(deleted)
[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by jarjarbinx[/postedby]
We have no idea if it’s legit or not yet but some guys are talking as though the researchers claims have been thoroughly vetted. Needhairasap is proving to be the most easily fooled poster in the history of the internet.[/quote]
We have no idea if it’s legit, but that’s what we want to find out. That the researches are associated with a well-respected university is a good sign. Aside from that, consider us currently in the vetting process, trying to establish, among other things, exactly what part they play in these trials and photographs.
I’m not sure what the purpose was of that random personal attack on another poster. Your post would have been perfectly good if you had stopped at the first sentence.
[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]
I second everything jarjar said there. Needhairasap is blindly using a double standard to compare Pilogic with Dr. Nigam, when they’re in fact two completely different situations.[/quote]
They are very different situations, and I think that’s partially why people can be cautiously excited about Pilogic.
They’ve shown high quality pictures that if legitimate, demonstrate hair growth better than just about anything else we’ve seen from an experimental procedure. To top it of, as far as we know they’re not charging for their trial, and we have no idea if they even want the photographs to be made public. We’re excited about possible evidence here, rather than words.
Others, especially those who charge for unproven procedures, should note that it’s really not that hard to take high-quality, convincing photographs and to properly document your work. The obfuscation and meaningless (at best) photographs we’ve seen so far from Nigam is, if nothing else, reason to make us suspicious. We were burned by the likes of Bazan before.
Some of what needhairasap has posted about me in connection with this exact same issue has been negative and personal as well.
Look, I’m not trying to rain on everyone’s parade but I just that someone needs to contact the company and get some information before people like needhairasap continues popping the champagne corks.
licht, let me point out a negative fact: Roger-that has a point about the possibility that litigation could slow the Israeli technology down by years even if it is as effective as the pictures indicate. Litigation could prevent it from EVER coming to market. Histogen was slowed down by years due to litigation and the same thing could happen to the Israeli technology. And keep in mind that Histogen won its’ case or else it could have been permanently derailed. There is no guarantee that the Israelis researchers would win litigation if litigation propped up to delay or stop them from proceeding.
And this litigation threat only matters if the pics and treatment are legit which has not been established yet.
Also, there is one BIG question - why did 2 guys from TB.t get into studies? How does that even make sense? One of those guys says he spoke with people over there in the know who told him that the treatment could be available within 1 year in America but if that’s the case then that would mean that all the studies )1 through 3) are completed and now we are just waiting for the FDA to sort through the paperwork, but if that’s the case then why did 2 more guys just now get into some study involving the treatment? How is it that those two guys are just now starting a study (the previous study was 1 year) and the FDA is also just doing the final mop-up work of work of going through the paperwork from all of the studies? Maybe there’s a logical explanation for this but we need to contact the researchers or their company to get that logical explanation because right now at this point in time what we are being told does not make sense.
[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by jarjarbinx[/postedby]
We have no idea if it’s legit or not yet but some guys are talking as though the researchers claims have been thoroughly vetted. Needhairasap is proving to be the most easily fooled poster in the history of the internet.
[postedby]Originally Posted by licht[/postedby]
We have no idea if it’s legit, but that’s what we want to find out. That the researches are associated with a well-respected university is a good sign. Aside from that, consider us currently in the vetting process, trying to establish, among other things, exactly what part they play in these trials and photographs.
I’m not sure what the purpose was of that random personal attack on another poster. Your post would have been perfectly good if you had stopped at the first sentence.[/quote]
Guys, calm down… no need to degrade other people
I’m gonna try to get us some new info today.
I’ll be calling the professor from the Technion, I got his phone # (I already emailed him befre the weekend and didn’t get a response yet)
and I’m going to call hair clinic which was mentioned by some of the Israeli posters on other forums claiming to have been accepted into the trials. hair clinic is run by Yoram Benita.
for those of you who did not read my post on the other forum - here it is:
About the mysterious thread disappearance
The thread was started by a user named from Israel who had a low post count. This user’s credibility was attacked by some forum members and he declared he will stop posting, then the entire thread was deleted as well as another thread questioning why the original one was deleted.
Some members of that forum used the website’s formal questions form to ask the moderators why these threads were deleted and have yet to receive an answer.
Members on other forums have noted that the deleting forum’s policy is such that threads are rarely deleted, even when they become a battleground or when it is obvious that they involve bullsh-it products/promoters.
In light of all the above, this sounds as there is something inherently different about this topic which induced it’s deletion.
About the Treatment / People involved
The user from the other forum said the company that patented the new treatment is called Pilogics (or something similiar) and was headed by 2 Technion scientists (the Technion is a world renowned scientific university) who also head a company called Leorex that produces skin related products.
Another Israeli forum member said he contacted Leorex and asked about any new hair treatment trial and was directed to a guy named Yoram Benita, and after speaking with him he was accepted into the trial and will post updates. This of course was never done, maybe because the thread was deleted.
Iv’e searched for Yoram Benita and apparently he is a certified Tricologist (I’m not sure if this is a real medical degree/title or if it is some kind of pseudo-science, anyone care to elaborate) running a place called Hair-Clinic. He has numerous TV appearances on health related shows where he claims to fit an individual treatment to patient using his vast knowledge in the field… this is by no means any verification for his authenticity. On Israeli forums Iv’e seen mixed reviews about him ranging from people claiming his treatment works albeit takes a lot of time and effort to other people calling him out for being a charlatan. It should be mention though that I haven’t went into great depths on researching this yet.
My inquiries
Yesterday I sent an email to the Technion professor asking about his invention. still no reply.
Trying to follow the footsteps of the other Israeli forum member mention above, I called Leorex and asked about any new hairloss trials going on and they did not know what I was talking about.
Hellouser, you’ve speculated that most info on Pilox II subject is in Hebrew, unfortunately - after spending a considerable amount of time searching Iv’e found
nothing noteworthy (I did find a post in a Hebrew forum by a user with the same name as the user discussed above, and roughly the same story from about a month ago, but it contained no new info).
On Sunday (the work week starts on Sundays here) I will try to contact Yoram Benita and ask about the new treatment.
My take on the discussed above
encouraging things:
- Thread was deleted on other forum - might seem counter intuitive but i take this as a positive sign - signifies there might be something different about this.
- method as explained in patent sounds like a well focused high-intensity form of dermarolling which according to what were seeing lately does seem to have positive results.
- The before/after pics show great progress and they look legit
- The Israeli user’s story being discredited at the other forum (he claimed to have heard this from his hairdresser who heard it from one of the inventors who gets his hair cut by him) doesn’t sound too weird to me, because here in Israel coincidences like are not uncommon considering the compounding effect of a small country that is inhabited with big mouthed people
discouraging things:
- Apart for applying for the patent the Technion scientists don’t seem to have any connection to this matter - their field of study is industrial engineering…
- The Leorex company representative had not heard of any hair loss treatment trials.
- There is a missing link between The Technion scientists who supposedly invented this new method/contraption and Yoram Benita - which has been in the Israeli hair loss field for over a decade, and has yet to find THE cure (although he might have given good treatment to individual patients, can never know…)
- According to Israeli forums Yoram Benita and his treatments are controversial (again - it doesn’t mean is not up to something new and effective)
We don’t know the Israeli research is legit and if Follica were to file a patent injunction it could take years to resolve and Follica might win and that could permanently kill or delay the Israeli project even if it is legit.
[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]
I second everything jarjar said there. Needhairasap is blindly using a double standard to compare Pilogic with Dr. Nigam, when they’re in fact two completely different situations.
[postedby]Originally Posted by licht[/postedby]
They are very different situations, and I think that’s partially why people can be cautiously excited about Pilogic.
They’ve shown high quality pictures that if legitimate, demonstrate hair growth better than just about anything else we’ve seen from an experimental procedure. To top it of, as far as we know they’re not charging for their trial, and we have no idea if they even want the photographs to be made public. We’re excited about possible evidence here, rather than words.
Others, especially those who charge for unproven procedures, should note that it’s really not that hard to take high-quality, convincing photographs and to properly document your work. The obfuscation and meaningless (at best) photographs we’ve seen so far from Nigam is, if nothing else, reason to make us suspicious. We were burned by the likes of Bazan before.[/quote]
jarjar, I just saw your post
understand something - here in Israel, coincidences such as the one displayed in this story are not uncommon. it is very plausible that a new treatment (in this case, piloxii or whatever the name is) is being tested by this private hair-clinic place in collaboration with some scientist that came up with the idea for the patent. the FDA doesn’t have its tight grip on issues here, and as I said the scientist themselves are from the industrial engineering faculty - which means that absurdly they might have not even thought about the whole FDA phases needing to be completed for this matter.
In Israel from the regulatory aspect, everything is a bit looser and I can easily imagine how these 2 scientist might have heard something about wounding/injecting things for hairloss and went ahead with their idea quietly in hopes of reaching the holy grail someday and becoming ultra rich - all this with out all the regular processes we’ve been accustomed to see from other companies in other countries.
with all this in mind, the burden of proof is still on them, we’ll just have to wait and see.
and per your wild speculation regarding litigation - i think this is a very far concern. first lets see what it is, if it really exists and if it really works. then we can start worrying about things that can jeopardize it 
Please let us know what you find out. It does seem VERY negative that the dermatology company (Leorex) owned by the scientist has no idea what you were referring to. That’s a bad sign. It does seem logical that these scientists would put such a treatment out through their dermatology company. Why not?
Also, I’m curious how it is that the original poster in TB.T could post that the treatment could be in the market in a year or less when the treatment is obviously starting a new study right now since the scientist just let those two TB.T posters into a study a few days ago. The FDA looks over all the paperwork after the final (Phase 3) study is completed so if a phase 3 study is just now starting then it will be a year before the study is completed and then it would take the FDA a year or more to go through all of the final paperwork before the FDA gives approval. This means that the treatment is AT LEAST 2 years before hitting the market if the phase 3 study is just now starting. But I do not know if it is a phase 3 study that is just starting. It could be a phase 4 study, which generally starts after all data is submitted to the FDA and a phase 4 study often completes after the treatment is already for sale in the market place.
We need some clarification if you can please get some clarification.
[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by aka1[/postedby]
Guys, calm down… no need to degrade other people
I’m gonna try to get us some new info today.
I’ll be calling the professor from the Technion, I got his phone # (I already emailed him befre the weekend and didn’t get a response yet)
and I’m going to call hair clinic which was mentioned by some of the Israeli posters on other forums claiming to have been accepted into the trials. hair clinic is run by Yoram Benita.
for those of you who did not read my post on the other forum - here it is:
About the mysterious thread disappearance
The thread was started by a user named from Israel who had a low post count. This user’s credibility was attacked by some forum members and he declared he will stop posting, then the entire thread was deleted as well as another thread questioning why the original one was deleted.
Some members of that forum used the website’s formal questions form to ask the moderators why these threads were deleted and have yet to receive an answer.
Members on other forums have noted that the deleting forum’s policy is such that threads are rarely deleted, even when they become a battleground or when it is obvious that they involve bullsh-it products/promoters.
In light of all the above, this sounds as there is something inherently different about this topic which induced it’s deletion.
About the Treatment / People involved
The user from the other forum said the company that patented the new treatment is called Pilogics (or something similiar) and was headed by 2 Technion scientists (the Technion is a world renowned scientific university) who also head a company called Leorex that produces skin related products.
Another Israeli forum member said he contacted Leorex and asked about any new hair treatment trial and was directed to a guy named Yoram Benita, and after speaking with him he was accepted into the trial and will post updates. This of course was never done, maybe because the thread was deleted.
Iv’e searched for Yoram Benita and apparently he is a certified Tricologist (I’m not sure if this is a real medical degree/title or if it is some kind of pseudo-science, anyone care to elaborate) running a place called Hair-Clinic. He has numerous TV appearances on health related shows where he claims to fit an individual treatment to patient using his vast knowledge in the field… this is by no means any verification for his authenticity. On Israeli forums Iv’e seen mixed reviews about him ranging from people claiming his treatment works albeit takes a lot of time and effort to other people calling him out for being a charlatan. It should be mention though that I haven’t went into great depths on researching this yet.
My inquiries
Yesterday I sent an email to the Technion professor asking about his invention. still no reply.
Trying to follow the footsteps of the other Israeli forum member mention above, I called Leorex and asked about any new hairloss trials going on and they did not know what I was talking about.
Hellouser, you’ve speculated that most info on Pilox II subject is in Hebrew, unfortunately - after spending a considerable amount of time searching Iv’e found
nothing noteworthy (I did find a post in a Hebrew forum by a user with the same name as the user discussed above, and roughly the same story from about a month ago, but it contained no new info).
On Sunday (the work week starts on Sundays here) I will try to contact Yoram Benita and ask about the new treatment.
My take on the discussed above
encouraging things:
- Thread was deleted on other forum - might seem counter intuitive but i take this as a positive sign - signifies there might be something different about this.
- method as explained in patent sounds like a well focused high-intensity form of dermarolling which according to what were seeing lately does seem to have positive results.
- The before/after pics show great progress and they look legit
- The Israeli user’s story being discredited at the other forum (he claimed to have heard this from his hairdresser who heard it from one of the inventors who gets his hair cut by him) doesn’t sound too weird to me, because here in Israel coincidences like are not uncommon considering the compounding effect of a small country that is inhabited with big mouthed people
discouraging things:
- Apart for applying for the patent the Technion scientists don’t seem to have any connection to this matter - their field of study is industrial engineering…
- The Leorex company representative had not heard of any hair loss treatment trials.
- There is a missing link between The Technion scientists who supposedly invented this new method/contraption and Yoram Benita - which has been in the Israeli hair loss field for over a decade, and has yet to find THE cure (although he might have given good treatment to individual patients, can never know…)
- According to Israeli forums Yoram Benita and his treatments are controversial (again - it doesn’t mean is not up to something new and effective)[/quote]
aka1 thanks for responding to my post. Please let us know what you find out.
Even if the scientists have to start over with new studies in America and it doesn’t get sold in America for 5 - 10 years we can still order it over the internet and sometimes it will clear US customs and we will receive it once it’s available somewhere in the world, such as Israel. So do let us know what you find out please.
[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by aka1[/postedby]
jarjar, I just saw your post
understand something - here in Israel, coincidences such as the one displayed in this story are not uncommon. it is very plausible that a new treatment (in this case, piloxii or whatever the name is) is being tested by this private hair-clinic place in collaboration with some scientist that came up with the idea for the patent. the FDA doesn’t have its tight grip on issues here, and as I said the scientist themselves are from the industrial engineering faculty - which means that absurdly they might have not even thought about the whole FDA phases needing to be completed for this matter.
In Israel from the regulatory aspect, everything is a bit looser and I can easily imagine how these 2 scientist might have heard something about wounding/injecting things for hairloss and went ahead with their idea quietly in hopes of reaching the holy grail someday and becoming ultra rich - all this with out all the regular processes we’ve been accustomed to see from other companies in other countries.
with all this in mind, the burden of proof is still on them, we’ll just have to wait and see.
and per your wild speculation regarding litigation - i think this is a very far concern. first lets see what it is, if it really exists and if it really works. then we can start worrying about things that can jeopardize it :-)[/quote]
jarjar,
your failing to see the point that this may not be a study as defined and required by the FDA…
for all we know it could just be these 2 or 3 independent guys with this idea just trying to find out if this thing works or not…
because this thing is taking place in Israel it’s plausible for me (as an Israeli that knows how things are sometimes done here) that these guys have been doing this entire thing without following FDA guidelines and requirements, and yet still doing it professionally and rigorously.
with that said - it doesn’t matter if they comply with the FDA - if this thing works, the knowledge will be spread like wildfire around the world and it will be unstoppable
edit: just saw your last post - so we agree
[quote]Some of what needhairasap has posted about me in connection with this exact same issue has been negative and personal as well.
[/quote]
I didn’t mean to focus on you specifically. It just happened to be you in that thread I responded to. I think we could all try to avoid directly attacking each other and discuss the issues.
I did read what he wrote. I don’t know what the odds are that this technology might or might not be affected by patent issues, but at the very least, while it’s possible, it strikes me as quite unlikely that this would be the reason for the thread being taken down on the other forum.
As for the possibility of a patent dispute itself, I don’t think any of us seems to have the knowledge to determine if it’s really a possibility at this stage. I don’t imagine that Follica could have claims to have patented any and all use of a modified dermaroller (an already existing device) for the purposes of hair restoration. Seems rather doubtful, but who knows.
I’m honestly not sure why it is so surprising that two people from the other forum got into the studies. This is a study for a medical device (one based on an already existing, already used technology), which is both less rigorous and less formal than for new medication. These sorts of trials often have rolling entry of trialists. Pilofocus, Dr. Wesley’s new technology, is doing the same. You can sign up for a consultation for entry into the trial on his website. Pilofocus is slated to be released with FDA approval within the next year, according to Dr Wesley, yet trials appear to be ongoing.
I don’t know exactly what the timeline or situation of this Israeli company is, but the trial situation doesn’t strike me as all that odd.
Even the hairdresser story, while it caused me to raise my eyebrows, isn’t so far out that it is impossible. It sounds like somebody running a trial seeking balding trialists that fit asked a hairdresser he knew to refer potentially eligible people to them, and provided a booklet with pictures (which they may never have intended to make it on to the web).
damn, i just called one of the hair clinics’ branches and asked about piloxii/pilogics and they nothing about it.
we’ll have to wait till the afternoon when they open the main office, maybe they know something
Thanks for the updated aka1. Please let us know when you’ve managed to contact the main office. Maybe you could get a hold of Yoram Benita directly? It will also be very interesting to hear what the patent scientists have to say as well.
As always, your effort is much appreciated.
Yoram is the man you want to speak to for entry into the trials, he appears to be the driving force behind the project. Elevation at the other forum may have his number for you?
thx bruno,
I called hair clinic’s main office - again, they knew nothing about this thing and apparently , Yoram Benita who founded hair clinic does not work there anymore. now I’m trying to reach him personally to get more info… hope elevation helps me out
Is there a database of officially registered corporations in Israel that we can check to see if it’s a real company? It’s interesting that the company appears to have no website.
Aka1, thanks for doing all this research.
I found this and checked for “Pilogics”, “Pilogic”, “Pilox” and “Piloxii”, and found nothing for any relevant industry sector or subsector:
http://www.matimop.org.il/database.aspx
This site is run by the Office of the Chief Scientist (OCS) of Israel.
Pilogics LP is listed as the Assignee of the patent, not the actual inventor. It’s possible that these 2 industrial engineering scientists from Technion were hired to design the device, so it would be expected that they really don’t know much about hair science and aren’t known by people in the hairloss or biomedical communities.
I already check in the Israeli corporations authority’s website pilogics with various different spelling in hebrew and in english, and none came up…
http://www.justice.gov.il/MOJHeb/RasutHataagidim/RashamHachvarot/7
very strange
on a side note, I researched the Technion professor some more, although he belongs to the industrial engineering faculty, his bio says he also has a degree in nuclear physics which enabled him to invent some special kind of nano vehicle that led to him establishing the cosmetics company Leorex - so maybe he’s using the same principal - just for hair.
but he didn’t answer my mail yet, and I called him like 100 times today to his office and no answer.
nevermind