AGA evolved to protect against prostate cancer ! Any comments?

Medications for hair loss
1

AGA evolved to protect against prostate cancer!!!
How many of you support this theory?

Androgenic alopecia may have evolved to protect men from prostate cancer by increasing skin exposure to ultraviolet radiation

Med Hypotheses. 2008;70(5):1038-40

Androgenic alopecia affects populations adapted to colder climate, and individuals at an age and hormonal status susceptible to prostate cancer. Male pattern baldness enhances absorption of UV radiation on the top of the head, an area directly exposed to sunlight during everyday activities. Ultraviolet radiation is reported to reduce the risk of advanced prostate cancer. Here I propose that progression of androgenic alopecia rather than being a risk factor is a finely tuned mechanism evolved to protect against prostate cancer

2

» AGA evolved to protect against prostate cancer!!!
» How many of you support this theory?

There’s only one teensy tiny little problem with that theory: why did balding also evolve in certain other primates like the stumptailed macaque?? Those animals don’t even develop prostate hypertrophy, and (presumably) don’t get prostate cancer! :wink:

.

3

I could see a way more convincing exception:
Such a theory would imply that all men who suffer from prostate cancer are bald. Indeed, this protective system would have no reason to fail and thus produce non bald cancer sufferers.

4

» I could see a way more convincing exception:
» Such a theory would imply that all men who suffer
» from prostate cancer are bald.

It implies no such thing. All the theory has to imply is that baldness is HELPFUL in the fight against prostate cancer.

But again, the fact that stumptailed macaques also evolved balding would appear to be the death-knell for that theory. Monkeys don’t develop prostate cancer in the first place.

» Indeed, this protective system would have no reason to fail
» and thus produce non bald cancer sufferers.

No reason to fail? What the hell are you talking about??

.

5

MPB doesn’t necessarily need to have any helpful function at all.

It could easily have been an evolutionary misfire that hasn’t been eliminated (or maybe fully embraced) yet.

Or it could be a way to signal aging in males that got a little over-expressed in some of us. That’s totally good for the species as a whole and yet totally bad for everyone who suffers from it.

6

» » I could see a way more convincing exception:
» » Such a theory would imply that all men who suffer
» » from prostate cancer are bald.
»
» It implies no such thing. All the theory has to imply is that baldness is
» HELPFUL in the fight against prostate cancer.
»
» But again, the fact that stumptailed macaques also evolved balding would
» appear to be the death-knell for that theory. Monkeys don’t develop
» prostate cancer in the first place.
»
» » Indeed, this protective system would have no reason to fail
» » and thus produce non bald cancer sufferers.
»
» No reason to fail? What the hell are you talking about??

What you seem to not have understood.
Hairsite’s postulate is: AGA is a second hand effect of prostate cancer or prostate cancer inception, or tendency to prostate cancer. By developing, AGA protects prostate tissues, whether it is by allowing more sun radiation thru the body or diverting a part of DHT’s destroying power from prostate to hair. The LOGICAL consequence is: any cancer sufferer before being diagnosed as such should have exhausted all the protective barriers that evolution has bestowed on them, and thus, should be bald.
Leave your monkeys alone.

7

» What you seem to not have understood.
» Hairsite’s postulate is: AGA is a second hand effect of prostate
» cancer or prostate cancer inception, or tendency to prostate cancer.

That’s not Hairsite’s postulate. Hairsite’s postulate is that balding evolved sparately from prostate cancer, because exposure to sun presumably fights prostate cancer, possibly by making vitamin D.

» By developing,
» AGA protects prostate tissues, whether it is by allowing more sun
» radiation thru the body or diverting a part of DHT’s destroying power from
» prostate to hair.

LOL! Hair doesn’t “divert” DHT from the prostate! :smiley:

FYI: hair follicles produce their own DHT, as does the prostate.

» The LOGICAL consequence is: any cancer sufferer before being
» diagnosed as such should have exhausted all the protective barriers
» that evolution has bestowed on them, and thus, should be bald.

You’re just kidding about all that, aren’t you? :slight_smile:

» Leave your monkeys alone.

I suggest you think long and hard about what I said. The monkeys are a real blow to the theory that balding evolved to fight prostate cancer.

.

8

This reminds me of the theory that people with heart disease are often people with AGA or people with AGA has a higher chance of developing heart disease, something like that.

9

» This reminds me of the theory that people with heart disease are often
» people with AGA or people with AGA has a higher chance of developing heart
» disease, something like that.

Noticed you no longer use topical dutas. What made you stop?

10

» » What you seem to not have understood.
» » Hairsite’s postulate is: AGA is a second hand effect of prostate
» » cancer or prostate cancer inception, or tendency to prostate cancer.
»
» That’s not Hairsite’s postulate. Hairsite’s postulate is that balding
» evolved sparately from prostate cancer, because exposure to sun
» presumably fights prostate cancer, possibly by making vitamin D.
»
» » By developing,
» » AGA protects prostate tissues, whether it is by allowing more sun
» » radiation thru the body or diverting a part of DHT’s destroying power
» from
» » prostate to hair.
»
» LOL! Hair doesn’t “divert” DHT from the prostate! :smiley:
»
» FYI: hair follicles produce their own DHT, as does the prostate.
»
» » The LOGICAL consequence is: any cancer sufferer before being
» » diagnosed as such should have exhausted all the protective barriers
» » that evolution has bestowed on them, and thus, should be bald.
»
» You’re just kidding about all that, aren’t you? :slight_smile:
»
» » Leave your monkeys alone.
»
» I suggest you think long and hard about what I said. The monkeys are a
» real blow to the theory that balding evolved to fight prostate cancer.
»
» .

Brian, I am obviously not joking at all and I suspect you know it. Reading Hairsite’s postulate again, I understand that AGA is an offshoot of an inclination to prostate cancer. Hairsite is roughly saying that with evolution, males have developped AGA as a protective barrier against prostate cancer. Again, logically, all males NOW should be repositories of this feature. Hence, any prostate cancer sufferer should show evident signs of AGA since this protective barrier should have been activated before or as the disease breaks out. As to this “diverting process”, I 'm not so sure we have really serious means to judge it preposterous since AGA and prostate cancer are about down to this: DHT’s action. what prioritary affinities does the circulating DHT have?. And that’s just another subsequent point hairsite might be raising: an elevated DHT, putting males at risk would first attack hair tissues rather than prostate. I know you have a very good knowledge of these mechanisms, but there really is not joke in there.:frowning: :frowning:

11

A recent study has shown that people with AGA do not have a higher risk of heart disease -

Am J Epidemiol. 2008 Mar 15;167(6):676-83

Baldness and myocardial infarction in men: the atherosclerosis risk in communities study

Because hair loss may be a surrogate measure of androgenic activity-possibly a determinant of coronary atherosclerosis-several studies have explored the presence and magnitude of an association between male pattern baldness and myocardial infarction (MI).

In particular, vertex baldness, but not frontal baldness alone, was strongly associated with incident MI in a large, hospital-based, case-control study. The authors examined these associations in a cross-sectional sample of 5,056 men aged 52-75 years, of whom 767 had a history of MI.

The sample was derived from the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities (ARIC) Study (1987-1998). As compared with a baldness-free reference group, the estimated odds ratios for prevalent MI from a multivariable model were 1.28 (frontal baldness), 1.02 (mild vertex baldness), 1.40 (moderate vertex baldness), and 1.18 (severe vertex baldness).

Other regression models have yielded similar results, including the absence of a monotonic “dose-response relation” between the extent of vertex baldness and prevalent MI. The authors also examined the relation of baldness pattern to carotid intimal-medial thickness, a measure of atherosclerosis, among those who were free of clinical cardiovascular disease.

The estimated mean differences in carotid intimal-medial thickness between groups of men with various types of baldness and their baldness-free counterparts were all close to zero.

The results of this study suggest that male pattern baldness is not a surrogate measure of an important risk factor for myocardial infarction or asymptomatic atherosclerosis.

12

» Reading Hairsite’s postulate again, I understand
» that AGA is an offshoot of an inclination to prostate
» cancer. Hairsite is roughly saying that with evolution,
» males have developped AGA as a protective barrier against
» prostate cancer. Again, logically, all males NOW should be
» repositories of this feature. Hence, any prostate cancer
» sufferer should show evident signs of AGA since this
» protective barrier should have been activated before
» or as the disease breaks out.

AGA isn’t something that gets “activated” by prostate cancer. The basic idea is that AGA evolved more separately from prostate cancer, because it purely accidentally has an aspect which helps reduce mortality from prostate cancer (the ability to provide more vitamin D). In other words, balding doesn’t just SPRING INTO ACTION the moment prostate cancer starts to develop! :slight_smile:

But once again I point out to you that the theory doesn’t explain the occurrence of balding in stumptailed macaques, so it seems extraordinarily unlikely to be the explanation for balding in humans.

» As to this “diverting process”, I 'm
» not so sure we have really serious means to judge it preposterous since
» AGA and prostate cancer are about down to this: DHT’s action. what
» prioritary affinities does the circulating DHT have?.

That’s irrelevant, because circulating DHT has little role as an endocrine hormone. It’s the DHT generated WITHIN the prostate and WITHIN the hair follicles which is by far the more important factor.

.

13

»
» AGA isn’t something that gets “activated” by prostate cancer. The basic
» idea is that AGA evolved more separately from prostate cancer,
» because it purely accidentally has an aspect which helps reduce mortality
» from prostate cancer (the ability to provide more vitamin D). In other
» words, balding doesn’t just SPRING INTO ACTION the moment prostate cancer
» starts to develop! :slight_smile:
»

Hairsite’s wording is:
"AGA evolved to protect against prostate cancer!!!
How many of you support this theory?

Androgenic alopecia may have evolved to protect men from prostate cancer by increasing skin exposure to ultraviolet radiation"

It definitely suggests that AGA is a protective mechanism against prostate cancer. There is no “accident” implied by this “evolved TO protect”, that is “in order to protect”. hence my conclusion that if this was true, all men suffering from prostate cancer should show signs of AGA, which is obviously not the case. Once again, this reasoning is far more convincing than your monkey story, however compelling this latter example may be as well.
:expressionless:

14

» It definitely suggests that AGA is a protective mechanism against prostate
» cancer. There is no “accident” implied by this “evolved TO protect”, that
» is “in order to protect”.

Again, the theory is that balding gradually evolved OVER THE MILLENIA, because extra vitamin D supposedly increases the survival rate from prostate cancer. That doesn’t mean that it’s a DIRECT MECHANISM that the body uses to fight the disease, as in the moment the body detects prostate cancer, it sends the signals to the scalp to start balding! :smiley:

Come on, brm, use your head about all this. You’re just making yourself look foolish. :surprised:

» hence my conclusion that if this was true, all
» men suffering from prostate cancer should show signs of AGA,
» which is obviously not the case.

Yeah, NO SHIIT. In other words, the idea is ridiculous.

» Once again, this reasoning is far more convincing
» than your monkey story, however compelling this latter
» example may be as well.

The “monkey story” kills the prostate cancer hypothesis.

.

15

»
» Again, the theory is that balding gradually evolved OVER THE MILLENIA,
» because extra vitamin D supposedly increases the survival rate from
» prostate cancer. That doesn’t mean that it’s a DIRECT MECHANISM that the
» body uses to fight the disease, as in the moment the body detects prostate
» cancer, it sends the signals to the scalp to start balding! :smiley:
»
» Come on, brm, use your head about all this. You’re just making yourself
» look foolish. :surprised:
»
»

Again and again, no. And your own sentence condemns your stance. “Over the millenia” say you. Yes, that’s why the word “evolved” has to be understood as “result of Evolution”. Let’s hark back to Hairsite’s postulate: “Here I propose that progression of androgenic alopecia rather than being a risk factor is a finely tuned mechanism evolved to protect against prostate cancer”. Finely tuned mechanism EVOLVED to protect against prostate cancer. Not in a single individual but supposedly in all of them from EVOLUTION. And don’t tell me the word “progression” makes any difference (i think you will though…).It would be ridiculous to say that this potential protective system would exist only on already balding men since EVOLUTION has made it a common feature.
I am not making myself look foolish. You’re just, as is sometimes the case, refusing to admit that your reasoning was a little less convincing than mine, for once only maybe.:frowning:
Period.

16

» A recent study has shown that people with AGA do not have a higher risk of
» heart disease -
»
» Am J Epidemiol. 2008 Mar 15;167(6):676-83
»
» Baldness and myocardial infarction in men: the atherosclerosis risk in
» communities study
»
»
» Because hair loss may be a surrogate measure of androgenic
» activity-possibly a determinant of coronary atherosclerosis-several studies
» have explored the presence and magnitude of an association between male
» pattern baldness and myocardial infarction (MI).
»
» In particular, vertex baldness, but not frontal baldness alone, was
» strongly associated with incident MI in a large, hospital-based,
» case-control study. The authors examined these associations in a
» cross-sectional sample of 5,056 men aged 52-75 years, of whom 767 had a
» history of MI.
»
» The sample was derived from the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities (ARIC)
» Study (1987-1998). As compared with a baldness-free reference group, the
» estimated odds ratios for prevalent MI from a multivariable model were 1.28
» (frontal baldness), 1.02 (mild vertex baldness), 1.40 (moderate vertex
» baldness), and 1.18 (severe vertex baldness).
»
» Other regression models have yielded similar results, including the
» absence of a monotonic “dose-response relation” between the extent of
» vertex baldness and prevalent MI. The authors also examined the relation of
» baldness pattern to carotid intimal-medial thickness, a measure of
» atherosclerosis, among those who were free of clinical cardiovascular
» disease.
»
» The estimated mean differences in carotid intimal-medial thickness between
» groups of men with various types of baldness and their baldness-free
» counterparts were all close to zero.
»
» The results of this study suggest that male pattern baldness is not a
» surrogate measure of an important risk factor for myocardial infarction or
» asymptomatic atherosclerosis.

I swear I read another article that says the opposite.

17

» » This reminds me of the theory that people with heart disease are often
» » people with AGA or people with AGA has a higher chance of developing
» heart
» » disease, something like that.
»
» Noticed you no longer use topical dutas. What made you stop?

Too expensive, I think it did make my hair feel thicker, I should have given it more time, topical dutas may work.

18

Now concentrate on the most important point which I’ve tried to get across to you before:

“That doesn’t mean that it’s a DIRECT MECHANISM that the body uses to fight the disease, as in the moment the body detects prostate cancer, it sends the signal to the scalp to start balding!”

:smiley:

.

19

» MPB doesn’t necessarily need to have any helpful function at all.
»
» It could easily have been an evolutionary misfire that hasn’t been
» eliminated (or maybe fully embraced) yet.

What’s your explanation for the fact that some other primates (most notably the stumptailed macaque) also experience balding, but not others?

.

20

Sometimes wonder if we’re not talking ourselves into circles. We of course agree that AGA and prostate cancer are not linked, at least in terms of inception. But if Hairsite’s assumption is true, then they become linked in any individual, balding in the first place or not, simply because Hairsite’s postulate implies a systemic relationship inherited from evolution. Considering it can only be “true” with already balding individuals would be a little (a little only) like saying that diabetes can make blind only patients who were shortsighted in the first place.