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Wait a minute ..hair stuck under the dermis


#1

From the thread below:
… the hairs are trying to shed at 21 days, before the cells are out of the dermis—thus causing an inflammatory reaction while you have a shed hair stuck under the dermis, and killing the newbie hair below it.

“The shedding causes an inflammatory response because the hairs are not poking throught the skin. If a needle is used to poke holes in the skin where the hairs are shedding, then the are able to shed and a new cycle starts.”

Could it be also that our favorite topicals don’t work for the same reason because the dermis is not letting hair through ?

Shall we poke holes through the skin ??


#2

There was a guy on another forum who experimented with “needling”…wonder how his experiments worked out.


#3

» There was a guy on another forum who experimented with “needling”…wonder
» how his experiments worked out.

Minoxidil supposedly has a slightly upping effect on Wnt signalling…needling would be stimulating wound healing…Ive wondered if someone was doing both whether or not some new hair would materialize or if the derma roller would be deep enough. ???


#4

Interesting about minoxidil… do you have a cite, benji? I always suspected the “increased bloodflow” explanation was a bit weak. As far as needling, I know it’s used for acne scars – the point is to use a needle (you can do it yourself, go to a derm, or a tattoo parlor) and the point is to break up the fibrous bands underneath the skin. This causes blood clotting below the skin but also breaks up bands that “tie down” parts of the skin that give the skin an uneven appearance. Now this CANNOT be what our experimenter is doing, can it???

» » There was a guy on another forum who experimented with
» “needling”…wonder
» » how his experiments worked out.
»
»
»
» Minoxidil supposedly has a slightly upping effect on Wnt
» signalling…needling would be stimulating wound
» healing…Ive wondered if someone was doing both whether or not
» some new hair would materialize or if the derma roller would be deep
» enough. ???


#5

I would think that needling would lead to further scarring.


#6

It was a poster called “free indeed” on this thread:

“great results, new treatment, please read” - started 17 Jun 06

Saturday June 17, 2006 3:33 PM

Have been waiting to share this and I have searched for something like this for 10 years now. I am 35 and have tried many topicals and herbal internal treatments with little success. I came across a treatment in Thailand and adapted it for the last 7 weeks and am seeing full area growback. This is in stages, but am seeing full thickness hairs on my temples that have been bare for 8 years now. The surrounding areas are nicely furring up and getting darker and longer.

My treatment is simple it is a using a very fine needle and gently poking the scalp with it once a week, and using 5% minoxidil twice daily. I have tried minoxidil at 2% before and had no results and it is not known for helping the temple area. All of my reported progress is in the front because I can closely monitor it. It seems that the crown is filling in also. The needle application is very shallow, and really doesn’t hurt me much. It is a lot like a good combing rather than injections. If bleeding occurs it is too deep.

I will follow up with more detailed posts, but here is my basic theory. I have had a hair transplant micro graft surgery. They cut out the donor area and put it on ice for hours and dice it up, cut into the recieving area, and the hairs grow back full strength. The scalp follicles have amazing recovery ability. I shave my beard everyday with harsh chemicals, probably removing the outer layer of skin and the hair keeps staying thick. The needle treatment only involves shallow penetration into the mesoderm. Originally my first treatment in Thailand the doctor called mesotherapy, a common process, but not for baldness. This includes micro injections of 5% minoxidil with a tiny needle 1000 times. She said that after 5 weekly treatments the patients never need to continue using minoxidil. She said it was the needle and the medicine doing the job. The needle opens the pores, stimulates the nerves, and increases blood flow.The redness lasts for only a half an hour and there is usually no soreness. My technique does not include injections.

So as a protection it is possible to work with a nurse or doctor on this project, but I easily do the procedure on myself. I am going to post this in sections so I do not exceed space limits and make sure it is conforming to the site format. I welcome commentary, this is the simplest, fastest, and cheapest thing I have found. I post now in hopes that this becomes a common treatment and it can save people years of frustration.

That was from “chrome” at hairlosshell a while back


#7

Here is the original article:

First Demonstration of New Hair Follicle Generation in an Animal Model

Implications for Treating Hair Loss, Skin Disorders, According to Penn Study

PHILADELPHIA, May 16 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ –

Researchers at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine have found that hair follicles in adult mice regenerate by re-awakening genes once active only in developing embryos. These findings provide unequivocal evidence for the first time that, like other animals such as newts and salamanders, mammals have the power to regenerate. These findings are published in the May 17 issue of Nature.

A better understanding of this process could lead to novel treatments for hair loss, other skin and hair disorders, and wounds.
“We showed that wound healing triggered an embryonic state in the skin which made it receptive to receiving instructions from wnt proteins,” says senior author George Cotsarelis, MD, Associate Professor of Dermatology.

“The wnts are a network of proteins implicated in hair-follicle development.”

Researchers previously believed that adult mammal skin could not regenerate hair follicles. In fact, investigators generally believe that
mammals had essentially no true regenerative qualities. (The liver can regenerate large portions, but it is not de novo regeneration; some of the original liver has to remain so that it can regenerate.)

In this study, researchers found that wound healing in a mouse model created an “embryonic window” of opportunity. Dormant embryonic molecular pathways were awakened, sending stem cells to the area of injury. Unexpectedly, the regenerated hair follicles originated from
non-hair-follicle stem cells.

“We’ve found that we can influence wound healing with wnts or other proteins that allow the skin to heal in a way that has less scarring and
includes all the normal structures of the skin, such as hair follicles and oil glands, rather than just a scar,” explains Cotsarelis.
By introducing more wnt proteins to the wound, the researchers found that they could take advantage of the embryonic genes to promote
hair-follicle growth, thus making skin regenerate instead of just repair.

Conversely by blocking wnt proteins, they also found that they could stop the production of hair follicles in healed skin.
Increased wnt signaling doubled the number of new hair follicles. This suggests that the embryonic window created by the wound-healing process can be used to manipulate hair-follicle regeneration, leading to novel ways to treat hair loss and hair overgrowth.

These findings go beyond just a possible treatment for male-pattern baldness. If researchers can effectively control hair growth, then they
could potentially find cures for people with hair and scalp disorders, such as scarring alopecia where the skin scars, and hair overgrowth.

This research was funded in part by the National Institute of Arthritis, Musculoskelatal and Skin Disease and the Pennsylvania Department
of Health. Other co-authors in addition to Cotsarelis are Mayumi Ito, Zaixin Yang, Thomas Andl, Chunhua Cui, Noori Kim, and Sarah E. Millar, all from Penn.

Cotsarelis and Ito are listed as inventors on a patent application related to hair-follicle neogenesis and owned by the University of
Pennsylvania. Cotsarelis also serves on the scientific advisory board and has equity in Follica, a start-up company that has licensed the patent from the University of Pennsylvania. Cotsarelis was also a co-founder of Follica.

This release and a related image can be viewed at http://www.pennhealth.com/news.

PENN Medicine is a $2.9 billion enterprise dedicated to the related missions of medical education, biomedical research, and high-quality
patient care. PENN Medicine consists of the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine (founded in 1765 as the nation’s first medical school) and the University of Pennsylvania Health System.

Penn’s School of Medicine is ranked #2 in the nation for receipt of NIH research funds; and ranked #3 in the nation in U.S. News & World Report’s most recent ranking of top research-oriented medical schools. Supporting 1,400 fulltime faculty and 700 students, the School of Medicine is recognized worldwide for its superior education and training of the next generation of physician-scientists and leaders of academic medicine.

The University of Pennsylvania Health System includes three hospitals, all of which have received numerous national patient-care honors [Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania; Pennsylvania Hospital, the nation’s first hospital; and Penn Presbyterian Medical Center]; a faculty practice; a primary-care provider network; two multispecialty satellite facilities; and home care and hospice.

SOURCE University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine


#8

IF they can make hair regenerate in a wound by getting more Wnt protiens therein…it would make sense to me to do it in donor area scalp after FUE holes are made so a new hair(s) would grow there while you moved a good hair up front.

Id be afraid that doing this up in the frontal scalp would just create another MPB hair. I suppose if you were on finasteride, it may give you and finasteride, minoxidil, and nizoral a second chance at keeping the new hair for some time thought. Its an “Outside” idea, but what the hell…kitchen sink.


#9

Hey benji,

You’re exactly right benji… not to put it too crudely, but Acell = Follica/Cotsarelis = needling with minoxidil. In all cases there is wounding that re-activates regenerative stem cell-like conditions and the WNT pathway. Thbe result is hair growth.

I’ve actually been trying to contact everybody associated with Follica, Inc to tell them about Acell. I seriously think a baldness cure could be put together in about a year based on combining Cotsarelis’ findings with the Acell matrix. Cotsarelis and his group want to wound the skin, thereby engendering stem cell-like conditions, and then apply a WNT promoter (amazingly, hair will grow with wounding alone, but you really need the promoter to achieve desired density). BUT… and this is why I think the Acell matrix is so f**king amazing… with Acell it appears a WNT promoter wouldn’t be needed because the matrix is sufficient to provide the scaffolding for new stem cells and thus new hair growth. With normal wounding the repair function takes over, so you need the WNT promoter.

And this Acell/wounding could EASILY be done on the MPB area. Remember the mice in Cotsarelis’ Nature study? They were genetically programmed to have bald areas, but their procedure grew actual hair. The point is that with stem cell-like conditions, the skin reverts de novo and acts as though the genetic programming for baldness never happened. However, I think the trick is to find the optimal wounding conditions that engender growth. This shouldn’t be too difficult, just trial and error, eh? Much easier than searching for the right WNT promoter in humans…

So… this is why I’d like to get a dermroller, an FUE patient, and some Acell matrix to conduct some experiments, lol… and we even have a volunteer for this procedure! Check out the post “Baldness Cure Now” post I put up earlier…

All the best,
BB

» IF they can make hair regenerate in a wound by getting more Wnt protiens
» therein…it would make sense to me to do it in donor area
» scalp after FUE holes are made so a new hair(s) would grow there while you
» moved a good hair up front.
»
»
» Id be afraid that doing this up in the frontal scalp would just create
» another MPB hair. I suppose if you were on finasteride, it may give you
» and finasteride, minoxidil, and nizoral a second chance at keeping the new
» hair for some time thought. Its an “Outside” idea, but what the
» hell…kitchen sink.


#10

Im thinking a WNT compound mixed with MINOX.


#11

That would be definitely worth trying… but the wounding appears crucial for creating stem cell-like conditions (I’m just basing this speculatively off the apparent links among Cotsarelis’ work, the Acell matrix, and needling with minox).

» Im thinking a WNT compound mixed with MINOX.


#12

I wonder how much injury is required? Simple dermal rustling or a full slash and gash to stimulate this reaction.


#13

I think that is THE question… if you use nothing, no protein promoter, no cellular scaffolding (i.e., Acell matrix), then it’s quite clear you need a gaping wound that is open for a quite a while so that stem-cell-like conditions form. But I’m still astounded that hair grows under such simple conditions… there was a debate about this in the 1950s, and the new hair growht was dismissed as hair that “migrated” from the edges of the wound. But now we know that is false, that simple wounding – nothing else – can create NEW hairs that are GENETICALLY RESISTANT to balding. Too bad we didn’t make that conclusion back in hte 1950s, eh? Then maybe baldness would have been cured…

Now, combine wounding with a protein topical or Acell matrix (or both), and we have a lot of possibilities. From my understanding that is what Follica, Inc is planning on doing (they will be doing initial studies in 2008 using ablative lasers and various protein promoters).

So… sorry to be long-winded but this is exciting to me… we don’t know what kind of wounding conditions are necessary in combination with other toolds/methods. The wounds might have to be quite exposed… or perhaps not!

» I wonder how much injury is required? Simple dermal rustling or a full
» slash and gash to stimulate this reaction.


#14

So, why does this not work in HT surgeries, when the skin is punctured? If this were the case, would’nt you see hairs growing around the edges of a graft?


#15

For all wounding there is a tension between regeneration (e.g., growing new skin with new hair) and repair (closing the wound quickly). Evolutionarily we’ve been designed to have repair functions that close up our wounds. So the problem with HT wounds is that they are too small and not exposed long enough for the regenerative action to occur. BUT perhaps a topical protein promoter and/or Acell matrix plus minimal FUE wounding would be enough. We don’t know…

Anecodally, I remember after the Cotsarelis et al. broke in May '07 that one guy mentioned how he had a 1 cm hole drilled into his head for some kind of neck brace. Well, after the brace was taken off he had a gaping wound for about 1 month… but then amazingly hairs grew in that area while the rest of his head remained bald… f**king amazing…

» So, why does this not work in HT surgeries, when the skin is punctured? If
» this were the case, would’nt you see hairs growing around the edges of a
» graft?


#16

Good point JTelcom.

Why would not the injuries from site making cause this… hell the strip excision has significant injury.

Let me ask you this… Has anyone ever hurt themselves caused a scar or on the leg or something and it grew hair inside the scar? In an area that did not have hair at all?

I have seen this.

Things that make you go hhmm.


#17

The addition of WNT-protiens to a wound is what the scientists did to get the mice-skin to repair itself in such a way as to re-organize itself into new follicles. It was not the wounding up there on its own, which should do nothing in and of itself. Both have to be there, and Im pretty certain that since the Folica team were talking about dermabrasion perhaps being “enough”, it would not have to be all that deep a wound, but do now know about the amount of surface area invovled. I guess I could read up on them and see if they have a site.


#18

Not quite right… I know it’s not to be believed, but wounding with nothing else can cause new hair follicles to grow. The Cotsarelis et al. article provides citations of this – all about 50 years old when scientists were debating this. Nobody believed that new hair could grow from wounds, so they concluded the hairs just “migrated” from the edge of wounds back in the 1950s. Not true, say Cotsarelis et al. I know, I’ll repeat it again b/c months later it still blows my mind away: all you need is an exposed wound that does not repair for a while and you will have NEW hair follicles. No WNT promoters, no Acell matrix, no propecia, no minox, NOTHING but a d*mn wound! Of course this hair is not cosmetically acceptable in terms of density… but that’s where the WNT protein comes in…

See, the point of the Cotsarelis et al. article was twofold: (a) wounding provides stem cell-like conditions that engender new follicle growth (my point above); (b) the new follicular growth is activated via the WNT protein pathway (which can be manipulated to change the density). But in no way is the Cotsarelis team saying that wounding is “enough”. Follica wants to use lasers to wound the skin AND then apply a WNT protein promoter.

» The addition of WNT-protiens to a wound is what the scientists did to get
» the mice-skin to repair itself in such a way as to re-organize itself into
» new follicles. It was not the wounding up there on its own, which should do
» nothing in and of itself. Both have to be there, and Im pretty certain that
» since the Folica team were talking about dermabrasion perhaps being
» “enough”, it would not have to be all that deep a wound, but do now know
» about the amount of surface area invovled. I guess I could read up on them
» and see if they have a site.


#19

Although I understand the wound healing topic, in the thread below the expiriment was to “poke a hole” above the follicle to give it space and access through the skin to the outside

Right?


#20

Yeah, that’s how the thread started out… but we were thinking that the needling could be stimulating wound-healing conditions and (with minox) signaling WNT proteins…

» Although I understand the wound healing topic, in the thread below the
» expiriment was to “poke a hole” above the follicle to give it space and
» access through the skin to the outside
»
» Right?