Samumed is about to start a supplemental phase 2

Cal, Firstly, Samumed has not just gone as far as phase 2. Samumed has now
going beyond the original phase 2. It is now starting a supplemental phase 2
and If Samumed gets sufficient bio-markers from this supplemental phase 2
study then they could submit those biomarkers to the FDA in lieu of a phase
3 study. This means that the supplemental phase 2 study that they’re now
embarking on could be the equivalent of a phase 3 study.

Secondly, I applied RU topically and grew almost a full head of hair. The
reason I stopped is that I started developing gyno and the RU stopped working
after about 1 year or so. So I know that Roger-that is wrong. It would
definitely be possible to create a liquid topical that would grow a good
amount of hair.

Castration doesn’t even regrow very much lost hair. Don’t tell me that a good AA topical will do more than that.

Maybe you got major-league regrowth by being a great responder with recent loss, etc. But your success is not consistent & repeatable for everyone because its not really reversing the MPB process. What you had was probably just a particularly good “rebound” type of recovery. You probably would have gradually regressed back to baseline in 5+ years even if you had stayed on RU - because it didn’t fundamentally retake lost ground. It’s 2015 and we still don’t have anything that does retake lost ground. That is the problem.

Cal raised some good points there.

+1

Cal did not raise good points and I’ll respond to him to explain why.

And Roger, you still haven’t responded to my suspicion that Samumed may be doing the extra phase 2 study so they can gather biomarkers to submit in lieu of a phase 3 trial if the 2st Century Cures Act passes. Is there something wrong with this suspicion of mine? Samumed’s extra phase 2 study includes biopsies.

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by cal[/postedby]
Castration doesn’t even regrow very much lost hair. Don’t tell me that a good AA topical will do more than that.

Maybe you got major-league regrowth by being a great responder with recent loss, etc. But your success is not consistent & repeatable for everyone because its not really reversing the MPB process. What you had was probably just a particularly good “rebound” type of recovery. You probably would have gradually regressed back to baseline in 5+ years even if you had stayed on RU - because it didn’t fundamentally retake lost ground. It’s 2015 and we still don’t have anything that does retake lost ground. That is the problem.[/quote]

Why can’t I tell you that a good topical AA will do more androgen suppression than castration? I should be allowed to tell you that since it’s true. Castration eliminates the androgen coming from the testes only, but androgen is produced in other part(s) of the body as well, including the adrenal glands. Roger-that knows this so I’m surprised that he actually gave you a +1. I think you probably know it too.

In any case, a good topical anti-androgen can potentially negate ALL of the androgen in the skin of the scalp whereas castration can only eliminate the amount of androgen that comes from the testes at the most.

I’ve seen a lot of people’s RU pics and a lot of people are getting good results from RU. Also, you can blame a lot of the inconsistency that people are seeing with RU on the fact that it’s black-market and so it’s not made perfectly and consistently.

I am NOT a great responder. I’m a lousy responder. 2% Rogaine did not work on me. 5% Rogaine did not work on me. 5% rogaine PLUS finasteride did not work on me. So far ONLY RU PLUS 5% Rogaine have worked on me, but it ultimately gave me a slight case of gyno (which now gets worse whenever I use an anti-androgen) and my body developed resistance to the treatment, or perhaps it wasn’t made correctly sometimes. In any case, it stopped working on me after some time.

Your statement of what would have “probably” happened with me if I had stayed on RU amounts to ASSUMING and we all know about the fallacy of assuming. If RU came to market via the legal market for all we know it would work satisfactorily on me forever. But all we are able to get is black-market RU. Even blackmarket RU did take back lost ground for me, and lots of it. The problem is that it stopped working, which could have been due to inconsistency that plagues virtually all black-market products, or my body developed resistance to RU. Keep in mind that when you introduce anti-androgenic drugs to the body there may be an offsetting response by the body, such as upregulating more androgen receptors to suck up whatever androgens are floating around. But if RU was a lawful drug then the drug would be made properly every time and doctors would be learning more and more about it so they would think of ways to solve the problem of the body finding ways to offset anti-androgens introduced to the body. But since the drug is illegal nobody is making it perfectly and nobody is trying to learn more and more about ways to deal with issues like the body developing ways to offset the drug’s activity in the body.

Cal, you’re wrong.

Whatever dude.

You got great a response with a strong topical AA + strong Minox. But it produced sides and did not last very long. That sounds like a fairly normal response to that regimen to me.

But you have decided it’s not because this was too strong of a regimen, and it produced a great rebound response but it could not be sustained (like normally happens.) No, for you, this was because the regimen was fine but you unfortunately “just got sides from it” and then you suddenly got “bad drugs” when it stopped working.

Umm, yeah.

We’ve been watching people experiment with androgen-fighting methods for MPB for years. Decades. Castration, all sorts of topicals, 5ar drugs . . . we have a good consistent picture of what androgen fighting is capable of. Here it is: Androgen fighting won’t regrow large amounts of hair. SEVERE androgen shutdown + SEVERE estrogen boosting (Gender-changing) regimens actually will regrow lost hair. But the hair only comes back when the regimen is strong enough to basically be a sex change attempt. We’ve seen this played out many times.

Now you are saying this Samumed thing might be prepping for an early release of a workable product just because they are extending phase#2 to biopsies (amid a few rumors of bad results). This is basically another WNT boost attempt from what I read a while back. Does that really sound very promising? I doubt it.

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by cal[/postedby]
Whatever dude.

You got great a response with a strong topical AA + strong Minox. But it produced sides and did not last very long. That sounds like a fairly normal response to that regimen to me.

But you have decided it’s not because this was too strong of a regimen, and it produced a great rebound response but it could not be sustained (like normally happens.) No, for you, this was because the regimen was fine but you unfortunately “just got sides from it” and then you suddenly got “bad drugs” when it stopped working.

Umm, yeah.

We’ve been watching people experiment with androgen-fighting methods for MPB for years. Decades. Castration, all sorts of topicals, 5ar drugs . . . we have a good consistent picture of what androgen fighting is capable of. Here it is: Androgen fighting won’t regrow large amounts of hair. SEVERE androgen shutdown + SEVERE estrogen boosting (Gender-changing) regimens actually will regrow lost hair. But the hair only comes back when the regimen is strong enough to basically be a sex change attempt. We’ve seen this played out many times.

Now you are saying this Samumed thing might be prepping for an early release of a workable product just because they are extending phase#2 to biopsies (amid a few rumors of bad results). This is basically another WNT boost attempt from what I read a while back. Does that really sound very promising? I doubt it.[/quote]

I was the one buying the stuff and I know whether or not there
was something peculiar about specific transactions. In fact, I decided to
quit buying the stuff because he was making large amounts and he
would sell some and keep the rest around for months for later sales.
The problem is that he did not do any studies to find the best way
to preserve the potency of the stuff. The legitimate company did
those studies and they knew how to store it, but the black-marketers
did not know that stuff. I did talk with Roussel Uclaf on the
phone numerous times and there is a specific way the stuff has to
be stored and they would not disclose that to me. I was on very
friendly terms with them but they would not give me that
information because they did not want to be responsible for me
using a product that was not approved. The RU black-marketers
are sometimes selling good product but sometimes they’re selling RU
that is months old and is not stored properly. Period.

Androgen reduction can grow large amounts of hair but you have to
do total, or almost total, androgen reduction. I used RU with
minoxidil most of the times I got regrowth but minoxidil never
worked on me so it was the RU that grew the hair. Sometimes
I only used RU and that also grew lot of hair on me sometimes.
I did this for about 4 - 6 years and then gave up on RU.

You may be able to cure hair loss via Wnt activation without
causing sexual side effects if Wnt activity is further
downstream than the point of sexual side effects. In
other words the stream might look something like this:

Anti-androgen – sexual side effects — Wnt activation — hair growth.

So if you do Wnt activation you could be entering that stream after
the point of sexual side effects on that stream, thereby bypassing
sexual side effects.

There’s also the possibility that either point (Wnt activation or
sexual side effects) could be on a stream that branched off from
the original anti-androgen stream, which means that you could
possibly affect one without affecting the other if you do
your intervention past the point where the branch occurred.
Anti-androgen therapy may be just the beginning of a stream
with a number of key points and branches before you get to
the end of that stream.

Have it your way.

I won’t continue trying to tell you what you bought and how your body reacted to it. I wasn’t there.

But I will repeat this:

People (and researchers) have experimented with androgen-fighting methods to treat MPB for decades. We have a well-developed picture of how far androgen-fighting can take us in the battle against MPB. Androgen fighting won’t regrow large amounts of hair.

If it could, then people would have discovered it a long time ago. Guys like us would be doing temporary cycles of MAJOR LEAGUE androgen suppression and retaking BIG amounts of lost ground. Then we could maintain the gains with weak AA efforts just like guys at the early stages of MPB.

You won’t convince me that nobody else besides you has ever taken a good hard consistent dose of decent-grade RU for a year or two. That’s basically what your argument is - “it reverses MPB just fine but nobody has ever taken a good quality high dose for very long.” This stuff has been around for 20 years. Maybe the Chinese internet-sold stuff isn’t top notch but there are RESEARCHERS who have spent MILLIONS on androgen fighting methods too.

You are talking about all of the available anti-androgens as if they are all ideal but there are reasons why each of the available anti-androgen is imperfect. For example, some of them are “impure” and some of them do not work topically. Last I remember the only pure anti-androgen that is available is flutamide and it does not work topically. RU is only available on the black-market and any sensible person would realize that the black-market is not as reliable as the legitimate market. There are no independent controls over the black-market suppliers - black-market suppliers control themselves. They’re cooks to begin with and anyone who trusts crooks to voluntarily control themselves according to Hoyle is foolish. Of course crooks would sell you old leftover product sometimes. It’s common sense.

Both of the available 5-alpha reductase inhibitors, dutasteride and finasteride, are pure but they ONLY work on one androgen - DHT. There are other androgens. This goes back to the point about how castration leaves some androgen in the body vs a potent topical anti-androgen, which could theoretically eliminate ALL androgen from a specific part of the body.

You are talking about f’d up anti-androgens and trying to compare them to the ideal anti-androgen. Your argument is messed up because of this. There is only ONE safe, pure, topical anti-androgen in existence - RU58841. ONE. You can not compare the oral anti-androgens or impure anti-androgens to a safe pure topical anti-androgen. You can not compare 5-alpha reductase inhibitors to anti-androgens. If you do try to make these comparisons, and you are trying to do so, then you do not know what you’re talking about. I don’t care if the efficacy of impure anti-androgens is limited. It doesn’t matter because the limitations of the efficacy of impure anti-androgens might be simply because they are impure. Impurity alone can make them less effective.

An anti-androgen being “impure” versus “pure” is a big deal when it comes to efficacy. You can’t compare an impure anti-androgen to a pure anti-androgen, although you are trying to do so. And you can’t compare 5-alpha reductase inhibitors to anti-androgens but I’m sure you’re also trying to do that. I don’t care if 5-alpha reductase inhibitors only have limited effectiveness. Their efficacy is limited because they do not negate all androgen in the target area. They only negate some androgen.

Here read this:

The important part is this:

Flutamide, another frequently used antiandrogen which is non-steroidal and a pure androgen receptor antagonist, though much less potent by weight and binding affinity than either spironolactone or cyproterone acetate,[26][27] has been found to be more effective than either of them as an antiandrogen when it is used at the typical treatment doses.[21][28][29] Unfortunately, the uses of both cyproterone acetate and flutamide have been associated with hepatotoxicity, which can be severe with flutamide and has resulted in the withdrawal of cyproterone acetate from the United States drug market for this indication. Bicalutamide is a more potent, safer, and more tolerable alternative to flutamide, but is relatively little-studied in the treatment of androgen-dependent conditions aside from prostate cancer, though it has been used to treat hirsutism with success. Gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analogues are another very effective option for antiandrogen therapy, but have not been widely employed for this purpose due to their high cost and limited insurance coverage despite many now being available as generics.[18] As such, spironolactone may be the only practical, safe, available, and well-supported antiandrogen option in some cases.

Find me on person who permanently retook (not rebounded for a year or two) lost ground with a topical AA.

Find me one person who did it with systemic AAs (without sex-change E boosting too).

Find me one person who did it with ANYTHING short of a hair transplant.

You can’t.

RU58841 was tested by researchers who found the results to be basically similar to Finasteride. That is not much compared to what you claim. Were they getting “bad batches” too? You could use that excuse to justify the failure of any drug in human history the way you argue it.

Bad drugs explains inconsistency in results among the public. Bad drugs does not explain the lack of ANY evidence of top level results EVER.

Nobody permanently retakes lost ground with anything other than a HT. It’s all rebound regrowth of hair that wasn’t fully dead or had not been dead very long.

You might find one or two exceptions to this with enough digging. But you can find cases of terminal cancer spontaneously disappearing too. That doesn’t make it consistent enough to even try to understand why at all, let alone credit a certain drug with it.

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by cal[/postedby]
Find me on person who permanently retook (not rebounded for a year or two) lost ground with a topical AA.

Find me one person who did it with systemic AAs (without sex-change E boosting too).

Find me one person who did it with ANYTHING short of a hair transplant.

You can’t.

RU58841 was tested by researchers who found the results to be basically similar to Finasteride. That is not much compared to what you claim. Were they getting “bad batches” too? You could use that excuse to justify the failure of any drug in human history the way you argue it.

Bad drugs explains inconsistency in results among the public. Bad drugs does not explain the lack of ANY evidence of top level results EVER.

Nobody permanently retakes lost ground with anything other than a HT. It’s all rebound regrowth of hair that wasn’t fully dead or had not been dead very long.

You might find one or two exceptions to this with enough digging. But you can find cases of terminal cancer spontaneously disappearing too. That doesn’t make it consistent enough to even try to understand why at all, let alone credit a certain drug with it.[/quote]

As I have tried repeatedly to tell you the only drug that matters in this discussion is RU58841 because it is the only drug that contains all of the necessary requirements:

  1. Potent

  2. Pure

  3. Active in only the target tissue when applied topically

And legitimate RU58841 has never been tested on humans.

You seem to be suggesting that you can extrapolate the effectiveness of any ole anti-androgen to what would happen with human use of RU58841, but that is very VERY incorrect. Almost all of the anti-androgens available in the legitimate market are impure and the one or two that are pure are less potent than RU58841 and they work systemically. The only drug of consequence in this discussion is RU58841 and it has never been tested next to minoxidil or finasteride in any human study, so your claim that it has failed to beat Finasteride and minoxidil is incorrect as far as human use goes. There has not been even 1 study comparing legitimate RU58841 to minoxidil or finasteride in humans. Primates do not count because it’s easier to grow hair in primates than humans.

RU has been tested on humans.

It was non side-by-side with Fin or Minox, but if the results were as good as you think then it would have been obvious without Fin/Minox to compare to.

Are you the only one who ever did get a decent batch of RU? They made one good little batch, shipped it to you, and never any other?

NOBODY else EVER sees the results you claim, not even TEMPORARILY. This is not an “inconsistency” issue.

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by cal[/postedby]
RU has been tested on humans.

It was non side-by-side with Fin or Minox, but if the results were as good as you think then it would have been obvious without Fin/Minox to compare to.

Are you the only one who ever did get a decent batch of RU? They made one good little batch, shipped it to you, and never any other?

NOBODY else EVER sees the results you claim, not even TEMPORARILY. This is not an “inconsistency” issue.[/quote]

RU58841 has never been in a controlled experiment (run by bonafide researchers) versus finasteride or minoxidil on humans. Never. You are extrapolating and you are assuming, and it’s unintelligent to do those things. The things you are saying are no better than old-wives-tales.

I’ve read on the internet where other people have talked about excellent results with RU58841. And no I’m not going to go hunting for all of those posts for you because your lack of information is not my problem. I will include one post from t.bt by someone who says he got a lot of regrowth from RU58841. This post actually consists of two posts - first there’s a post from a poster who ASSUMes (you know about assuming don’t you) that if RU58841 everyone would know about it; and then there’s a response post by a different poster who says that it doesn’t matter what the media says and he got excellent regrowth from RU58841…better regrowth than from minoxidil or finasteride. I will put the entire post in bold type.

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Quote Originally Posted by Tracy C View Post
That was a lot to read - but I’m not buying into any it. If it actually worked (safely and effectively), it would be all over the news. Everyone would have heard about it.

Thats not true. I have grown back a lot of hair and still going strong and its not all over the news. I did not use approved medications (Rogaine/Propecia) and I have seen better results then any of the before afters I have seen from the “FDA cleared medications”. I guess my point is that main stream media only buzzes when somebody lets the bees out, so if you dont see the bees buzzing does that mean they dont exist or their just back in the hive.

Now I’m not responding to you anymore. You don’t know what you’re talking about, you do a lot of assuming, and you do a lot of mistaken extrapolating where you compare apples to oranges. You do not know what you’re talking about and you are wrong, wrong, wrong.

You need to go to t.bt and look up the thread that says Collecting RU-58841 pictures. And after you get done going through that thread I hope you have the good sense to realize that you need to talk less and listen more.

6 months long study, 120 human test subjects, 5% concentration:

http://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN71083772

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by cal[/postedby]
6 months long study, 120 human test subjects, 5% concentration:

http://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN71083772[/quote]

Do you have any proof the study even took place? Do you have any proof what the study results were for the group who used 5% RU58841? Did the study involve treatment arms for minoxidil? Did the study include treatment arms for finasteride?

Have you gone to t.bt and looked up the thread of RU58841 pictures that I informed you about? Did you read all of the posts in that thread? Are you aware of what people are saying about RU58841 in that thread? Are you aware that in that thread there are posters confirming that they have to make their RU58841 carefully or else it won’t be 100% effective? Are you aware that in that thread some people are talking about how sometimes RU58841 is effective and sometimes it is not, which basically confirms what I have said about how you can’t trust black-market RU58841. The sellers are giving RU58841 but sometimes they don’t store it properly and it goes stale or something. You need to go and read all of the posts in that thread and educate yourself.

You also need to provide proof that the one human RU58841 study you have referenced actually took place, that it compared 5% RU58841 to finasteride, and that it compare RU58841 to minoxidil. You need to PROVE to us the results since you are claiming that the results showed that it’s no better than minoxidil or finasteride.

And you need to tell those people at t.bt that they are not getting better results with RU58841 than finasteride or minoxidil even though they claim otherwise, and even though their pics show otherwise. And you should tell them to quit wasting their money on RU58841 since it’s more expensive and way more trouble than either minoxidil or finasteride, and according to you it’s no better. But don’t be surprised if they laugh in your face and tell you to kiss off because you are definitely wrong. RU58841 is definitely better than minoxidil or finasteride; the problem with it is that it’s black-market so you can’t count on the quality of it when you buy it. Sometimes it isn’t fresh and it hasn’t been stored properly.

Whatever dude.

I’ve used RU myself in the past. A couple different batches. It helps but it’s nothing amazing.

Jarjar, I believe you had success with this and that it grew most of your hair back.

But the bottom line is, if a drug has unacceptable side effects, I don’t care how effective it is, I’m not interested in it, and besides that it will never be approved.

I’m not interested in a drug that grows all my hair back if I also have to grow breasts. That’s not part of the deal.

Next…

And Roger, RU58841 might grow you breasts. It could happen. And Wnt mediation Wnts may be on the androgen pathway but further downstream. And the cellular treatments that you like so much may also be on that same patheway. And that leads to my point.

My point is that anti-androgens may work by stimulating prostaglandins, which may in turn stimulate Wnts, which may in turn stimulates cellular proliferation.

And the cellular treatments that you like so much (and I like them too) may be the final stop on the anti-androgen pathway. When you use an anti-androgen it may cause a cascade of events that ultimately lead to increased cellular proliferation, which may be what ultimately causes more hair growth. And you avoid sexual side effects because when you add cells you enter that pathway further downstream than the point where sexual side effects are activated. And there may be other points on that pathway that are also past the point where sexual side effects are activated. And one of those points may be Wnt mediation.