Why I think that HM should work

Stem cell; cell based hair therapy
21

[quote]Viktor, first a welcome, and it is great to have a Dr. with even specialization training you mention & 5 years observing this forum now posting, please keep posting.

JarJar is a DeFacto Admin here so you will be banned unfortunately, being a smart guy you’ve figured out by now that is why he hasn’t been banned & his act. is bulletproof considering the mountains of complaints about his trolling so obviously JarJar must have an “In” with the Admin. Perhaps it’s more than just friendship with admin, but in addition free moderation alert help cos he is obsessively on the site & many have been banned at his hands.

I know of so many others that have been banned just because they were on the wrong side of Jarjar here, KO above who now has to post as Aran is just one example of many you can read about here. It’s like countries where people go missing here, cos of Jarjar.

Please reconsider appealing any ban and or re opening another account from one of your other email account options, do so only if allowable, since given your 5 years here & medical education I am sure you have much more to contribute.

If not to be bothered, perhaps consider the other “secret society” forum that JarJar is trying to deter people from going to on my thread http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/board_entry-id-121764-page-0-category-1-order-last_answer-descasc-DESC.html as hairman says they are having success growing hair there using novel advanced treatments & Jarjar doesn’t want it to get out & downplays the place trying to keep what he thinks is the “Holy Grail” of hair loss a secret. Sure you can use KO’s name as a referrali he’s ok with that? Jarjar says another Doctor, Dr. Nigam is on board there to?

[postedby]Originally Posted by viktor[/postedby]
JarJar doesn´t think outside the box. JarJar doesn´t even know what the box looks like.

The cure for hairloss is a multibillion dollar industry. There are nobelprize winners trying to imagine how the box looks like.

I´m just really tired of this forum turning into a playground for trolls who belive they are special and spew out 10 new topics a week.

And to JarJar … that bit about your dentist … wtf man get on neuroleptics or something.

[postedby]Originally Posted by Researcher[/postedby][/quote]

So, Viktor asks a intelligent and highly relevant question and this is your response? I hope that you’re response was written tongue in cheek, because if not, then you sir, are a moron.

22

I was not replying to Viktor’s last post, it was a post further up in the thread. It is not related at all to Viktor’s last question sir!

23

sometimes I wonder what are the chances that Nigam will succeed when large public companies such as Intercytex and Aderans both failed. The scientists who worked for Intercytex and Aderans are no dummies and I am sure they all have better credentials than Nigam. What nigam is doing now is probably just repeating what Intercytes or Aderans had done before, Nigam just labeled things differently.

24

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by HMorHT[/postedby]
sometimes I wonder what are the chances that Nigam will succeed when large public companies such as Intercytex and Aderans both failed. The scientists who worked for Intercytex and Aderans are no dummies and I am sure they all have better credentials than Nigam. What nigam is doing now is probably just repeating what Intercytes or Aderans had done before, Nigam just labeled things differently.[/quote]

There also may be the issue that to some extent, Aderans’ and Intercytex’ hands were tied, so to speak, by regulations in the US and UK… They can’t just do anything they want in official human clinical trials. Numbers of cells injected, numbers of injections, types of cells, legal ability to culture different types of cells – all are strictly regulated.

Whereas Dr. Nigam operates in a relative regulatory vacuum in India, which doesn’t even regulate this type of activity. He can do virtually anything he wants with these stem cells, progenitor cells, etc.

25

Good point RT. That crossed my mind too, I can’t believe there is only 1 doctor doing what Nigam does after so many years. If the investors for Aderans or Intercytex were smart, they should have poured their money into a startup in India or countries with more lenient regulations.

26

You’re psychotic FS/SB.

27

I agree that Dr. Nigam’s principle advantage over ARI/etc is the total lack of regulation & patent infringement limitations. ARI has smart people working for their program but they also have worked under some limitations that India does not impose.

But Dr. Nigam has clearly put a lot of effort and thinking into his research. He has gone to far greater lengths to understand this stuff than it would take to simply rip off some people.

28

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by viktor[/postedby]
Can someone explain how injecting stemcells into a DP, and expecting them to do anything but go into apoptosis, works? I mean what about healty cells respecting borders? If a DP has residue cells then that would mean we have a crowding issue right? and if there are fibroblast … crowded right?

[postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]

To make a very complicated topic simple, I think the point is that they can’t be plain stem cells (i.e. undifferentiated HF bulge stem cells)… they have to be “activated” stem cells, i.e., progenitor cells. At least that’s what Dr. Nigam has said here.

I think the current consensus is as you’ve said, injecting just normal unactivated HF bulge stem cells probably won’t do anything.

Regarding Aderans et al., their trials initially involved injecting not stem cells, but DP cells themselves (and I believe in later trials protocols they moved to various mixes of cells including fibroblasts and/or keratinocytes).

I don’t recall anyone except Dr. Gho claiming that they were injecting pure undifferentiated HF stem cells. Even in Gho’s case, as I’ve pointed out, he had a very loose definition of the term "stem cells’, and was probably using the term misleadingly for marketing purposes.[/quote]

Hey Roger! Nice talking to you :slight_smile:

What I was trying to ask was about border control. As we all know epithelial cells are the cells from which most cancers stem (carcinomas). Epithelial cells are renewed continuously from stemcells so there has to be a control system right. One of the control systems is respecting borders - when two highly differentiated epithelial cells conect they downregulate growth and multiplication (if the cells are still mitotic). Cells also have to be attached to a surface - a epithelial cell that falls of it´s surface should go into apoptosis.

Per definition a epithelial cell that doesn´t act like this is a tumor cell and if it grows through tissue or travels it´s a cancer cell.

Of course certain cells bloodcells can and should travel.

So my question is why would stemcells accept a surface which already has “used up cells” attached to it. The way I see it it´s just not what the body would do.

Please don´t bash the english I´m from sweden.

29

[quote]Hey Roger! Nice talking to you :slight_smile:

What I was trying to ask was about border control. As we all know epithelial cells are the cells from which most cancers stem (carcinomas). Epithelial cells are renewed continuously from stemcells so there has to be a control system right. One of the control systems is respecting borders - when two highly differentiated epithelial cells conect they downregulate growth and multiplication (if the cells are still mitotic). Cells also have to be attached to a surface - a epithelial cell that falls of it´s surface should go into apoptosis.

Per definition a epithelial cell that doesn´t act like this is a tumor cell and if it grows through tissue or travels it´s a cancer cell.

Of course certain cells bloodcells can and should travel.

So my question is why would stemcells accept a surface which already has “used up cells” attached to it. The way I see it it´s just not what the body would do.

Please don´t bash the english I´m from sweden.[/quote]

Excellent points about epithelial surfaces, etc., and very true. However, in a normal hair follicle (no MPB), bulge stem cells convert to progenitor cells, which are motile and migrate down along the follicle, toward the dermal papilla.

You’re right that typical stem cells would be unable to do all these things, and not be able to integrate into a new surface, but progenitor cells have different properties and presumably an ability to do this.

30

[postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]

Excellent points about epithelial surfaces, etc., and very true. However, in a normal hair follicle (no MPB), bulge stem cells convert to progenitor cells, which are motile and migrate down along the follicle, toward the dermal papilla.

You’re right that typical stem cells would be unable to do all these things, and not be able to integrate into a new surface, but progenitor cells have different properties and presumably an ability to do this.[/quote]

But the progenitor cell is just that - a progenitor cell and not the finished product. Say that we have all the knowledge how to differentiate a progenitor cell into the finally differeniated DP cell(s) it still wouldn´t work unless the enviroment is such that the differentiated cell would “function”.

We do agree on some basic facts.

  1. There are stemcells
  2. With the right stimulus they could be transformed into a specific, fully differentiated cell.
  3. For a cell to function they way it is meant to it has to be fully differentiated.
  4. For a cell to become fully differentiated it needs the proper enviroment
  5. The existing “damaged” DP is not the original enviroment for which the cell is hardcoded to exist in.
  6. Turning of the control mechanism which inhibit the cells from accepting it´s enviroment is a bad idea.

I know that we are trying to cure certain diseases with stemcells such as parkinsons, diabetes, cardiomyocts for ischemic heart disease, cartilage etc. but there are issues and as we all know the DP and haircycle is a difficult machine to “repair”.

I don´t want to go full on “Fringe” on the forum but I could easily imagine a scenario where we grew skin and follicles in a petri dish and then transplanted the grafts … or some other out cool solution.

31

It looks like “Researcher” is just another identity of “FollicleSherlock”.

Same British writing style, same syntax, same references to the “private” message forum. Although now he’s calling it a “secret society” – OOOOOHHH!!! Hush, hush!!! :slight_smile:

32

Rogerthat, here’s where I said the same thing yesterday. Check out this post of mine from yesterday:

http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-121824-page-0-category-1-order-last_answer.html

When I called him FS/SB I was using his initials. The initials FS and SB stand for Follicle Sherlock and Science Biology.

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]
It looks like “Researcher” is just another identity of “FollicleSherlock”.

Same British writing style, same syntax, same references to the “private” message forum. Although now he’s calling it a “secret society” – OOOOOHHH!!! Hush, hush!!! :-)[/quote]

33

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]
It looks like “Researcher” is just another identity of “FollicleSherlock”.

Same British writing style, same syntax, same references to the “private” message forum. Although now he’s calling it a “secret society” – OOOOOHHH!!! Hush, hush!!! :-)[/quote]

Folliclesherlock has indeed created multiple accounts in the forum. All his accounts will be removed.

34

Good reasoning, and yes, you may be right.

It may actually be compoundable to a small extent, but not enough to deliver impressive results.

If so, then presumably the limiting factor would be the viability of the hair follicles.

ARI’s cell injections may reach a plateau of effectiveness because once they’ve reached all the miniaturized follicles that are still salvageable, it may be impossible for them to help the rest, which might be unsalvageable.

This limiting factor would possibly be the permanent desctruction of follicles so that as miniaturization progresses, most follicles become so small, quiescent and structurally disorganized that they can’t be recovered with cell injections.

If so then that’s very bad news for HM in general.

It wouldn’t rule out doing tissue engineering to create de novo follicles, but since normal HM is about regenerating existing miniaturized follicles via cell replenishment, then possibly ARI has hit a brick wall in that effort.

I’m not saying this as a fact, I’m just saying this is one possible inference.

35

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]
Good reasoning, and yes, you may be right.

It may actually be compoundable to a small extent, but not enough to deliver impressive results.

If so, then presumably the limiting factor would be the viability of the hair follicles.

ARI’s cell injections may reach a plateau of effectiveness because once they’ve reached all the miniaturized follicles that are still salvageable, it may be impossible for them to help the rest, which might be unsalvageable.

This limiting factor would possibly be the permanent desctruction of follicles so that as miniaturization progresses, most follicles become so small, quiescent and structurally disorganized that they can’t be recovered with cell injections.

If so then that’s very bad news for HM in general.

It wouldn’t rule out doing tissue engineering to create de novo follicles, but since normal HM is about regenerating existing miniaturized follicles via cell replenishment, then possibly ARI has hit a brick wall in that effort.

I’m not saying this as a fact, I’m just saying this is one possible inference.[/quote]

Or, to put it in my terms, “Nobody ever retakes any lost ground!”

There is a real problem here.

Every known MPB medication and experimental HM method people have ever tried has been stopped dead in its tracks at the same spot. Are we supposed to keep on believing that isn’t relevant?

But the HM industry is still hard at work trying to ignore their way past this problem.

How many more years will this go on? How many more treatments have to get stopped at exactly the same spot before the HM world starts asking why?

36

Viktor,

The issue I would take with what you’ve said here, is that it ignores the research by Dr. Cotsarelis that showed a clear deficit of progenitor cells (but not of stem cells) in balding follicles and balding areas of the scalp.

This indicates, to me, that the “root” of the problem is not so much DP cells and their function, but a lack of progenitor cells feeding into the population of DP cells.

DP cells and their function are affected, but only secondarily, because of the deficit of progenitor cells.

Restoring progenitor cells (either by eliminating or controlling impediments to their development, or by replenishing them from the outside), would be a logical way of correcting that.

I think we have to seek truth from known facts, experimental results, etc.

The problem with what you’re saying is that it doesn’t take note of the most recent research.

37

I also think that progenitor cells are the issue but even if you injected projenitor cells then the problem becomes getting them to go inside the follicle.

Roger_that did you see where Dr. Nigam is taking a close look at the microfollicle work done by gerd? Check this out:

http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-122040-page-0-category-1-order-last_answer.html

38

dude firstly the pictures are so old… Dr. Lauster had released such (if not exactly these) photographs around the same time he made his research public. It has nothing to do with “dr nigam taking a close look at the microfollicle work done by gerd”.

secondly, cotsarelis et al have made it absolutely clear that bald scalp is not stem cell deficient but merely lacking progenitor cells. You make it sound as though you are basing your beliefs on a hunch or pure speculation. I think it is safe to accept this as factual.

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by jarjarbinx[/postedby]
I also think that progenitor cells are the issue but even if you injected projenitor cells then the problem becomes getting them to go inside the follicle.

Roger_that did you see where Dr. Nigam is taking a close look at the microfollicle work done by gerd? Check this out:

http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-122040-page-0-category-1-order-last_answer.html
[/quote]

39

What? Cots figured out that it’s actual progenitor cells that are in short supply before I came up with the idea? Wow!

Just kidding of course. Of course I knew that Cots thought of this a short while back. I learnt it from reading Cots’s press-releases. But even though the evidence indicates that progenitor cells, rather than stem cells, are the key cells many scientists are still looking closely at stem cells rather than progenitor cells.

Also, the thought has crossed my mind that perhaps it is the so-called growth factors which turn stem cells into progenitor cells so that is why I’m so interested in the idea of having stem cells plus growth factors injected. If it isn’t the growth factors that morph stem cells into progenitor cells than what it is that does so?

[quote]dude firstly the pictures are so old… Dr. Lauster had released such (if not exactly these) photographs around the same time he made his research public. It has nothing to do with “dr nigam taking a close look at the microfollicle work done by gerd”.

secondly, cotsarelis et al have made it absolutely clear that bald scalp is not stem cell deficient but merely lacking progenitor cells. You make it sound as though you are basing your beliefs on a hunch or pure speculation. I think it is safe to accept this as factual.

[postedby]Originally Posted by jarjarbinx[/postedby]
I also think that progenitor cells are the issue but even if you injected projenitor cells then the problem becomes getting them to go inside the follicle.

Roger_that did you see where Dr. Nigam is taking a close look at the microfollicle work done by gerd? Check this out:

http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-122040-page-0-category-1-order-last_answer.html

[postedby]Originally Posted by hairman2[/postedby][/quote]