Roger_that you said that it\'s hard to inject cells into follicles

[jarjarbinx]

Do you think it would help any if the cells were injected at an angle instead of straight in?

Probably not. The follicle walls would not get penetrated except where the needle went through at the tip. I don’t know how they’re going to cells into the follicles. I wonder if instead of injecting the cells you could maybe slice open a swath of skin and lay the cells across that swath? Sure some of the cells would be lost but wouldn’t more go into follicles than by injecting the cells straight in?

I still think the fact that the Aderans study pics showed that the outer-rim of the crown bald spot got the best regrowth and I think this tells us something. I think it tells us something and I think that something it tells us is just that the outer-rim of the bald spot, where hair has been most recently lost, is the easiest to bring back to life and the areas inside the crown are lost longer and it’s going to take more effort to bring those hairs back. This is why I think repeat follow-up treatments is best, but there should also be more to kick start the areas that have been bald longer.

[roger_that]

Jarjar - your question isn’t right, follicles don’t actually have “walls” per se like a plant, or plant cells which have “cell walls”.

Follicles sit in a very narrow, but open cavity in the epidermis and dermis, and their outer lining consists of “epithelium” which is just long rows of generalized cells. But there is no “wall”, there is nothing hard that the injected cells would have to penetrate.

However, what you are asking about whether the injected cells can reach the proper place on the follicles to integrate with the native DP cells, may be kind of moot because the 3D spheroid culture line of research (Jahoda/Christiano 2013) is aimed at inducing de novo follicles by follicular neogenesis.

Of course, enlarging miniaturized follicles may also take place simultaneously, but ultimately it may be less important than you think.

[keithlacon]

jarjarbinx, you are completely in wrong direction for growing hairs. As a hair expert I will suggest you to apply coconut oil with advance therapy and if it doesn’t work then directly go for hair re-transplant.

learn more

[cal]

Ji Gami worked best at the outer rim of the bald spot because it suffered from the same problem that literally every MPB-fighting treatment has hit for thousands of years - they cannot retake any lost ground.

When it happened, Aderans did what every other hair hair multiplication research team has done about it. They didn’t admit they were having the problem, they made no real attempt understand the problem, they just ignored it and hoped it would go away. Then they sat there looking surprised when it didn’t go away, trial after trial.

We might get MPB solved pretty quickly if a team of researchers would ever focus on the actual problem. If this unknown factor was addressed then the existing meds might be all we need after that. Do a short period of major-league androgen suppression, and our whole head of hair would come back. We could then quit the meds and be home free for years or decades before MPB becomes an issue again.

[Freddie555]

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by cal[/postedby]

When it happened, Aderans did what every other hair hair multiplication research team has done about it. They didn’t admit they were having the problem, they made no real attempt understand the problem, they just ignored it and hoped it would go away. Then they sat there looking surprised when it didn’t go away, trial after trial.
[/quote]

Why can’t these idiots clue into the concept of FDA testing their cell therapy
as a product for SLOWING DOWN hair loss instead of reversing it. The former
I’d be willing to bet is a whole lot easier to do than the latter.

I’m sure slowing down hair loss is probably what their system does and
likewise for Replicel. But these fools aim for the moon (follicular
neogenesis) and when they find they can’t get anywhere near it, they abandon
all the research and put it in the dumpster of history.

When will their lame brains figure out that launching a product that SLOWS
DOWN hair loss (even if it has to be injected every 6 months) will earn them
LOTS of profit. Profit they can use to further their research to the next
step of follicular neogenesis.

Am I missing something, or are the CEOs running these companies just plain
dumb?

[hairman2]

cal, I think you are oversimplifying things. These guys are intelligent researchers. I think they are fully aware that they need to address the underlying problem and not just hope for it to go away. The problem is rather that they have no answers to the underlying problem. If hair loss was something trivial, we’d have found the cure decades ago.

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by cal[/postedby]
Ji Gami worked best at the outer rim of the bald spot because it suffered from the same problem that literally every MPB-fighting treatment has hit for thousands of years - they cannot retake any lost ground.

When it happened, Aderans did what every other hair hair multiplication research team has done about it. They didn’t admit they were having the problem, they made no real attempt understand the problem, they just ignored it and hoped it would go away. Then they sat there looking surprised when it didn’t go away, trial after trial.

We might get MPB solved pretty quickly if a team of researchers would ever focus on the actual problem. If this unknown factor was addressed then the existing meds might be all we need after that. Do a short period of major-league androgen suppression, and our whole head of hair would come back. We could then quit the meds and be home free for years or decades before MPB becomes an issue again.[/quote]

[cal]

[quote]When will their lame brains figure out that launching a product that SLOWS
DOWN hair loss (even if it has to be injected every 6 months) will earn them
LOTS of profit. Profit they can use to further their research to the next
step of follicular neogenesis.[/quote]

Propecia has been a commercial failure. Prevention only sells to guys like us. Most of the population doesn’t care about hair loss until it’s already bad, and then they don’t care about dumping a bunch of money/effort into it unless they can bring back what they lost.

cal, I think you are oversimplifying things. These guys are intelligent researchers. I think they are fully aware that they need to address the underlying problem and not just hope for it to go away. The problem is rather that they have no answers to the underlying problem. If hair loss was something trivial, we’d have found the cure decades ago.

I am oversimplifying things because they are overcomplicating it.

I have said it before, this is like dealing with a starving man who never regains any weight no matter how much food the doctors give him. The doctors keep trying to come up with more elaborate & higher-calorie food instead of trying to figure out why he hasn’t been regaining weight as soon as they fed him more than he was burning off. They could feed this guy a horse and it won’t solve the problem because they aren’t looking at the problem. They have decided to solve it the way they want instead of working on whatever the problem actually turns out to be.

Cutting off androgen damage stops MPB and causes a mild amount of regrowth. I have yet to hear a decent answer for why the regrowth is only ever mild. It’s been decades.

[roger_that]

Cal, you keep on posting about this subject - using cell therapy to slow down hairloss.

Well, you’re absolutely right, it would be a great way to slow down hairloss and should be used and marketed for that purpose.

But what I think you keep on missing is that the driving force behind this research is, always has been, and always will be, regenerating miniaturized hair and/or follicular neogenesis. That’s where the more considerable market is. That desire is I think why most people come to this particular forum. My hairloss has progressed well beyond the point of just wanting to slow it down. That’s true for a lot of people and probably the majority of people here.

Regrowing hair, not just developing yet another product to slow down hairloss, is what people refer to as “the Holy Grail”, and it would be a mistake to get sidelined putting out yet another mediocre product and stop looking for a real cure.

[cal]

Umm, Roger, do you understand my opinion here?

I don’t want to see cell therapy per se. I don’t care what it takes, I just want them to figure out why the existing therapies don’t work. IMHO they have not done that adequately.

You have brought up the possibility that getting ARI’s cells into the follicles may never be a consistent reliable process. That’s one problem. But why didn’t they get inconsistent growth ALL OVER THE HEAD, not just on the edges of the bald spot?

Don’t say that the same thing cannot happen with all-new follicles. I agree that it PROBABLY won’t, but WE DON’T KNOW. It wasn’t supposed to happen to Ji Gami either but IMHO it clearly did. This has taken them by surprise and I still don’t see anyone really trying to understand what’s happening.

[roger_that]

The problem of getting the injected cells into the follicles applies to using cells to regrow miniaturized follicles, but it doesn’t apply at all to follicular neogenesis.

Granted Aderans was unsure and nebulous at best about what their intended mode of action was. First it was neogenesis with “designer hair” and unlimited new follicles. Then they walked that back to “probably a mix of neogenesis and reviving vellus follicles”. Then they moved the goalpost again and said there was definitely no neogenesis, it was all reviving miniaturized follicles. Then it turned out they couldn’t even do that very well.

The recent results by Christiano and Jahoda are different. This is PROVEN follicular neogenesis by cell therapy. It can’t be simply conflated into everything ARI did, or failed to do. It’s something brand new, and the science they’ve demonstrated shows that, for the first time, they’ve got a grip on the fundamentals… The “why” questions you keep asking about. Give them some time. They at least know the right pathway to pursue now. This is something ARI never actually had, as long as they were researching this.

I believe the Jahoda-Christiano results are one of the big reasons ARI decided to close up shop. The J-C announcement came after the Aderans decision, but don’t think Aderans didn’t know what was going on, as the research coincided with their decision almost exactly, time-wise.

As a for-profit, commercial enterprise dealing in proprietary technologies, it became evident they weren’t on the cutting edge anymore, and were unlikely to be able to patent anything on the lines of the Jahoda-Christiano work, simply because it doesn’t belong to them.

[cal]

You won’t find this convincing at all, but mark my words that I’ve said it here - Aderans’ program only ever looked unfocused & unproven in hindsight.

When it was first getting in gear it seemed so well worked-out that people were absolutely bitching about the formality that it had to do FDA trials. Follica has never seemed nearly so far developed in comparison.

Do we have a patient with a full head of hair via the Jahoda/Christiano work? No. Which means they don’t have it figured out yet. I know what you’re going to think & say, and I’m going to tell you that Aderans sounded every bit as assured most of a decade ago. Issues such as the efficacy on longer-balded skin was only a matter-of-time thing until it caused the program’s goalposts to be moved. Consistency was only a matter-of-time problem right up until it sank the program.

If it seems like I am holding an opinion more on my vague impression of the program than the specifics, you’re right. Not because I don’t want to learn the specifics, but because I have learned through over a decade of following the HM race that a positive set of specific facts tends to sound more convincing than the less quantified/understood/predicted unknowns.

The current situation sounds good but I remain uncomfortable with it. IMO nothing is worked out until we have patients with major resto work. Jahona & Christiano (understandably) haven’t done that yet. It concerns me that ARI has suffered the same failure that has befallen pretty much every attempt to reverse MPB in mankind’s history. Yet now it seems to be getting abandoned by those with any professional or personal interest in HM without much interest in understanding the specifics of its failure.

[Mr_Z]

I agree with your post Cal.

I’m very interested to see if Replicel will continue the tradition, and repeat the same mistakes that sunk Intercytex and now Aderans. They seemed destined to head down that road to the same fate. I hope they can somehow show a different result, but, really i don’t think they’ve much chance of doing better. Their procedure just doesn’t seem to differ that much from their predecessors

[Freddie555]

[quote]
Regrowing hair, not just developing yet another product to slow down hairloss,
is what people refer to as “the Holy Grail”, and it would be a mistake to get
sidelined putting out yet another mediocre product and stop looking for a
real cure.[/quote]

Nobody is saying stop looking for a cure.

But looking for a cure costs a lot of money & time.

Its downright stupid to look for the Holy Grail without having some
intermediate plans to refill the coffers.

Unless there is some steady stream of revenue coming in to keep the
expedition well financed, any quest for the Holy Grail will be short lived
and accomplish nothing.

Even then, its a long shot. Aderans poured in $150+ million of profits from
its rug business into this venture and has nothing to show for it. What
kind of revenue does it take to generate $150+ million ? My guess is about
500 to 1 billion dollars !

That is as close as we will ever get to large scale financing of a cure for
hair loss in our lifetime.

The few independent researchers who take up the cause like Dr. Nigam are
hounded by fuc.ked up chattering monkeys on this board.

So in the end, there is ZERO research happening and all you butt ugly MFs will
die bald.

[cal]

The big money will return to the HM race when the small-time researchers come up with enough evidence that there is something that has a decent chance of panning out.

[jarjarbinx]

+1

[quote]
Regrowing hair, not just developing yet another product to slow down hairloss,
is what people refer to as “the Holy Grail”, and it would be a mistake to get
sidelined putting out yet another mediocre product and stop looking for a
real cure.

[postedby]Originally Posted by Freddie555[/postedby]

Nobody is saying stop looking for a cure.

But looking for a cure costs a lot of money & time.

Its downright stupid to look for the Holy Grail without having some
intermediate plans to refill the coffers.

Unless there is some steady stream of revenue coming in to keep the
expedition well financed, any quest for the Holy Grail will be short lived
and accomplish nothing.

Even then, its a long shot. Aderans poured in $150+ million of profits from
its rug business into this venture and has nothing to show for it. What
kind of revenue does it take to generate $150+ million ? My guess is about
500 to 1 billion dollars !

That is as close as we will ever get to large scale financing of a cure for
hair loss in our lifetime.

The few independent researchers who take up the cause like Dr. Nigam are
hounded by fuc.ked up chattering monkeys on this board.

So in the end, there is ZERO research happening and all you butt ugly MFs will
die bald.[/quote]

[jarjarbinx]

On so many levels,on every level, it’s a mistake to mistreat Dr. Nigam or ANY of the small researchers. The big money doesn’t even have a treatment to put through trials so we need small researchers to find the breakthrough treatment that the big money can run through trials. And then we have the guys here attacking at least one of the small researchers - Dr. Nigam. Freddie’s right! Many of the posters here REALLY ARE monkeys.

Every poster here who has posted ugly personal attacks against Dr. Nigam has the brainpower of a monkey. It takes monkeys to post personal attacks against any of the small researchers who are trying to find a cure to our condition. Some of the Hairsite monkeys are smarter than some of the other Hairsite monkeys but whether he’s smart (for a monkey) or not he is still a monkey.

And then there’s the issue that the moderator (a balding guy who wants his hair back?) allows the personal attacks against Dr. Nigam,. This makes the moderator at least as much of a problem as the monkeys he let’s post personal attacks against Dr. Nigam.

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by cal[/postedby]
The big money will return to the HM race when the small-time researchers come up with enough evidence that there is something that has a decent chance of panning out.[/quote]

[jarjarbinx]

The big money will return in numerous years. Right now baldness research is being advanced by the small researchers. That means we can’t afford to have any of the small researchers walk away from their research. None.

Given the above, it’s amazing that we have guys so stupid that they post personal and racist attacks against a small baldness researcher at a hair website. It’s even more amazing that the moderator of that hair website allows the posters to post those personal/racist attacks against a small baldness researcher. This behavior really is the definition of the word stupidity.

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by cal[/postedby]
The big money will return to the HM race when the small-time researchers come up with enough evidence that there is something that has a decent chance of panning out.[/quote]

[Lindo]

[quote]The big money will return in numerous years. Right now baldness research is being advanced by the small researchers. That means we can’t afford to have any of the small researchers walk away from their research. None.

Given the above, it’s amazing that we have guys so stupid that they post personal and racist attacks against a small baldness researcher at a hair website. It’s even more amazing that the moderator of that hair website allows the posters to post those personal/racist attacks against a small baldness researcher. This behavior really is the definition of the word stupidity.

[postedby]Originally Posted by cal[/postedby]
The big money will return to the HM race when the small-time researchers come up with enough evidence that there is something that has a decent chance of panning out.

[postedby]Originally Posted by jarjarbinx[/postedby][/quote]

Look at this guy ‘hairlife’ who played Nigam’s most recent guinea pig. Nigam didn’t use Nylon thread to guide the infundibulum direction, like Tsuji lab did, but followed Jahoda’s method. This WILL cause (if succesful at all) cysts to form, just like happened in Jahoda’s experiments. Hence this guy might need extended surgery to operate on his recipient, to remove all cysts, which might mess up his whole scalp ! And hairs that will be formed (if any at all) most likely will be deformed hair that will look really crazy, wrong thickness and colour and angle. And then there’s the real chance of cells going cancerous, Jahoda even warned for that. And then to think Nigam charges money for his experiments !! This guy should STOP experimenting on people, let alone charge money for it. If anything, he should pay his guinea pigs. If he wants to do real research, then do it like the pro’s and test it on human foreskin on SCID mice. But to do it on PAYING customers, that’s not just unethical, that’s outright bizarre.

Tons of research is being conducted by the REAL professionals right now. Leave it up to them, we don’t need any “Dr Nigam” who doesn’t have a clue, to perform dr Mengele-like experiments.

[jarjarbinx]

Lindo, you do not know for sure what the outcome of Hairlife’s procedure. We need to wait to find out. Also, Dr. Nigam is moving the ball much faster than the other hair loss researchers. And the people he does these treatments on want the treatment. If we wait for other researchers it will take years long. Dr. Nigam covers as much ground in 6 months as the other researchers cover in 5 - 10 years.

[quote]The big money will return in numerous years. Right now baldness research is being advanced by the small researchers. That means we can’t afford to have any of the small researchers walk away from their research. None.

Given the above, it’s amazing that we have guys so stupid that they post personal and racist attacks against a small baldness researcher at a hair website. It’s even more amazing that the moderator of that hair website allows the posters to post those personal/racist attacks against a small baldness researcher. This behavior really is the definition of the word stupidity.

[postedby]Originally Posted by cal[/postedby]
The big money will return to the HM race when the small-time researchers come up with enough evidence that there is something that has a decent chance of panning out.

[postedby]Originally Posted by jarjarbinx[/postedby]

[postedby]Originally Posted by Lindo[/postedby]

Look at this guy ‘hairlife’ who played Nigam’s most recent guinea pig. Nigam didn’t use Nylon thread to guide the infundibulum direction, like Tsuji lab did, but followed Jahoda’s method. This WILL cause (if succesful at all) cysts to form, just like happened in Jahoda’s experiments. Hence this guy might need extended surgery to operate on his recipient, to remove all cysts, which might mess up his whole scalp ! And hairs that will be formed (if any at all) most likely will be deformed hair that will look really crazy, wrong thickness and colour and angle. And then there’s the real chance of cells going cancerous, Jahoda even warned for that. And then to think Nigam charges money for his experiments !! This guy should STOP experimenting on people, let alone charge money for it. If anything, he should pay his guinea pigs. If he wants to do REAL research, then do it like the pro’s and test it on human foreskin on SCID mice.

Tons of research is being conducted by the REAL professionals right now. Leave it up to them, we don’t need any “Dr Nigam” who doesn’t have a clue, to perform dr Mengele-like experiments.[/quote]

[Lindo]

[quote]Lindo, you do not know for sure what the outcome of Hairlife’s procedure. We need to wait to find out. Also, Dr. Nigam is moving the ball much faster than the other hair loss researchers. And the people he does these treatments on want the treatment. If we wait for other researchers it will take years long. Dr. Nigam covers as much ground in 6 months as the other researchers cover in 5 - 10 years.
[postedby]Originally Posted by jarjarbinx[/postedby][/quote]

Nobody knows what the outcome will be !! But without a way to guide the hair, ALL literature reports that cysts will form, even Jahoda reported that in his breakthrough. And that Dr Nigam is moving the ball faster, that’s just BS. He’s just throwing everything that REAL researchers invented, at patients. I wouldn’t call that research. It’s an insane method of trying everything out there, totally ignoring and disrespecting patient health implications.