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Wounding...How long on the topicals?


#1

Im on Day 9 post wounding. I started on the topicals and also taking orally on Day 3. How long do I continue inhibiting EGF and promoting wnt? Is there a point past which it would be detrimental to continue EGF inhibition and wnt promotion? I’d be grateful for any input guys.


#2

» Im on Day 9 post wounding. I started on the topicals and also taking orally
» on Day 3. How long do I continue inhibiting EGF and promoting wnt?

A couple of line items from my notes from the latest patent:

“Newly created follicles in mice lacked pigment, except when the WNT pathway was inhibited during the first 9 days after wounding.”

“In mice, WNT supression for 9 days immediately after abrasion produced pigmented follicles, but continued suppression of WNT for > 9 days inhibited new hair follicle formation.”

The number of days you should supress EGF isn’t clearly spelled out (they give a range), but around 10 days seems to be reasonable based on the verbage. You start inhibiting EGF several days after wounding, depending on how much the wound has reepithelialized. So, if you wound on day 0, you might start EGF inhibitors on day 4, for example, and then stop on day 14.


#3

In terms of WNT, the patent talks about suppressing it, and then inducing it.

In mice, if you want to create pigmented hair follicles, you suppress WNT immediately after wounding and during re-epithelialization, and then you induce WNT from that point on.

So, the protocol would be this:

  1. Wound
  2. Inhibit WNT immediately.
  3. After several days, stop inhibiting WNT, and start inhibiting EGF.

Personally, I am not going to try to mess with the WNT pathway. Whether I get pigmented hair or not, we’ll see (whether I get ANY hair or not, we’ll see).


#4

» In terms of WNT, the patent talks about suppressing it, and then inducing
» it.
»
» In mice, if you want to create pigmented hair follicles, you suppress
» WNT immediately after wounding and during re-epithelialization, and then
» you induce WNT from that point on.
»
» So, the protocol would be this:
»
» 1) Wound
» 2) Inhibit WNT immediately.
» 3) After several days, stop inhibiting WNT, and start inhibiting EGF.
»
» Personally, I am not going to try to mess with the WNT pathway. Whether I
» get pigmented hair or not, we’ll see (whether I get ANY hair or not, we’ll
» see).

interesting, so it looks like that for ideal protocol we’d like to have WNT inhibitor (to be taken first 9 days), EGF inhibitor (taken from day 9 and later) and something that increases WNT (taken from day 9 and later).

EGF inhibitor proved to work for this is clearly gefinitib and I’m sure someone will get that at some point

How about the WNT stuff? lithium to promote WNT.

How about that WNT inhibitor?


#5

I’d be surprised of any humans get colorless follicles, unless maybe the rest of their scalp hair was already grey/white from age.

The hair characteristics, including color, curl, thickness, direction, and density, ALL come from the skin’s DNA.

I suspect that the color issues in the tests were just a product of the fact that they were messing with skin grafts and not live humans.


#6

» interesting, so it looks like that for ideal protocol we’d like to have
» WNT inhibitor (to be taken first 9 days), EGF inhibitor (taken from day 9
» and later) and something that increases WNT (taken from day 9 and later).

Yes, at least in mice. In humans, it’s unknown (except to maybe Follica) whether suppression of WNT is required to create pigmented hair follicles. If you didn’t care about pigment, or it’s not required, you could skip the WNT suppression altogether.

By the way, the “9 days” in your example (and in my notes) represents the number of days it takes the wound to re-epithialize. It could be 3 days, 4 days, 10 days, etc. For those doing the experiment at home, you’ll have to monitor the wound to tell when it’s done re-epithializing, at which time you apply the EGF inhibitor (and stop inhibiting WNT…if that’s part of the protocol).

With regard to actually enhancing WNT activity post re-epithializeation, it’s unclear whether there is a benefit to explicitly doing this if you are going to inhibit EGF. Perhaps inhibiting EGF automatically induces an increase in WNT activity – someone with a strong knowledge of EGF-WNT interactions may be able to answer this. Given that the latest patent only utilizes EGF inhibitors and not WNT inducers, simply inhibiting EGF alone appears to be enough, whether or not it ultimately increases WNT activity.

» How about the WNT stuff? lithium to promote WNT.

I’m not sure we need to induce WNT if we’re inhibiting EGF, but if one wanted to induce WNT, lithium may be a possibility.

» How about that WNT inhibitor?

As far as drugs or supplements you can buy to do this, it beats me. The patent talks about naturally occuring proteins in your body that inhibit WNT.


#7

I will still be very happy as long as if I can get a NW1 density. (and I believe many other ppl will think same as me)

this may sound like i am being a crybaby but…

all I want is

  1. follica-method treatment 2015 or before.

  2. decent density (NW1…)

god I need hair…

» I’d be surprised of any humans get colorless follicles, unless maybe the
» rest of their scalp hair was already grey/white from age.
»
» The hair characteristics, including color, curl, thickness, direction, and
» density, ALL come from the skin’s DNA.
»
»
» I suspect that the color issues in the tests were just a product of the
» fact that they were messing with skin grafts and not live humans.


#8

yeah :slight_smile: I don’t care about color as well. NW1 would be ultimate cure. Damn. I guess we have to pray a lot more :slight_smile:


#9

And how can anyone tell that it has just finished?


#10

» By the way, the “9 days” in your example (and in my notes) represents the
» number of days it takes the wound to re-epithialize. It could be 3 days, 4
» days, 10 days, etc. For those doing the experiment at home, you’ll have to
» monitor the wound to tell when it’s done re-epithializing, at which time
» you apply the EGF inhibitor (and stop inhibiting WNT…if that’s part of
» the protocol).

Here’s how you can detect re-epithelialization (and hence when to start inhibiting EGF). This description is from the patent:

“Reepithelialization can be detected through inspection of the new epidermis where covering of the wound area by keratinocytes indicates reepithelialization. The presence of a keratinocytes can be seen with the naked eye as a white, glossy, shiny surface that gradually covers the open wound.”

How long it takes to re-epithelialize is going to vary a little bit from person to person, based on that person’s physiology (some people heal quicker than others), how large and deep the wound was (and related to this, what wounding technique was used), and probably environmental factors. What this means for home experimentors is that there’s no magic number (in terms of days) for when you should start applying the topicals…it’s going to be (or may be) different for each one of us.


#11

I’ll say it again, I really think all this WNT pathway stuff is the wrong road (for us) to be chasing right now.

It’s very clear that if Folica’s whole plan is to work, then just the oral EGF-R inhibition from day #4-12 HAS TO grow new follicles ALONE.

Anything else we add on is not 100% necessary to seeing new hair follicle #1, but it IS still a risk to foul-up the growth of new hair follicle #1.

We can spend the next six months trying everything in the patents, but if it doesn’t work, then WE WON’T KNOW WHY IT DIDN’T WORK. We won’t know whether the whole Folica deal is a bust, or if Folica actually does work but we added one too many bonus-topicals into our homemade testing that fouled it up.


#12

Well I didn’t suppress the wnt before promoting it but regarding coming off the EGF inhibition, going by your ten day guideline, that would make it Day 13 for me. 11th July is Day 10. Do you think I should drop the wnt promoter (lithium) at the same time as I drop the inhibitor (milk thistle) on Day 13? And then maybe continue with minox and caffeine thereafter?


#13

There’s really two phases involved in Follica’s procedure:

  1. The time from the point of wounding to the time of re-epithelialization.
  2. After re-epithelialization.

The real action, in terms of hair follicle creation, happens after re-epithelialization (phase 2). This is the point we will be intervening with our topicals (assuming we’re not interested in suppressing Wnt).

The more I think about it, the more I think it’s not terribly important to worry about contacting the wound with benign substances like shampoo in the days following woudning. As long as we let the body heal the wound on its own, I think we’re good to go. Like I said, the real stuff happens after re-epithelialization, anyway.


#14

» I’ll say it again, I really think all this WNT pathway stuff is the wrong
» road (for us) to be chasing right now.

In my case, I am going to keep it simple: wounding + gefitinib, that’s it. A couple of areas where I am deviating from the patent:

  1. I am not going to depilate before wounding. I would if I knew Follica’s procedure worked – depilation does greatly increase the number of new follicles created. But I don’t want to pluck my hairline and then have no results to show for it.

  2. I am going to shampoo after wounding. This is not necessarily forbidden in the patent, although they hint that you should ‘optionally’ not contact the wound with anti-infectives, which I guess in a broad sense includes cleansing.

I think the major differences between the guys who are trying this at home are:

  1. The wounding technique. Some are using sandpaper, others are using chemical peels (the patent mentions both as options). I am sure some guys are wounding deeper than others, and that the wounds are different sizes.

  2. Inhibitors. Some are using natural EGF inhibitors, and some are using synthetic EGF inhibitors. And some are not using EGF inhibitors at all, but instead are using Wnt promotors (e.g., lithium).


#15

» factors. What this means for home experimentors is that there’s no magic
» number (in terms of days) for when you should start applying the
» topicals…it’s going to be (or may be) different for each one of us.

What tropicals are you talking about? I thought the consensus was to use oral EGF-R inhibitors only after re-epithelialization?


#16

» » I’ll say it again, I really think all this WNT pathway stuff is the
» wrong
» » road (for us) to be chasing right now.
»
» In my case, I am going to keep it simple: wounding + gefitinib, that’s it.
» A couple of areas where I am deviating from the patent:
»
» 1) I am not going to depilate before wounding. I would if I knew
» Follica’s procedure worked – depilation does greatly increase the number
» of new follicles created. But I don’t want to pluck my hairline and then
» have no results to show for it.
»
» 2) I am going to shampoo after wounding. This is not necessarily forbidden
» in the patent, although they hint that you should ‘optionally’ not contact
» the wound with anti-infectives, which I guess in a broad sense includes
» cleansing.
»
» I think the major differences between the guys who are trying this at home
» are:
»
» 1) The wounding technique. Some are using sandpaper, others are using
» chemical peels (the patent mentions both as options). I am sure some guys
» are wounding deeper than others, and that the wounds are different sizes.
»
» 2) Inhibitors. Some are using natural EGF inhibitors, and some are using
» synthetic EGF inhibitors. And some are not using EGF inhibitors at all, but
» instead are using Wnt promotors (e.g., lithium).

Did you start yet?


#17

» Did you start yet?

No, not yet. I’m going to do it around the end of this month, if all goes well.


#18

» What tropicals are you talking about? I thought the consensus was to use
» oral EGF-R inhibitors only after re-epithelialization?

Almost for sure, Follica is going to formulate the EGF-R inhibitors as topicals. The patent goes into quite a bit of detail on topical solutions.

The patent also mentions that you can take the EGF-R inhibitors orally, as an option.


#19

» Do you think I should drop the wnt promoter
» (lithium) at the same time as I drop the inhibitor (milk thistle) on Day
» 13?

Personally, I would drop them both when the time is up. Their job will be done.

» And then maybe continue with minox and caffeine thereafter?

Did you use the minox with lithium and the milk thistle? You could have. Minoxidil increases new follicle generation after abrasion. Continuing on probably couldn’t hurt…it would be similar to applying it to a baldness-prone part of the scalp.


#20

It seems that the board is producing one unique procedure to follow. According to me thats the wrong way to move. We certainly need to pursue “different” strategies for different trialers, for instance some need to test the WNT inhibition then the WNT promotion others should only do the EGFR inhibition and leaving the WNT pathways for the body . Later on we can compare the results and judge according to them. Finally dont forget that Baccy had already some kind of “positive” results. So MAY BE we only need something like 2 more trialers confirming that to have the proof of concept for this procedure .Hence, we need to go into the optimization road of this procedure.

Best Regards.