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Phase 3 study for Dutasteride is indeed happening


#1

There has been some debate on whether or not the phase three trial for dutasteride is happening. I have confirmed the trial is happening, it is taking place in Korea. Should be interesting.


#2

» There has been some debate on whether or not the phase three trial for
» dutasteride is happening. I have confirmed the trial is happening, it is
» taking place in Korea. Should be interesting.’

sorry accidentally posted on the wrong forum.


#3

» » There has been some debate on whether or not the phase three trial for
» » dutasteride is happening. I have confirmed the trial is happening, it
» is
» » taking place in Korea. Should be interesting.’
»
» sorry accidentally posted on the wrong forum.

Well since it’is still in trial it can be a subject of interest for this section.

Anyway I would have been very happy if I did’t experience, myself, the side effects of Finasteride and considering that Dutasteride is said to have worst side effects than Finasteride, I really dont see any reason to get excited about it.It seems to me that at GlaxoSmithKline they are in financial need for the money of the baldies no matter the limitations and inconveniences of the drug…After all MPB is not a life-threatening disease so they can tolerate such side effects…I really dont understand how in the world they can license such drugs…for young people that are not really conscious about the dangers they risk…even for Finasteride they said that a minor proportion of the users will experience the side effects…but that’s not true…EVERYBODY using finasteride will experience side effects and we all , who tried it, know that…are we living in a lawless jungle ?!!


#4

» » » There has been some debate on whether or not the phase three trial for
» » » dutasteride is happening. I have confirmed the trial is happening, it
» » is
» » » taking place in Korea. Should be interesting.’
» »
» » sorry accidentally posted on the wrong forum.
»
» Well since it’is still in trial it can be a subject of interest for this
» section.
»
» Anyway I would have been very happy if I did’t experience, myself, the
» side effects of Finasteride and considering that Dutasteride is said to
» have worst side effects than Finasteride, I really dont see any reason to
» get excited about it.It seems to me that at GlaxoSmithKline they are in
» financial need for the money of the baldies no matter the limitations and
» inconveniences of the drug…After all MPB is not a life-threatening
» disease so they can tolerate such side effects…I really dont understand
» how in the world they can license such drugs…for young people that are
» not really conscious about the dangers they risk…even for Finasteride
» they said that a minor proportion of the users will experience the side
» effects…but that’s not true…EVERYBODY using finasteride will experience
» side effects and we all , who tried it, know that…are we living in a
» lawless jungle ?!!

amilcar, i too experienced sides from finasteride. I also didn’t realize how poorly it made me feel until i got off of it after many years of use. It does seen to increase depression in some predisposed individuals. I’m now using topical finasteride with no sides to mention, hopefully i won’t. No way i would take oral duta, but i would consider using it topically. The key is to not make the concentration too strong, it works in small amounts, more is not necesarily good.


#5

» amilcar, i too experienced sides from finasteride. I also didn’t realize
» how poorly it made me feel until i got off of it after many years of use.
» It does seen to increase depression in some predisposed individuals. I’m
» now using topical finasteride with no sides to mention, hopefully i won’t.
» No way i would take oral duta, but i would consider using it topically. The
» key is to not make the concentration too strong, it works in small amounts,
» more is not necesarily good.

So what are the side effects? I’ve been taking it for nearly a decade now and can’t say I’ve noticed any (at least the sexual side effects). I didn’t know depression was a side effect.


#6

» » amilcar, i too experienced sides from finasteride. I also didn’t realize
» » how poorly it made me feel until i got off of it after many years of
» use.
» » It does seen to increase depression in some predisposed individuals.
» I’m
» » now using topical finasteride with no sides to mention, hopefully i
» won’t.
» » No way i would take oral duta, but i would consider using it topically.
» The
» » key is to not make the concentration too strong, it works in small
» amounts,
» » more is not necesarily good.
»
» So what are the side effects? I’ve been taking it for nearly a decade now
» and can’t say I’ve noticed any (at least the sexual side effects). I
» didn’t know depression was a side effect.

mate you are probably one of the rare that dont experience them…not even a slower ejaculation ? or disorientation and restraining of your sex ?! may be you did not want to notice them ?! If you have an old blood before propecia-test with DHT levels mentioned consider making a new test and compare the levels .
First time I used Finasteride I even felt my body get cloder !!!


#7

» » » » There has been some debate on whether or not the phase three trial
» for
» » » » dutasteride is happening. I have confirmed the trial is happening,
» it
» » » is
» » » » taking place in Korea. Should be interesting.’
» » »
» » » sorry accidentally posted on the wrong forum.
» »
» » Well since it’is still in trial it can be a subject of interest for
» this
» » section.
» »
» » Anyway I would have been very happy if I did’t experience, myself, the
» » side effects of Finasteride and considering that Dutasteride is said to
» » have worst side effects than Finasteride, I really dont see any reason
» to
» » get excited about it.It seems to me that at GlaxoSmithKline they are in
»
» » financial need for the money of the baldies no matter the limitations
» and
» » inconveniences of the drug…After all MPB is not a life-threatening
» » disease so they can tolerate such side effects…I really dont
» understand
» » how in the world they can license such drugs…for young people that are
» » not really conscious about the dangers they risk…even for Finasteride
» » they said that a minor proportion of the users will experience the side
» » effects…but that’s not true…EVERYBODY using finasteride will
» experience
» » side effects and we all , who tried it, know that…are we living in a
» » lawless jungle ?!!
»
» amilcar, i too experienced sides from finasteride. I also didn’t realize
» how poorly it made me feel until i got off of it after many years of use.
» It does seen to increase depression in some predisposed individuals. I’m
» now using topical finasteride with no sides to mention, hopefully i won’t.
» No way i would take oral duta, but i would consider using it topically. The
» key is to not make the concentration too strong, it works in small amounts,
» more is not necesarily good.

Rooster that’s Awesome because ,as I mentioned in a previous post,I’m just thinking about trying finasteride topically…So what are your concentrations, proportions, solution…? and ABOVE all the results ?!


#8

» mate you are probably one of the rare that dont experience them…not even
» a slower ejaculation ? or disorientation and restraining of your sex ?!
» may be you did not want to notice them ?! If you have an old blood before
» propecia-test with DHT levels mentioned consider making a new test and
» compare the levels .
» First time I used Finasteride I even felt my body get cloder !!!

Why are you so sure about that? Because of the guys who present their tale of woe here or somewhere else in the internet? NO side effects? I took it myself and stopped 1 year ago (the costs…). No side effects. Yep, no disorientation, no restraining and so on. Don’t forget, that this forum is a very special place. You can’t use the guys here as a static mass and interpret the data. Most people here suffer from hairloss(treatment does not work) There are thousends of men out there who take finasterid every single day - with no side effects. But these guys do not complain here. They are just satisfied. It’s the same as with any other drugs.


#9

» Why are you so sure about that? Because of the guys who present their tale
» of woe here or somewhere else in the internet? NO side effects? I took it
» myself and stopped 1 year ago (the costs…). No side effects. Yep, no
» disorientation, no restraining and so on. Don’t forget, that this forum is
» a very special place. You can’t use the guys here as a static mass and
» interpret the data. Most people here suffer from hairloss(treatment does
» not work) There are thousends of men out there who take finasterid every
» single day - with no side effects. But these guys do not complain here.
» They are just satisfied. It’s the same as with any other drugs.

Thats bullshit this drug has bad sideeffects and there are 2 many people that suffer them just to keep their hair. The problem is embarassing by nature so not many people come forward but some day the truth will come out.All the rest…especially the above arguements… is propaganda from internet forums that get paid from adverts from propecia, i ve haerd exactly what this guy is saying in the hair loss help forum.also there are many people in forums that are paid posters whose job is exactly to counteract the negative publicity for propecia, various hairloss remedies and transplants


#10

»
» mate you are probably one of the rare that dont experience them…not even
» a slower ejaculation ? or disorientation and restraining of your sex ?!
» may be you did not want to notice them ?! If you have an old blood before
» propecia-test with DHT levels mentioned consider making a new test and
» compare the levels .
» First time I used Finasteride I even felt my body get cloder !!!

No side effects, but then again, I don’t think Propecia is very effective for me. I still take it, as I think it may be helping slow my loss, but I certainly haven’t grown hair on it.


#11

» Thats bullshit this drug has bad sideeffects and there are 2 many people
» that suffer them just to keep their hair. The problem is embarassing by
» nature so not many people come forward but some day the truth will come
» out.All the rest…especially the above arguements… is propaganda from
» internet forums that get paid from adverts from propecia, i ve haerd
» exactly what this guy is saying in the hair loss help forum.also there are» many people in forums that are paid posters whose job is exactly to
» counteract the negative publicity for propecia, various hairloss remedies
» and transplants

Yes, its all a huge conspiracy… Guy, that are the typical symptoms of what psychologists call “Cognitive dissonance” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance).
Believe it or not, i have nothing to do with propaganda, its just a logical argument. Thousands of men who never experience any side effects will not complain in a forum, that’s the point. You don’t even know how many people
suffer side effects outside this forum…do you? Bullshit is your argumentation - same as "smoking is not harmful, my grandfather smoked 40 years and became 105 years old…great, but that has nothing to do with reality.

Sorry, but there is not 1 counter-argument in your posting.


#12

» » Thats bullshit this drug has bad sideeffects and there are 2 many people
» » that suffer them just to keep their hair. The problem is embarassing by
» » nature so not many people come forward but some day the truth will come
» » out.All the rest…especially the above arguements… is propaganda
» from
» » internet forums that get paid from adverts from propecia, i ve haerd
» » exactly what this guy is saying in the hair loss help forum.also there
» are» many people in forums that are paid posters whose job is exactly to
» » counteract the negative publicity for propecia, various hairloss
» remedies
» » and transplants
»
» Yes, its all a huge conspiracy… Guy, that are the typical symptoms of
» what psychologists call “Cognitive dissonance”
» (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance).
» Believe it or not, i have nothing to do with propaganda, its just a
» logical argument. Thousands of men who never experience any side effects
» will not complain in a forum, that’s the point. You don’t even know how
» many people
» suffer side effects outside this forum…do you? Bullshit is your
» argumentation - same as "smoking is not harmful, my grandfather smoked 40
» years and became 105 years old…great, but that has nothing to do with
» reality.
»
» Sorry, but there is not 1 counter-argument in your posting.

You made a big mistake when you brought the smoking case on the table…because you know what that’s the one unique argument that “kills” all your affirmations !! In the early 60’s corporations ,and some people were saying exactly the same things than you: “Smoking is not bad for health and only few “abnormal” people are making a big case out of it” !As a matter of fact I think that those who dont experience side effects with finasteride and Dutasteride ARE the exception not the others…or may be those are people who never discovered the full reach and strength of their sexuality, body at all…


#13

» You made a big mistake when you brought the smoking case on the
» table…because you know what that’s the one unique argument that “kills”
» all your affirmations !! In the early 60’s corporations ,and some people
» were saying exactly the same things than you: “Smoking is not bad for
» health and only few “abnormal” people are making a big case out of it” !As
» a matter of fact I think that those who dont experience side effects with
» finasteride and Dutasteride ARE the exception not the others…or may be
» those are people who never discovered the full reach and strength of their
» sexuality, body at all…

Oh man…the guys who never suffer side effects are impotent anyway? THAT’s a claim :slight_smile: I am a sportsman, above average i guess…no side effects…
It’s a statistical observation, no more. There might be side effects, of course. But there is no hint, that they occurs in every patient. I don’t know if the studies are manipulated (2% side effects)…but thats a claim which has to be proven first. And THAT is not possible in a forum like this, where the statistical mass is very special.
Smoking is a bad analogy here because of the scientific advancement. This argument kills nothing because these studies were at that time and not today, we got other premises now.


#14

» Yes, its all a huge conspiracy… Guy, that are the typical symptoms of
» what psychologists call “Cognitive dissonance”
» (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance).
» Believe it or not, i have nothing to do with propaganda, its just a
» logical argument. Thousands of men who never experience any side effects
» will not complain in a forum, that’s the point. You don’t even know how
» many people
» suffer side effects outside this forum…do you? Bullshit is your
» argumentation - same as "smoking is not harmful, my grandfather smoked 40
» years and became 105 years old…great, but that has nothing to do with
» reality.
»
» Sorry, but there is not 1 counter-argument in your posting.

this thing is beyond arguing either you are smart or you are stupid, thinking that you can take a drug for the rest of your life for cosmetic purposes and it wont affect you.

Here in greece all the doctors i ask said to me stay wawy from drugs that affect your hormones to ensure your general wellbeing and mental health…


#15

» » You made a big mistake when you brought the smoking case on the
» » table…because you know what that’s the one unique argument that
» “kills”
» » all your affirmations !! In the early 60’s corporations ,and some
» people
» » were saying exactly the same things than you: “Smoking is not bad for
» » health and only few “abnormal” people are making a big case out of it”
» !As
» » a matter of fact I think that those who dont experience side effects
» with
» » finasteride and Dutasteride ARE the exception not the others…or may be
» » those are people who never discovered the full reach and strength of
» their
» » sexuality, body at all…
»
» Oh man…the guys who never suffer side effects are impotent anyway? THAT’s
» a claim :slight_smile: I am a sportsman, above average i guess…no side effects…
» It’s a statistical observation, no more. There might be side effects, of
» course. But there is no hint, that they occurs in every patient. I don’t
» know if the studies are manipulated (2% side effects)…but thats a claim
» which has to be proven first. And THAT is not possible in a forum like
» this, where the statistical mass is very special.
» Smoking is a bad analogy here because of the scientific advancement. This
» argument kills nothing because these studies were at that time and not
» today, we got other premises now.

Until a 100% scientific proof comes to the surface my libido will be HISTORY…come on man…

And the smoking case is a perfect argument here because corporations and some people were saying exactly what you are saying now…“there is no scientific Proof”, meanwhile, millions all over the world got Cancer…Now, the scientific proof is here and I’m wondering if this proof can be of any use to those suffering from the cancer or that have already perished.

Now I’m not saying that propecia or dutasteride are evil…but the absence of scientific proof here is not an argument you can use in this case since there have been so many people talking about side effect they had and, even, drugs-issuing labs recognized that but as a " small proportions issue"…Now they have to prove to the public that they are right and if they fail to do so, I guess, it will end in a Courtroom no matters the time.


#16

» this thing is beyond arguing either you are smart or you are stupid,
» thinking that you can take a drug for the rest of your life for cosmetic
» purposes and it wont affect you.
»
» Here in greece all the doctors i ask said to me stay wawy from drugs that
» affect your hormones to ensure your general wellbeing
and mental health…

I never said something about “the rest of your life”. It’s all a tightrope walk between benefit and disprofit. On the one hand a drug is always an intervention, on the other hand it is important to realize, that hairloss might be a huge intervention too…a psychic intervention - it affects the mental health and so the generell wellbeeing. Here are enough guys in the forum who suffer real pain from hairloss. Propecia is a drug and nobody should take a drug “that affect your hormones” if it is not necessary. In my opinion the circumstances today are especial, with HM and other “solutions” on the horizon. Propecia for 2 years…3 years? Perhaps 4 years? Just to maintain your hair-status? In my opinion it’s worth the thought, especially when someone doesn’t experience any side-effects.


#17

» Until a 100% scientific proof comes to the surface my libido will be
» HISTORY…come on man…
»
» And the smoking case is a perfect argument here because corporations and
» some people were saying exactly what you are saying now…“there is no
» scientific Proof”, meanwhile, millions all over the world got
» Cancer…Now, the scientific proof is here and I’m wondering if this proof
» can be of any use to those suffering from the cancer or that have already
» perished.
»
» Now I’m not saying that propecia or dutasteride are evil…but the absence
» of scientific proof here is not an argument you can use in this case since
» there have been so many people talking about side effect they had and,
» even, drugs-issuing labs recognized that but as a " small proportions
» issue"…Now they have to prove to the public that they are right and if
» they fail to do so, I guess, it will end in a Courtroom no matters the
» time.

It’s true, the absence of a 100% scientific proof means nothing…in my opinion a 100% scientific proof here is impossible anyway. (one can hardly proof a negative)
But look. There a statistical methods to test the effectivity of a drug, for example the “statistical twins”. Another point is, that you can’t determine the frequency of side effects just because many people talks about. That means nothing too! This is exactly the challenge of phase I, II and III studies.
Test the effectivity, the potential risks and so on. This are statistical correct methods. 1000 People, or 10000 people all over the world, no specific physique, no specific age etc. In this case hairloss (genetic) is a precondition (and gender), but thats it. You call all these people the statistical mass. A huge statistical mass means a significant conclusion - if you choose the subjects diversified. When you talk with people who experienced side effects here in the forum, the statistical mass is not very objective. There are many, many people (naturally) in the internet, who are not satisfied. But again, you can’t determine the frequency. By the way, that’s the same system here as it is with smoking. Take 10000 random people - 5000 smoke, 5000 not. So you get a statistical significant differenze in cancer or something like that. Would it be objective to choose 10000 miner as statistical mass? Surely not.
But back to propecia. I do not know how well you speak german (it’s my native language, sorry for my english :wink: ), but that’s a quote form the german site “haarerkrankungen.de

Prof. Dr. H. Wolff writes:

“Im Rahmen der Studien an über 1500 Männern (die eine Hälfte bekam Propecia, die andere Hälfte bekam Plazebo - eine unwirksame Substanz) wurde nach Beeinflussung der Libido (Verlangen nach Sexualität), nach Veränderung des Samenvolumens und nach Potenzproblemen gefragt. Unter 2 % aller Männer (also auch der Plazebo-Probanden) gaben eine Abnahme der Libido, des Samenvolumens (sas Samenvolumen hat hier nichts mit der Qualität der Spermien zu tun) und Potenzprobleme an. Der Unterschied zwischen den Männern die Plazebo und Propecia eingenommen haben, war statistisch nicht signifikant, also unbedeutend.”


Ok. There was a study with 1500 men, 750 get placebo, 750 get propecia. Only 2% out of these 1500 experienced (sexual) side effects (yep, there are guys in the placebo group who experienced them too). This difference between the two groups was statistical not significant. Is this study manipulated? I don’t know…but i do not believe it.

Another quote:


3. Meine eigene Erfahrungsebene
Propecia gehört zu den in meiner Haar-Sprechstunde häufig verschriebenen Mitteln. Mittlerweile sind sicher über 1000 Patienten damit behandelt worden, zum Teil bereits seit 3-4 Jahren. In unserem Patientengut schätze ich die Häufigkeit von Propecia-Nebenwirkungen auf etwa 1-3% der Anwender.
4. Die wissenschaftliche Ebene
In der über 5 Jahre gehenden wissenschaftlichen Studie zu Wirksamkeit und Nebenwirkungen der Finasterid-Tablette (Propecia) bei erblich-hormonellem Haarausfall der Männer wurde folgendes festgestellt: Eine Tablette Propecia pro Tag hemmt den Aufbau von Dihydrotestosteron (DHT) in der Kopfhaut\[,.\] der DHT Spiegel im Körper wird um 70 % gesenkt. Durch Propecia wird die Schrumpfung der Haarwurzeln verhindert. Bei etwa 90% der Anwender lässt sich der Haarausfall stoppen\[,.\] etwa 60% der Anwender bekommen eine dauerhafte Verdichtung des Kopfhaares. Günstig ist dabei, dass das für die Muskeln, die Potenz und die Knochendichteverantwortliche Testosteron durch Propecia nicht abgesenkt wird. Deshalb haben auch nur etwa 1-2% der Propecia-Anwender subjektive Nebenwirkungen wie Potenzabschwächung. Andererseits vertrugen 98% der Propecia-Patienten in der Studie das Mittel hervorragend - ohne jede Nebenwirkung."

In my opinion “3.” is important here. The doc said, that he medicates more than 1000 propecia patients - and just 1-3% report side effects (that means 10 up to 30 guys). Is that doc a liar? I don’t think so. But if these 10-30 guys come to a forum like this and report their pain, would that be significant?
4. is congruent to this report - in the 5 years study “only” 1-2% experienced side effects - 98% experienced no side effects at all!

In my opinion another point is important to note. Hairloss is a problem of aging itself. Same as Libido-Loss, gain in weight and so on. All people who take propecia become older. That’s natural. Many people out there suffer Libio-Loss, gain in weight etc. - without propecia. Can you be sure, that there is a causal connectivity? I am not sure here.


#18

» » this thing is beyond arguing either you are smart or you are stupid,
» » thinking that you can take a drug for the rest of your life for
» cosmetic
» » purposes and it wont affect you.
» »
» » Here in greece all the doctors i ask said to me stay wawy from drugs
» that
» » affect your hormones to ensure your general wellbeing
» and mental health…
»
» I never said something about “the rest of your life”. It’s all a tightrope
» walk between benefit and disprofit. On the one hand a drug is always an
» intervention, on the other hand it is important to realize, that hairloss
» might be a huge intervention too…a psychic intervention - it affects the
» mental health and so the generell wellbeeing. Here are enough guys in the
» forum who suffer real pain from hairloss. Propecia is a drug and nobody
» should take a drug “that affect your hormones” if it is not necessary. In
» my opinion the circumstances today are especial, with HM and other
» “solutions” on the horizon. Propecia for 2 years…3 years? Perhaps 4
» years? Just to maintain your hair-status? In my opinion it’s worth the
» thought, especially when someone doesn’t experience any side-effects.

Damsy,
You are right, I must say.I’m, too, considering Propecia giving the new lights of HM in the end of this dark tunnel.


#19

I foud this in HLH board

There are many men now experiencing secondary hypogonadism and early Male Andropause (low testosterone/DHT, high Estrogens, low LH/FSH) as a result of usage, and side effects did NOT resolve after quitting.

Many men have been left with decreased semen volume, shrunken penis/nuts, impotence, Peyronie’s Disease (crooked penis), decreased mental capacity and total loss of sex drive, to name but a few. Side effects of this drug are very real and can be dangerous for those that get them, as for the most part they seem to be IRREVERSIBLE and PERMANENT.

Male Andropause, a condition usually seen in men aged 50+, is now affecting young men in their 20s thanks to this drug.

DHT is a vital male hormone and you are playing with fire by messing with it. Finasteride does more than block DHT, it also interferes with:

  • blockade of numerous neurosteroid pathways – such as 5AR-reduction of Progesterone -> Allopregnanolone (via 5a-DHP)

  • blockade of 5AR reduction of Deoxycorticosterone -> 5aTHDOC (via 5a-DHDOC)

  • blockade of 5AR reduction of Androstenedione/Testosterone -> Androstanediol (via 5a-DHT)

  • interference with the brain’s GABA-A receptor, due to depleted Allopregnanolone

If any medical professionals know how to reverse the permanent damage this drug has caused to some men’s endocrine systems, please visit http://www.propeciahelp.com and let us know what the cure is or which doctors have experience treating post-Finasteride side effects.


#20

»
» Rooster that’s Awesome because ,as I mentioned in a previous post,I’m just
» thinking about trying finasteride topically…So what are your
» concentrations, proportions, solution…? and ABOVE all the results ?!

As far as I recall reading on the topic a few years ago, topical finasteride has very poor regrowth qualities. The hair that has grown is thought to be the result of re-absorption into the bloodstream. It appears to be effective, the finasteride needs to be inside the body and not just confined to the skin. By contrast, topical fluridil has been shown to not re-absorb into the blood and has also been shown to increase anagen hair count.

I’m don’t follow topicals much myself. I took oral finasteride 0.05mg/day for 2 months and grew tons of hair but had nut ache and discontinued. That’s been years ago, and I haven’t had a strong enough interest to try anything else since. However, I’m starting to lean toward taking steps to improve my hair. Thus, I’m considering; the topical fluridil. I have a lot of research to do before I jump in though, because I haven’t paid much attention to this topic for awhile.

Another plus for topical fluridil is that it easily dissolves into alcohol so you don’t need to put toxic anti-freeze on your head etc. :stuck_out_tongue: