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Scalp wounding and eventual effects


#1

I’ve got an anecdote I’d like to relay:

After two dermabrasions in the last 8 months, I’m beginning to think maybe it could have affected the MPB susceptibility in those areas in a positive way even if nothing really significant regrew.

I’ve way reduced my Finasteride dose for a couple weeks lately, and I swear that the once-wounded areas seem a bit less inflamed than the rest of my MPB area. The scalp tingling/irritation isn’t gone in the wounded areas but I wonder if it might be less.

What really makes me suspect something is the location. I wounded in my receded temples area. This was the same area that Finasteride gave some moderate regrowth (read: cosmetically visible but not cosmetically significant) to last year. You’d think these areas would be absolutely Ground Zero for the MPB attack again as soon as the androgens came rushing back in. But now I swear my scalp is actually a bit more inflamed BEHIND those areas than on them. I don’t see how that makes sense unless the experimentation did something. The difference is certainly not very significant at all, but I think it’s there.

It leads me back to what I’ve been vaguely thinking for a while now - That we’re underestimating the effects of just dermabrasion/wounding alone (at least if it’s done deep enough). I’m really starting to think that several good hard rounds of dermabrasion/chemical peels might produce results at least as good as a lot of the offbeat MPB treatments do.

It’s not exactly HM yet, but it’s better than nothing and it doesn’t kill your sex drive.


#2

Did you do it with sand paper?

Thanks.


#3

I’m really starting to think that
» several good hard rounds of dermabrasion/chemical peels might produce
» results at least as good as a lot of the offbeat MPB treatments do.

I have areas that I have sandpapered at least 4 or 5 times since june and I have not seen any effect at all. No gain, no slowing down. And trust me, I went deep. My skin is still discolored from my first attempt in June.


#4

» I have areas that I have sandpapered at least 4 or 5 times since june and
» I have not seen any effect at all. No gain, no slowing down. And trust me,
» I went deep. My skin is still discolored from my first attempt in June.

discolored as in “got lighter or darker” or has different colored spots on it?


#5

» » I have areas that I have sandpapered at least 4 or 5 times since june
» and
» » I have not seen any effect at all. No gain, no slowing down. And trust
» me,
» » I went deep. My skin is still discolored from my first attempt in June.
»
» discolored as in “got lighter or darker” or has different colored spots on
» it?

a bit darker. like a sunburn. It has faded over time but it I can still see the line. I dont think other people notice though.


#6

As you all know, I’ve sanded heavily in my past attempts. But when I peeled from those attempts, the peeling did not seem to be all over the scalp or uniform in any way.
I’ve done a tca chemical peel this time and I did five consecutive passes (apply, leave for five minutes until it self neutralises and then apply the next pass). This time, the WHOLE of the scalp has peeled and I mean in HUGE pieces. One piece of skin that came away was about 4 inches in diameter. My previous wounding attempts were nowhere near as thorough and comprehensive as this.
I’m currently applying topical gefitinib (donated by Mike Walters), the noggin growth factors (also contains keramin 2 which inhibits DKK-1 and thus allows upregulation of wnt), copper peptides, tacrolimus for topical immunosuppression and I’m taking diphenhydramine at night as the anti-histamine component. I’m also applying emu oil. All of these topicals are applied separately and with at least an hour between the different compounds.
My previous hair growth was patchy and maybe followed the patchiness of the actual areas which peeled. Now the whole area has peeled to a good depth so let’s see if I get anything worth posting about.


#7

» As you all know, I’ve sanded heavily in my past attempts. But when I peeled
» from those attempts, the peeling did not seem to be all over the scalp or
» uniform in any way.
» I’ve done a tca chemical peel this time and I did five consecutive passes
» (apply, leave for five minutes until it self neutralises and then apply the
» next pass). This time, the WHOLE of the scalp has peeled and I mean in HUGE
» pieces. One piece of skin that came away was about 4 inches in diameter. My
» previous wounding attempts were nowhere near as thorough and comprehensive
» as this.
» I’m currently applying topical gefitinib (donated by Mike Walters), the
» noggin growth factors (also contains keramin 2 which inhibits DKK-1 and
» thus allows upregulation of wnt), copper peptides, tacrolimus for topical
» immunosuppression and I’m taking diphenhydramine at night as the
» anti-histamine component. I’m also applying emu oil. All of these topicals
» are applied separately and with at least an hour between the different
» compounds.
» My previous hair growth was patchy and maybe followed the patchiness of
» the actual areas which peeled. Now the whole area has peeled to a good
» depth so let’s see if I get anything worth posting about.

What I tell ya’ about multiple layers of tca peeling? 5 layers, that should do it. Now can you see with people doing 1-3 layers on a small test area just wouldn’t do? If you screw this part up the rest of the experiment is useless. I hope you are using cream based tacro and not vaseline based. I made this mistake and my scalp was a grease pit because of it. Good luck and I will be looking for your updates.


#8

» What I tell ya’ about multiple layers of tca peeling? 5 layers, that
» should do it. Now can you see with people doing 1-3 layers on a small test
» area just wouldn’t do? If you screw this part up the rest of the
» experiment is useless. I hope you are using cream based tacro and not
» vaseline based. I made this mistake and my scalp was a grease pit because
» of it. Good luck and I will be looking for your updates.

I’m using ointment which is probably vaseline-based as it IS greasy. I’m willing to put up with this for the application period anyway. No bad smell from the dmso as yet and I’ve probably got enough of your compound to apply for another ten days yet. I’ve re-read the patent (the 2008 version of it) and it specifically mentions several times, the TOPICAL application of a small molecule EGFR inhibitor. It also mentions concentrations of said inhibitor can be as low as 0.0001% so there is a chance that even extremely low percentage solutions may work when applied topically. Like you say, the other thing is the wounding itself. It has to be a large area and probably deeper than most people are willing to chance going . I’m convinced that topically IS the way to go for the main components of the compound.


#9

» » What I tell ya’ about multiple layers of tca peeling? 5 layers, that
» » should do it. Now can you see with people doing 1-3 layers on a small
» test
» » area just wouldn’t do? If you screw this part up the rest of the
» » experiment is useless. I hope you are using cream based tacro and not
» » vaseline based. I made this mistake and my scalp was a grease pit
» because
» » of it. Good luck and I will be looking for your updates.
»
» I’m using ointment which is probably vaseline-based as it IS greasy. I’m
» willing to put up with this for the application period anyway. No bad smell
» from the dmso as yet and I’ve probably got enough of your compound to apply
» for another ten days yet. I’ve re-read the patent (the 2008 version of it)
» and it specifically mentions several times, the TOPICAL application of a
» small molecule EGFR inhibitor. It also mentions concentrations of said
» inhibitor can be as low as 0.0001% so there is a chance that even extremely
» low percentage solutions may work when applied topically. Like you say, the
» other thing is the wounding itself. It has to be a large area and probably
» deeper than most people are willing to chance going . I’m convinced that
» topically IS the way to go for the main components of the compound.

Remember I mentioned getting hives as a possible side effect. Well, this is what I’ve been getting lately at nights and it could turn up anywhere on the body. I’ve yet to get any on the face yet. It is very minor and benydryl fixes the problem. I found another way to aleviate this problem. I did hard cardio on a stationary bike today to sweat it out and guess what … no hives. I’m guessing that sweating it out helps eliminate the toxins in the body. It is just my guess. I’m looking at old wedding photos a year ago and my island has definitely got wider. The experiment is slowly working its magic. I might do another run at this in about 2 months. Topical is definitely the way to go imho.


#10

» » What I tell ya’ about multiple layers of tca peeling? 5 layers, that
» » should do it. Now can you see with people doing 1-3 layers on a small
» test
» » area just wouldn’t do? If you screw this part up the rest of the
» » experiment is useless. I hope you are using cream based tacro and not
» » vaseline based. I made this mistake and my scalp was a grease pit
» because
» » of it. Good luck and I will be looking for your updates.
»
» I’m using ointment which is probably vaseline-based as it IS greasy. I’m
» willing to put up with this for the application period anyway. No bad smell
» from the dmso as yet and I’ve probably got enough of your compound to apply
» for another ten days yet. I’ve re-read the patent (the 2008 version of it)
» and it specifically mentions several times, the TOPICAL application of a
» small molecule EGFR inhibitor. It also mentions concentrations of said
» inhibitor can be as low as 0.0001% so there is a chance that even extremely
» low percentage solutions may work when applied topically. Like you say, the
» other thing is the wounding itself. It has to be a large area and probably
» deeper than most people are willing to chance going . I’m convinced that
» topically IS the way to go for the main components of the compound.

It is already dissolved. You can double what you have left by adding some more everclear and ppg if you like. The concentration will be lower obviously but if it can be as low as you say…you have nothing to lose and more days added. You can just add everclear if that is what you have but it will evaporate much faster. DMSO in the concentration I sent ya’ is about 23% which I think is plenty to get that through your skin. People testing this on a dime or quarter size area with 1 or 2 layer peel will meet eventual failure.


#11

From the Patent:

Anti-inflammatory agents In certain embodiments, an antiinflammtory agent can be used in the compositions, methods, and kits of the invention. Useful antiinflammtory agents include, without limitation, Non- Steroidal Anti-Inflammtory Drugs (NSAIDs) (e.g., naproxen sodium, diclofenac sodium, diclofenac potassium, aspirin, sulindac, diflunisal, piroxicam, indomethacin, ibuprofen, nabumetone, choline magnesium trisalicylate, sodium salicylate, salicylsalicylic acid (salsalate), fenoprofen, flurbiprofen, ketoprofen, meclofenamate sodium, meloxicam, oxaprozin, sulindac, and tolmetin), COX-2 inhibitors (e.g., rofecoxib, celecoxib, valdecoxib, and lumiracoxib), and [color=green]corticosteroids (e.g., alclometasone dipropionate, amcinonide, betamethasone dipropionate,

betamethasone valerate, clobetasol propionate, desonide, desoximetasone, dexamethasone, diflorasone diacetate, flucinolone acetonide, flumethasone, fluocinonide, flurandrenolide, halcinonide, halobetasol propionate, hydrocortisone butyrate, hydrocortisone valerate, methylprednisolone, mometasone fiiroate, prednisolone, or triamcinolone acetonide).
Imm unosuppressants

In certain embodiments, a nonsteroidal immunosuppressant can be used in the compositions, methods, and kits of the invention. Suitable immunosuppressants include cyclosporine, tacrolimus, rapamycin, everolimus, and pimecrolimus.

Cal, I looked around on google a bit and a couple of those corticosteroids are used for alopecia areata. They inhibit T-cell responses. I haven’t looked to see which ones have been administered with dermabrasion, but that is likely what happened with the de noveau follicle formation that Kligman described in Acne patients. Im guessing hydrocortisone.


#12

» I’ve got an anecdote I’d like to relay:
»
»
» After two dermabrasions in the last 8 months, I’m beginning to think
» maybe it could have affected the MPB susceptibility in those areas in a
» positive way even if nothing really significant regrew.

»
»
» I’ve way reduced my Finasteride dose for a couple weeks lately, and I
» swear that the once-wounded areas seem a bit less inflamed than the rest of
» my MPB area. The scalp tingling/irritation isn’t gone in the wounded areas
» but I wonder if it might be less.
»
» What really makes me suspect something is the location. I wounded in my
» receded temples area. This was the same area that Finasteride gave some
» moderate regrowth (read: cosmetically visible but not cosmetically
» significant) to last year. You’d think these areas would be absolutely
» Ground Zero for the MPB attack again as soon as the androgens came rushing
» back in. But now I swear my scalp is actually a bit more inflamed BEHIND
» those areas than on them. I don’t see how that makes sense unless the
» experimentation did something. The difference is certainly not very
» significant at all, but I think it’s there.
»
»
»
»
» It leads me back to what I’ve been vaguely thinking for a while now -
» That we’re underestimating the effects of just dermabrasion/wounding alone
» (at least if it’s done deep enough). I’m really starting to think that
» several good hard rounds of dermabrasion/chemical peels might produce
» results at least as good as a lot of the offbeat MPB treatments do.

»
»
» It’s not exactly HM yet, but it’s better than nothing and it doesn’t kill
» your sex drive.

I’m thinking along the same lines as u. I just need to recover fully from my last attempt first b4 I start again.


#13

»
» I’m thinking along the same lines as u. I just need to recover fully from
» my last attempt first b4 I start again.

With a 5 layer peel I wouldn’t do it until maybe six months after your last attempt.


#14

» From the Patent:
»
»
» Anti-inflammatory agents In certain embodiments, an antiinflammtory agent
» can be used in the compositions, methods, and kits of the invention. Useful
» antiinflammtory agents include, without limitation, Non- Steroidal
» Anti-Inflammtory Drugs (NSAIDs) (e.g., naproxen sodium, diclofenac sodium,
» diclofenac potassium, aspirin, sulindac, diflunisal, piroxicam,
» indomethacin, ibuprofen, nabumetone, choline magnesium trisalicylate,
» sodium salicylate, salicylsalicylic acid (salsalate), fenoprofen,
» flurbiprofen, ketoprofen, meclofenamate sodium, meloxicam, oxaprozin,
» sulindac, and tolmetin), COX-2 inhibitors (e.g., rofecoxib, celecoxib,
» valdecoxib, and lumiracoxib), and
» [color=green]corticosteroids (e.g., alclometasone
» dipropionate, amcinonide, betamethasone dipropionate,
»
» betamethasone valerate, clobetasol propionate, desonide, desoximetasone,
» dexamethasone, diflorasone diacetate, flucinolone acetonide, flumethasone,
» fluocinonide, flurandrenolide, halcinonide, halobetasol propionate,
» hydrocortisone butyrate, hydrocortisone valerate, methylprednisolone,
» mometasone fiiroate, prednisolone, or triamcinolone
» acetonide).
» Imm unosuppressants

»
» In certain embodiments, a nonsteroidal immunosuppressant can be used in
» the compositions, methods, and kits of the invention. Suitable
» immunosuppressants include cyclosporine, tacrolimus, rapamycin, everolimus,
» and pimecrolimus.
»
»
»
»
»
»
»
» Cal, I looked around on google a bit and a couple of those corticosteroids
» are used for alopecia areata. They inhibit T-cell responses. I haven’t
» looked to see which ones have been administered with dermabrasion, but that
» is likely what happened with the de noveau follicle formation that Kligman
» described in Acne patients. Im guessing hydrocortisone.

http://www.hairloss-research.org/UpdateTopicalRetinAandBethametasone10-08.html

Hydrocortisone would be the safest I think it is also used in Promox. This Dr. in the link used Bethametasone though. And I think Dr. Lee on special request also mixes Bethametasone with his Minox.

And from personal experience I know it has a profound positive effect on my scalp and hair.

But I guess that also depends on what level immune system is involved in each individual. In my case it was the biggest player so stopping it gave immediate break to my poor follicles :slight_smile:


#15

Hairlossisevil,

I read a bit about the history of corticosteroids on wiki. Dr. Albert Kligman noted that he saw some de noveau hair follicle formation on some acne dermabrasion patients back in the seventies. Cortisone and/or hydrocortisone was about the only corticosteroid around back then seemingly. I bet that is what docs back then put on the abrasions. I also imagine they’d put it on the abrasion soon after the skin was abraded. One could almost certainly dissolve a little egf-antagonist within the cream.

It may be worth trying on someone’s shoulder or nape of their neck in small quarter-sized circles.

Ive seen a patent for hydrocortisone/minoxidl for androgenic alopecia and the patent authors claimed in their study, hyrocortisone/minox together outperformed minoxidil alone. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0357630.html

"The present invention is seen more by fully the examples given below.

Example 1

Fifteen males with early alopecia were treated with a combination of 2% minoxidil and 1% hydrocortisone in a hydroalcoholic vehicle. The subjects were shampooed weekly and hairs were counted after filtration. Fewer hairs were observed to be shed as treatment progressed. Hair regrowth has been substantially better than with minoxidil alone in comparable cases. The longest period of treatment is 6 months. Hair loss has virtually stopped in all subjects.

Example 2

Twenty-six young-adult, balding white males were treated for at least five months with a hydroalcoholic solution containing: (1) 3% minoxidil; and (2) 2.5% hydrocortisone. These subjects were in an early stage of baldness, not exceeding 51 mm (2 in) in diameter over the vertex.

The combination formulation stimulated hair growth in these subjects within three months. Most of the subjects volunteered comments of surprise that enhancement could be seen as early as two months. These results were compared with the results of a study at the same clinic of 50 patients using 3% minoxidil alone. In the opinion of the investigator, hair growth was seen sooner and on a greater proportion of patients in the group treated with the combination of minoxidil and hydrocortisone. "


#16

» Hairlossisevil,
»
» I read a bit about the history of corticosteroids on wiki. Dr. Albert
» Kligman noted that he saw some de noveau hair follicle formation on some
» acne dermabrasion patients back in the seventies. Cortisone and/or
» hydrocortisone was about the only corticosteroid around back then
» seemingly. I bet that is what docs back then put on the abrasions. I also
» imagine they’d put it on the abrasion soon after the skin was abraded. One
» could almost certainly dissolve a little egf-antagonist within the cream.
»
» It may be worth trying on someone’s shoulder or nape of their neck in
» small quarter-sized circles.
»
»
» Ive seen a patent for hydrocortisone/minoxidl for androgenic alopecia and
» the patent authors claimed in their study, hyrocortisone/minox together
» outperformed minoxidil alone.
» http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0357630.html
»
»
» "The present invention is seen more by fully the examples
» given below.
»
» Example 1
»
» Fifteen males with early alopecia were treated with a combination of 2%
» minoxidil and 1% hydrocortisone in a hydroalcoholic vehicle. The subjects
» were shampooed weekly and hairs were counted after filtration. Fewer hairs
» were observed to be shed as treatment progressed. Hair regrowth has been
» substantially better than with minoxidil alone in comparable cases. The
» longest period of treatment is 6 months. Hair loss has virtually stopped in
» all subjects.
»
» Example 2
»
» Twenty-six young-adult, balding white males were treated for at least five
» months with a hydroalcoholic solution containing: (1) 3% minoxidil; and (2)
» 2.5% hydrocortisone. These subjects were in an early stage of baldness, not
» exceeding 51 mm (2 in) in diameter over the vertex.
»
» The combination formulation stimulated hair growth in these subjects
» within three months. Most of the subjects volunteered comments of surprise
» that enhancement could be seen as early as two months. These results were
» compared with the results of a study at the same clinic of 50 patients
» using 3% minoxidil alone. In the opinion of the investigator, hair growth
» was seen sooner and on a greater proportion of patients in the group
» treated with the combination of minoxidil and hydrocortisone. "

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6344448/fulltext.html

Here is the patent for retin-a + betamethasone with examples.


#17

The claims in these patents are too large not to have included photographs. All the hair growing back on the guy with the scalp reduction should have been on the evening news. Thats what makes me so apprehensive about “believing” in this kind of thing.

I wish some entity would test them and measure the results.


#18

Hi Baccy,

I am considering doing a peeling on my scalp to try an idea.

I have two question if you are so kind to answer:

  1. What is the concentration of the TCA you have used. I think it goes from 10 to 35%.
  2. Are you sure that none of the existing hair has been damaged?

Thanks.


#19

» Hi Baccy,
»
» I am considering doing a peeling on my scalp to try an idea.
»
» I have two question if you are so kind to answer:
»
» 1. What is the concentration of the TCA you have used. I think it goes
» from 10 to 35%.
» 2. Are you sure that none of the existing hair has been damaged?
»
» Thanks.

I’m not baccy but… use 20% - 30% and it does not damage existing hairs. Apply with an eye dropper and use a rubber gloves to gently rub each layer in right after application. Sanding gives too much of an ununiform results.


#20

Hi,

searching in amazon.com for tca I see that there is tca20% and tca30% but not tca 20-30%.

For instance this is 30% http://www.amazon.com/Chemical-Peel-Wrinkle-removal-Freckles/dp/B000VIDKXU/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1231174039&sr=8-2

Which one did you buy?

Thanks.