I don’t know the answer yet but I plan to find out. I need some time with that issue.

» These two photos date back from June 2011. 6 months ago.
» Does this mean that only 1 patient every 6 moths is having good results
» (assuming these are considered good results)?
» Then, maybe this was a pure coincidence, and this improvement was due to
» some other cause, or maybe this was a weird good responder.

Good points. I am going to be looking into these issues very soon…next wednesday when I get a day off. I will get back to you regards to your reasonable and good questions.

»
» Questions:
» 1. Is this treatment guaranteed? Any kind of guarantee?
» 2. What is the price?

Before we look at the cost or guarantees I should first get answers to your other questions, which are good questions. For example, is there more than one patient who has taken this treatment (acell + prp + thrombin) or is there just this one patient? is he just a freak wierd good responder? did something else cause the regrowth? Etc, etc, etc. I need to get some answers about this next wednesday and then get back to you.

Hang in there and stay tuned.

36

» They’re only redundant because the info I’m giving KO is not sinking in for
» him. My point is that we should not dismiss the idea of Acell + PRP +
» thrombin + growth factors because it might be beneficial and almost all of
» the stuff necessary is already available. KO goes on and on about how I’m
» advocating Acell + PRP which is not true. I am saying we need to keep our
» eyes on Acell + PRP + thrombin + growth factors. He keep knocking
» my position but he is not even correctly stating my position. I have told
» him repeatedly that he is misquoting me but he continues to do it. Plus he
» continually posts posits that clearly indicate that he does not understand
» that Acell + growth factors mimics Histogen’s ECM + growth factors.

okay, so according to you, PRP+Acell+thrombin+growth factors are equivalent to Histogen’s HSC?
Okay, so why don’t we wait for Histogen’s ongoing trials, and lets see how far can they go? Histogen seems determined to systematically evaluate their formula, in many patients, with macro photos, haircounts, placebos, statistics, etc… so I think it is much more logical to wait for Histogen to release their statistically significant data, rather than speculating about 2 pictures of a single patient dr Cole has released in 6 months, which is statistically meaningless.

also, correct me if I am wrong (I could be, as I don’t pay much attention to PRP), but I think dr. Greco has published better results of PRP, than Cole’s result we are discussing now.

» Good question. I don’t know the answer yet but I plan to find out. I need
» some time with that issue.

» Good points. I am going to be looking into these issues very soon…next
» wednesday when I get a day off. I will get back to you regards to your
» reasonable and good questions.
»
» Before we look at the cost or guarantees I should first get answers to your
» other questions, which are good questions. For example, is there more than
» one patient who has taken this treatment (acell + prp + thrombin) or is
» there just this one patient? is he just a freak wierd good responder? did
» something else cause the regrowth? Etc, etc, etc. I need to get some
» answers about this next wednesday and then get back to you.
»
»
» Hang in there and stay tuned.

thank you, I appreciate your open mind.

37

jarjarbinx can you tell me what is thrombin? what does it do?

I know Acell and PRP but never heard of thrombin.

38

» jarjarbinx can you tell me what is thrombin? what does it do?
»
» I know Acell and PRP but never heard of thrombin.

Thrombin added to Acell and PRP is an interesting idea. Of course one guy getting good results by adding thrombin to Acell and PRP is not enough. We need to know if this one good result happens consistantly for other patients as well. But when it comes to theory thrombin is really interesting because it does something that the top researchers say we need to do - it causes stem cells to activate and turn into progenitor cells. Remember that the latest research establishes that we have enough stem cells but our problem is that our stem cells are not activating and converting into progenitor cells. Again, thrombin prompts stem cells turn into progenitor cells. This is why I like the idea of Acell + PRP + thrombin + growth factors. check out these links and keep in mind that tb4 is related to thrombin:

39

» jarjarbinx can you tell me what is thrombin? what does it do?
»
» I know Acell and PRP but never heard of thrombin.

it’s actually tb4 that prompts stem cells to turn into progenitor cells and thrombin prompts the production of tb4:

40

» » jarjarbinx can you tell me what is thrombin? what does it do?
» »
» » I know Acell and PRP but never heard of thrombin.
»
»
» it’s actually tb4 that prompts stem cells to turn into progenitor cells and
» thrombin prompts the production of tb4:
»

Good stuff, thanks man!