Hi every body,
I have reading about the pgd2 stuff and its relation to hair loss.
I was wondering is pgd2 has any relation to sebum or oily scalp in general but my English level does not help me to read scientific papers.
I found a paper that describes the relation between the Sebaceous Glands and the Prostaglandin.
"
On the other hand, Neufang et al (2001) have
shown that in a COX-2 overexpressing mouse, PG accumulation
occurs, the skin exhibits a preneoplastic phenotype,
and that sebaceous gland hyperplasia, increased
sebum levels, sparse coat of greasy hair, and hyperplasia of scale epidermis due to a disturbed program of epidermal
differentiation are present
"
paper
I have been wondering why minox dried my scalp and regrow some of my hair back. I know not all men suffering mpb have oily scalp but still not all men suffering mpb found similar success rates…
Do you think that if there is a relation between sebum and pgd2 then we could work on eliminating “internal sebum” (I mean reduce sebaceous gland production) and dry the scalp to restore some hair back?
I know some of posters may hate the theory relating sebum to mpb but there are too many questions about it
- Why minox dries your scalp?
- Why Keto creams works for some people (reduces sebum)?
- Why Tretinoin cream study showed regrowth in 58%? (also reduces sebum and works for acne)
The topic is not about sebum itself but if pgd2 is responsible for excessive sebum production!
I read this in one of the reports about this latest study.
Characteristic of the steps of baldness in humans, the mice who had applied levels of prostaglandin in their skin for purposes of the study, lost their hair, their follicles got smaller and the sebaceous gland got larger.
I remember reading a paper about this issue. The issue being that of hair shrinking while the oily sebatious gland expanding. Again we see the all too familiar Wnt protein popping up time and again.
Wnt sends mixed signals in the skin
Mitch Leslie
Osorio et al. reveal that Runx1 has opposing effects on the Wnt pathway in the two layers of the embryonic skin, thus ensuring that hair follicles have plenty of stem cells.
A hair follicle goes through cycles of growth, regression, and inactivity. Hair follicle stem cells (HFSCs) provide fresh cells for the follicle’s resurgence. The researchers previously showed that, in adult mice, Runx1 helps activate HFSCs and spurs them to divide. During embryonic development, Runx1 helps determine which cells will become hematopoetic stem cells that spawn new blood cells. Whether the protein performs a similar function for HFSCs during development was unknown.
Osorio et al. deleted Runx1 from either the epithelial or mesenchymal skin layers in embryonic mice. Loss of the protein from the skin’s epithelium only delayed the appearance of hair follicles and progenitors of adult HFSCs, suggesting that Runx1 in this layer isn’t essential for their development. Losing Runx1 from the mesenchyme, on the other hand, caused hair follicles to gradually degenerate and form oily cysts, indicating that the HFSCs adopted a sebaceous gland fate and failed to self-renew.
The Wnt signaling pathway orchestrates hair development. The team found that epithelial Runx1 revs up this pathway by boosting expression of Lef1, an activator of several Wnt-regulated genes. But in the mesenchyme, Runx1 quashed Wnt signaling. The researchers think that these opposing effects of Runx1 promote the origin and maintenance of HFSCs by controlling communication between the two skin layers.
Source : Paraspeckles may provide stress relief | Journal of Cell Biology | Rockefeller University Press
Thank you guys for the replies
I have been reading day and night and I have started to believe the following although I can be wrong of course
dht -> extra pgd2 -> attack sebaceous glands -> produces extra sebum
so anti-androgenic has effects in sebaceous glands as well as retinol. Some women claim that retinol grow unwanted facial hair after months of using retinol cream. I think retinol pretends the sebaceous glands somehow and may fix them.
The bald spot may have infected sebaceous glands. Fin is about maintaining hair (reducing dht/pgd2) while minox regrow hair (maybe fixing sebaceous glands… not known!!)
Going older (lower testosterone) does not stop baldness which could mean that the infected sebaceous glands don’t recover by blocking dht only. On the other side, we start to loose hair at 14 or 15 when we develop acne. This makes me think that extra Testosterone -> extra dht-> extra pgd2-> causes infection to sebaceous glands that need “solution” to recover them.
We didn’t notice bald spot at the age of 15 but the “sebaceous glands” have already been infected and therefore we loose more hair at older age because other “sebaceous glands” receive infection by time. I am saying that infected “sebaceous glands” keeps working in a wrong why for period of time before we notice the hair loss.
Blocking pgd2 may work just like fin but we still need to fix the damaged sebaceous glands.
I will focus my search on sebaceous glands in a hope I find something that can fix damaged one if this theory is correct.
» I will focus my search on sebaceous glands in a hope I find something that
» can fix damaged one if this theory is correct.
It is. I prepare a post about this issue - at least, about what I know, but I will post it in another (related) thread which I started today.
» Osorio et al. deleted Runx1 from either the epithelial or mesenchymal skin
» layers in embryonic mice. Loss of the protein from the skin’s epithelium
» only delayed the appearance of hair follicles and progenitors of adult
» HFSCs, suggesting that Runx1 in this layer isn’t essential for their
» development. Losing Runx1 from the mesenchyme, on the other hand, caused
» hair follicles to gradually degenerate and form oily cysts, indicating that
» the HFSCs adopted a sebaceous gland fate and failed to self-renew.
[…]
» Source : Paraspeckles may provide stress relief | Journal of Cell Biology | Rockefeller University Press
This explains (of course more scientific) what I already explained here…
http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-98977-page-0-category-1-order-last_answer.html
»
» dht -> extra pgd2 -> attack sebaceous glands -> produces extra sebum
»
»
i do beleive the sebcaceous gland is linked too, undeniably.
It could be that the dht is being overloaded and unable to be filtered out in the scalp area. The body becomes allergic to the excess dht in the scalp region, so immune response/iflamation/pgd2 is set off.
Acne has a similar mechanism, androgens are thought to over produce sebum in teenage years too, it could be that going bald is an old mans form of acne, which again is said to be partly genetic (imo, the sentivity of sebcaceous glands) and partly enviromental (dairy, fats aggrevates the condition).
Propecia may well be acting on the sebcaceous gland!
If you can keep your scalp dht levels healthy during your early years by regulating the amount of dht in your scalp via regulating the sebcaceous gland you will not get allergic to dht in the future, hence not go bald.
@Iron_Man thanks for the info…
@gutted2: I am not here to doubt reducing dht effectiveness but to find another solution that works on sebaceous glands directly like skin products including Vitamin A, retinol…or anything natural stuff
I have kept away from fin beacuse my friend lost erection. I would rather goes bald than making the risk… A friend case not someone you read his story over the net. A friend who suffer now from mpb and sexual problems
Accutane shrinks “sebaceous glands” and harm them in a way that can leads to hair thinning and and some reports says it might lead to permanent hair loss.
I guess if we can recover “sebaceous glands” we may regrow some hair back or at least get rid of fin.
» @Iron_Man thanks for the info…
»
» @gutted2: I am not here to doubt reducing dht effectiveness but to find
» another solution that works on sebaceous glands directly like skin products
» including Vitamin A, retinol…or anything natural stuff
»
» I have kept away from fin beacuse my friend lost erection. I would rather
» goes bald than making the risk… A friend case not someone you read his
» story over the net. A friend who suffer now from mpb and sexual problems
»
» --------
»
» Accutane shrinks “sebaceous glands” and harm them in a way that can leads
» to hair thinning and and some reports says it might lead to permanent hair
» loss.
»
» I guess if we can recover “sebaceous glands” we may regrow some hair back
» or at least get rid of fin.
yeah i understand what your saying, i agree with you.
baldness may be a sebcaceous gland disease.
I am not sure the action of PG-D2 is fully understood, the research mainly seemed to say that PG-D2 was at a much higher concentration in the area of hair loss.
Minox action is believed to be to increase level of PGE2.
It seems that Minox in conjunction with an PG-D2 inhibitor might work together to reduce hair loss or allow regrowth.
I regrew decent hair on Minox/Proscar/Nizoral and am addition a topical of Evodia Rutaecarpa as a natural way to reduce PG-D2. There is research that suggests Evodia might achieve this ahead of the drugs that maybe 5 years out.
@BernieTheBolt
I am happy for you that Proscar worked for you without sides. But many men have strong sides from Proscar.
I am just wondering if mpb is a sebcaceous gland disease then we can work on treating infected sebaceous glands instead missing up with the testosterone
Comedones, Milia, Acne, Seborrhea, Rosacea, A steatoma, Asteatosis and A furuncle are all considered Sebaceous Glands diseases and there could be something like dht or pgd2 causing them but no one care as long they can be treated by treating the “Sebaceous Glands”!!
Some of these diseases can not be treated without medicine… they are permanent infection without treating the sebaceous glands beneath them.
There is no answer for the question: why reducing dht does not grow hair back? maybe the sebaceous glands are infected and need a cure!
»
»
» There is no answer for the question: why reducing dht does not grow hair
» back? maybe the sebaceous glands are infected and need a cure!
the follicle is either wounded or it needs to be primed into growing back.
During Telogen to anagen, regernaration takes place but after the last minitarisation it does not regenerate, possibley because of the immune system.
Handle the immune system first, and use a topical growth stimulant like minoxidil to get it in to the anagen phase, it may start growing again, but i dont think you need to use minoxidil for the rest of your life just until the follicle gets to the anagen phase.
Wonder_X:
I don’t think that anyone believes that DHT is the only cause of hairloss, and certainly I think it is dangerous to block 100% conversion of T to DHT.
What is certainly true is that reducing DHT does work for a lot of people to some degree. I can tell you that after gaining a lot of hair back I boosted my testosterone (sports performance) and noticed an immediate impact on my hair (a lot of loss).
I don’t know anything about sebaceous gland disease and I have not seen research on it.
The new research on PG-D2 does not explain mechanism but just says high PG-D2 concentration is bad.
NET:
- High DHT is linked to hair loss
- Minox probably works by increasing PGE2
- Nizoral appears to impact PG as a primary mechanism
- High PG-D2 is related to hair loss
For me adding something topically to inhibit PG-D2, whatever the mechanism, seems logical based on the new research.
Finally, the prescription for growing eyelashes (female) is also a PG mechanism and this looks to be another indication that we can fight hair loss by focusing on PGs in addition or instead of a pure focus on DHT.
» @BernieTheBolt
»
» I am happy for you that Proscar worked for you without sides. But many men
» have strong sides from Proscar.
»
»
» I am just wondering if mpb is a sebcaceous gland disease then we can work
» on treating infected sebaceous glands instead missing up with the
» testosterone
»
» Comedones, Milia, Acne, Seborrhea, Rosacea, A steatoma, Asteatosis and A
» furuncle are all considered Sebaceous Glands diseases and there could be
» something like dht or pgd2 causing them but no one care as long they can be
» treated by treating the “Sebaceous Glands”!!
»
» Some of these diseases can not be treated without medicine… they are
» permanent infection without treating the sebaceous glands beneath them.
»
»
» There is no answer for the question: why reducing dht does not grow hair
» back? maybe the sebaceous glands are infected and need a cure!
@gutted
Unfortunately the hair-cycle keeps running, so hair does not stay in anagen. This is why Minox is a life sentence!
Each hair cycles thru the phases then falls out and a new hair grows. The cycle effect is why I can never be a rock star and grow long hair - well that and my voice sucks.
» »
» »
» » There is no answer for the question: why reducing dht does not grow
» hair
» » back? maybe the sebaceous glands are infected and need a cure!
»
» the follicle is either wounded or it needs to be primed into growing back.
»
» During Telogen to anagen, regernaration takes place but after the last
» minitarisation it does not regenerate, possibley because of the immune
» system.
» Handle the immune system first, and use a topical growth stimulant like
» minoxidil to get it in to the anagen phase, it may start growing again, but
» i dont think you need to use minoxidil for the rest of your life just until
» the follicle gets to the anagen phase.
@gutted2
So there is a strong believe the the follicle is damaged or wounded.
The immune system is not certain, you use the word possibility in the sentence. Of course I don’t claim is wrong but I want to understand backward process from sebum and down and not from testosterone/immune system and up.
@BernieTheBolt
It is known that testosterone plays role in mpb as you described. I don’t care about where the mpb starts beacuse all men produce testosterone but not all suffer mpb
There must be something wrong at the end from sebum and downward.
Using the word “probably” for minox is not the answer. PGE2 and PGD2 or whatever may infect sebaceous glands with something that can be fixed.
I don’t want to wait 5 or 10 years to conclude researches on pgd2 which was already known years ago but for unknown reasons ignored.
I advice you to read about disorders of the Sebaceous Glands and related diseases.
Tretinoin (alone) which believed to control or fix something in the Sebaceous Glands proved to grow hair in a study long time ago.
Unfortunately I don’t think it is a sebaceous gland disease, it is GENETICS!
If your body is programmed to respond to certain messenger signals then all you can do is to try to remove the signals. So with T/DHT the focus is on reducing DHT (the messenger hormone that triggers the genetic response) or it is on blocking the site where the receptor is delivered (at the cell).
This is very similar to the evolution of cancer meds. e.g. the industry moved from Tamoxifen to Arimidex - Arimidex is a SERM (a Specific Estrogen Receptor Modulator).
Ideally with hair loss we would have something that worked locally at the hair follicle to avoid triggering hair loss. Until we get there all we can do is tackle the systemic symptoms (DHT, PG-D2, etc).
Might sebaceous glands or inflammation be significant, of course, but I haven’t seen research that is as compelling. And remember that Minox was found by accident so our understanding is very primitive.
» @gutted2
»
» So there is a strong believe the the follicle is damaged or wounded.
»
» The immune system is not certain, you use the word possibility in the
» sentence. Of course I don’t claim is wrong but I want to understand
» backward process from sebum and down and not from testosterone/immune
» system and up.
»
»
» @BernieTheBolt
»
» It is known that testosterone plays role in mpb as you described. I don’t
» care about where the mpb starts beacuse all men produce testosterone but
» not all suffer mpb
»
» There must be something wrong at the end from sebum and downward.
»
» Using the word “probably” for minox is not the answer. PGE2 and PGD2 or
» whatever may infect sebaceous glands with something that can be fixed.
»
» I don’t want to wait 5 or 10 years to conclude researches on pgd2 which was
» already known years ago but for unknown reasons ignored.
»
» I advice you to read about disorders of the Sebaceous Glands and related
» diseases.
»
» Tretinoin (alone) which believed to control or fix something in the
» Sebaceous Glands proved to grow hair in a study long time ago.
» Unfortunately I don’t think it is a sebaceous gland disease, it is
» GENETICS!
»
» If your body is programmed to respond to certain messenger signals then all
» you can do is to try to remove the signals. So with T/DHT the focus is on
» reducing DHT (the messenger hormone that triggers the genetic response) or
» it is on blocking the site where the receptor is delivered (at the cell).
»
» This is very similar to the evolution of cancer meds. e.g. the industry
» moved from Tamoxifen to Arimidex - Arimidex is a SERM (a Specific Estrogen
» Receptor Modulator).
»
» Ideally with hair loss we would have something that worked locally at the
» hair follicle to avoid triggering hair loss. Until we get there all we can
» do is tackle the systemic symptoms (DHT, PG-D2, etc).
»
» Might sebaceous glands or inflammation be significant, of course, but I
» haven’t seen research that is as compelling. And remember that Minox was
» found by accident so our understanding is very primitive.
»
I don’t have enough info to talk about genetic diseases. Genetics is not my concern… if there is something to fix my hair then **** the genes!!!
But since how Minox works is not known, you can not proof “messenger signals” as the only solution or just throw it on genes.
How true that Accutane may cause permanent hair loss in people who don’t have mpb in family?
» @gutted2
»
» So there is a strong believe the the follicle is damaged or wounded.
»
» The immune system is not certain, you use the word possibility in the
» sentence. Of course I don’t claim is wrong but I want to understand
» backward process from sebum and down and not from testosterone/immune
» system and up.
»
»
this is just me thoerizing, there is no evidence to suggest what i am saying is right.
the immune system is certainly involved, immunosurpressive drugs grow hair, but whether the growth of hair is through immune surpression or by other means is not certain.
But what i notice is when my scalp is dry, i dont get no itch and i lose virtually no hair.
When my scalp is oily, i itch like crazy and i lose alot of hair.
» But what i notice is when my scalp is dry, i dont get no itch and i lose
» virtually no hair.
»
» When my scalp is oily, i itch like crazy and i lose alot of hair.
I’ve noticed a correlation as well. What can we do to prevent our scalp from getting oily.
recent study just came out showing that topical THYME helps with acne by reducing sebum, it is also a cox-2 inhibitor and its cheap.