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Not Much Hope Right Now -- Why I\'m Unconvinced


#1

This forum, and the general enthusiasm for HM and hair regeneration, including “outside the box” solutions like Acell and stem cells, has degenerated into a circus of a thousand voices touting a million products and making a zillion claims, none of which are provable, and many of which are suspicious.

I won’t even get into the “new and improved” products being touted by shills and sc#mmers purporting to be normal HairSite posters.

In the main, I am concerned that the triumph of HM will not be as smooth, or as quick, as many had opined, including myself (in previous incarnations and incantations here on HairSite).

It seems that when injected into the scalp, DP cells alone, or in concert with other disparate types of cells DON’T HAVE A NATURAL TENDENCY TO STICK TOGETHER AND COALESCE INTO A HAIR FOLLICLE, FOLKS!!

What they are missing is the complex endocrinologic signalling that comes from all the many cellular secretions which normally bathe these cells during embryologic and fetal development. During the development of the embryo and fetus, there are proto-follicles (originally derived from the epidermis which is originally derived from primitive NERVOUS SYSTEM tissue, believe it or not). These cells, under influence of stem cells and fetal chemical signals, differentiate into epidermal and mesodermal tissues, together which form the hair follicle.

In contrast to what many claim here, and to what many think, the human hair follicle is not just an organ, but a COMPLEX ORGAN, and in fact, histologically, it is in some ways MORE COMPLEX than most independent organs in the body such as the heart.

You see, the hair follicle is essentially a tiny ball of cells of numerous differentiated cell types (influenced by neighbouring stem cells), all aggregated together – and no one really knows exactly how or why these different cells stick together in that functional, germinative “ball”.

The real reason they stick together in a functional mature human hair follicle is because they were told to, long ago, during fetal development, when these different cells were instructed by chemical signals to form an organ.

It’s a COMPLEX ORGAN, people!!! A tiny but very complex organ, with multiple different cell types crammed together in a three-dimensional “puzzle” – with only one potential possible solution in terms of 3-dimensional arrangement to that puzzle that will yield a functioning, cosmetically viable hair follicle!

I think unfortunately, this may be the root of our longstanding troubles (and the bane of the existences of Aderans, Intercytex, Dr. Roland Lauster at the University of Berlin, Dr. Gho, Dr. Cotsarelis, Dr. Christiano, and so many others…)

The problem is that you can put all these cell types together, but they WON’T EASILY ADHERE and form that functional “ball” – the working hair follicle.

When you inject the cells into the scalp, they immediately start dispersing and moving AWAY from each other, because the embryonic and fetal cell signalling mechanisms are not in place, telling them to stick together and form a follicle.

When you use a “scaffold”, like Aderans is doing in some of its work, it might work A LITTLE better … but not much better, because that scaffold is really no substitute for that EXACT SET OF CHEMICAL SIGNALLING INSTRUCTIONS.

When you do complex experiments involving stem cell growth factors and other things like Dr. Costsarelis is doing, you are really still in kindergarten, because alas, you are STILL NOT replicating the embryonic and fetal signals perfectly. So you can’t easily form a follicle.

When you do what Dr. Lauster is doing, sort of shoving different cell types together in some kind of physical template, you are STILL NOT REPLICATING THE EXCEEDINGLY COMPLEX CHEMICAL SIGNALS PRESENT DURING EMBRYONIC AND FETAL DEVELOPMENT that instruct different cells to unite to form a functioning hair follicle.

Therefore, to my mind (and I HATE to be a pessimist), maybe almost any attempt to inject, forcibly shove, or artificially coax these cells together to form the tiny but complex, multifaceted machine that is a functioning human hair follicle (one which will produce viable, cosmetically NORMAL human hairs), will be doomed to failure.

I really DON’T WANT THIS TO BE THE SITUATION, but what if it is???


#2

tl: dr but who speaks about cell clumps? HSC or Acell work somehow like fertilizer. Even if you like it or not, your follicles are intact for a long time, even if you cant see hairs.

Wait iam gonna read your post again, but it seems that you jump to conclusions here, you speak about cell clumps but there was only one picture who showed this.

And what is wrong with outside of the box solutions? Expanded or Infinite donor IS a CURE or is it not?

If HSC or anything else stops hairloss from progressing, is it a CURE or not.

In my books, both scenarios are cures on different levels. And even on those two levels there are different promising ideas and upcoming techniques.

Oh i forgot about the thirs option Acell/PRP with its different approaches.

Ok and to be fair EVEN a Gho guy (no iam still not conviced 100%) has theoretically found out a way or an idea to expand/infinite your donor.

I really dont understand yout intentions here. You are silent for most of the time, then you start some sad threads about the whole world in shattered pieces, whats wrong with you? Even the greatest sceptics here are not actually that sceptic anymore towards specific treatments.


#3

Although I do not agree with some of the details in your post overall I think this is true and as you put it, it is likely to be a rocky ride from here on in. I think there are a few breakthroughs (in regenerative medicine and follicular anatomy) that will impact over the next few years and after that a product could be in place a few years further down the line, so 10 years from now, I would give it 50:50.


#4

I wouldn’t be so sure about this being impossibly complex.

There are tumours that grow in the body that can form hair, teeth and bone. So obviously there is a way.

My uneducated guess is the stem cells just need a ‘kick’ to start moving in the right direction to form hair follicles.

BTW check out Dr. Roland Lauster. The guy is norwood 6. Hopefully that motivates him to get us the cure.


#5

» I wouldn’t be so sure about this being impossibly complex.
»
» There are tumours that grow in the body that can form hair, teeth and bone.
» So obviously there is a way.

The problem with talking about tumour research is that this is ANATHEMA to the medical and scientific community whenever we’re talking about hairloss research.

Those findings about tumours that can grow teeth, hair, etc. are first off, very old, and secondly, anything that involves tumours and manipulating cell growth in that kind of way is something that doctors want to stay the hell AWAY from. They, and we, might find it very interesting, but it’s like noxious radioactive toxic waste for hairloss researchers. Too risky. And believe me, governments, regulators, and scientists DO CARE about risk and do everything they can to avoid it, especially when it comes to something thought to be as medically “trivial” as hairloss research.


#6

i’m pretty sure just about anything under the sun is researched - especially anomalies like cancerous tissue which generate other tissues and organs.

nothing is ‘stayed away’ from as you put it.

even the drug Thalidomide which caused a ton of birth defects is researched for purposes other than what it was unfortunately introduced for (sedative).

our cure in my opinion will probably come from stem cell research going on in other areas. some researcher somewhere will be using stem cells to do something when he will stumble across how it can be coaxed into generating hair follicles.

I don’t know what Dr. Roland Lauster has come up with but if he is to be believed, then we already have the cure since he claims to be able to generate (fully funcitonal?) hair follicles.

Perhaps we can make up a list of questions to ask him what exactly he has accomplished and when this might be available for MPB. I did not learn much from that german video.


#7

Sure, anything and everything is researched and nothing is stayed away from – except when it comes to connecting things that might change cells’ DNA and initiate tumour formation to hairloss research in the lab.

It’s not that this stuff isn’t researched at all. It’s that because putting new hair on bald guys’ heads is considered low-priority and not a cure to a life-threatening disease, anything that appears even remotely connected with cancer causation is avoided like the plague when connecting the two.

I don’t think that’s what Dr. Lauster is doing, though, anyway. I don’t think he’s using cell growth agents that can change DNA and trigger tumour or cancer formation.

On the other hand, it seems he’s trying to build follicles from their constituent cells (almost like a “Franken-follicle” – and I DON’T mean this in a bad way or as an insult to Dr. Lauster), and if you really read the stories and reports carefully, I think what he’s actually created thus far is very far from a fully-functioning, COSMETICALLY-VIABLE follicle that will put lots of hair on our heads.

Don’t get me wrong, what Lauster has done is a start, and a good one. But I think this work actually has many years to go, at this rate. Anyone who thinks this will result “almost overnight” in new great follicles for everybody is, I think, a bit off their rocker.

I think what Lauster has created is most likely (from a close reading of the reports), a very small aggregate of cells which do produce, or extrude, some keratinous fibre.

In other words, possibly the very first HF that has been made virtually totally “from scratch”. (Although I still wonder exactly what Dr. Yann Barandon in France has done – he’s been out of the news for a long time.)

I think Dr. Lauster’s mini proto “follicles” though are probably way too small and too weak – by several full orders of magnitude – to have a hope of being used cosmetically.

Dr. Lauster has proved SOMETHING can be done on this score, though…

Only time will tell, and HairSite or the Kobren show should definitely interview him.

» i’m pretty sure just about anything under the sun is researched -
» especially anomalies like cancerous tissue which generate other tissues and
» organs.
»
» nothing is ‘stayed away’ from as you put it.
»
» even the drug Thalidomide which caused a ton of birth defects is researched
» for purposes other than what it was unfortunately introduced for
» (sedative).
»
» our cure in my opinion will probably come from stem cell research going on
» in other areas. some researcher somewhere will be using stem cells to do
» something when he will stumble across how it can be coaxed into generating
» hair follicles.
»
» I don’t know what Dr. Roland Lauster has come up with but if he is to be
» believed, then we already have the cure since he claims to be able to
» generate (fully funcitonal?) hair follicles.
»
» Perhaps we can make up a list of questions to ask him what exactly he has
» accomplished and when this might be available for MPB. I did not learn
» much from that german video.


#8

» Only time will tell, and HairSite or the Kobren show should definitely
» interview him.

Good idea.

Now how about you get in contact with Kobren and asking him to interview Dr. Lauster on the bald truth radio show? Please do it.

Meanwhile I’ll compile the questions for the good doctor. That way we can know for sure what has been discovered. Lets hope the guy speaks English.

Right now we are all just guessing our arses away about what he has or does not have.


#9

» This forum, and the general enthusiasm for HM and hair regeneration,
» including “outside the box” solutions like Acell and stem cells, has
» degenerated into a circus of a thousand voices touting a million products
» and making a zillion claims, none of which are provable, and many of which
» are suspicious.
»
» I won’t even get into the “new and improved” products being touted by
» shills and sc#mmers purporting to be normal HairSite posters.
»
» In the main, I am concerned that the triumph of HM will not be as smooth,
» or as quick, as many had opined, including myself (in previous incarnations
» and incantations here on HairSite).
»
» It seems that when injected into the scalp, DP cells alone, or in concert
» with other disparate types of cells DON’T HAVE A NATURAL TENDENCY TO STICK
» TOGETHER AND COALESCE INTO A HAIR FOLLICLE, FOLKS!!
»
» What they are missing is the complex endocrinologic signalling that comes
» from all the many cellular secretions which normally bathe these cells
» during embryologic and fetal development. During the development of the
» embryo and fetus, there are proto-follicles (originally derived from the
» epidermis which is originally derived from primitive NERVOUS SYSTEM tissue,
» believe it or not). These cells, under influence of stem cells and fetal
» chemical signals, differentiate into epidermal and mesodermal tissues,
» together which form the hair follicle.
»
» In contrast to what many claim here, and to what many think, the human hair
» follicle is not just an organ, but a COMPLEX ORGAN, and in fact,
» histologically, it is in some ways MORE COMPLEX than most independent
» organs in the body such as the heart.
»
» You see, the hair follicle is essentially a tiny ball of cells of numerous
» differentiated cell types (influenced by neighbouring stem cells), all
» aggregated together – and no one really knows exactly how or why these
» different cells stick together in that functional, germinative “ball”.
»
» The real reason they stick together in a functional mature human hair
» follicle is because they were told to, long ago, during fetal development,
» when these different cells were instructed by chemical signals to form an
» organ.
»
» It’s a COMPLEX ORGAN, people!!! A tiny but very complex organ, with
» multiple different cell types crammed together in a three-dimensional
» “puzzle” – with only one potential possible solution in terms of
» 3-dimensional arrangement to that puzzle that will yield a functioning,
» cosmetically viable hair follicle!
»
» I think unfortunately, this may be the root of our longstanding troubles
» (and the bane of the existences of Aderans, Intercytex, Dr. Roland Lauster
» at the University of Berlin, Dr. Gho, Dr. Cotsarelis, Dr. Christiano, and
» so many others…)
»
» The problem is that you can put all these cell types together, but they
» WON’T EASILY ADHERE and form that functional “ball” – the working hair
» follicle.
»
» When you inject the cells into the scalp, they immediately start dispersing
» and moving AWAY from each other, because the embryonic and fetal cell
» signalling mechanisms are not in place, telling them to stick together and
» form a follicle.
»
» When you use a “scaffold”, like Aderans is doing in some of its work, it
» might work A LITTLE better … but not much better, because that scaffold
» is really no substitute for that EXACT SET OF CHEMICAL SIGNALLING
» INSTRUCTIONS.
»
» When you do complex experiments involving stem cell growth factors and
» other things like Dr. Costsarelis is doing, you are really still in
» kindergarten, because alas, you are STILL NOT replicating the embryonic and
» fetal signals perfectly. So you can’t easily form a follicle.
»
» When you do what Dr. Lauster is doing, sort of shoving different cell types
» together in some kind of physical template, you are STILL NOT REPLICATING
» THE EXCEEDINGLY COMPLEX CHEMICAL SIGNALS PRESENT DURING EMBRYONIC AND FETAL
» DEVELOPMENT that instruct different cells to unite to form a functioning
» hair follicle.
»
» Therefore, to my mind (and I HATE to be a pessimist), maybe almost any
» attempt to inject, forcibly shove, or artificially coax these cells
» together to form the tiny but complex, multifaceted machine that is a
» functioning human hair follicle (one which will produce viable,
» cosmetically NORMAL human hairs), will be doomed to failure.
»
» I really DON’T WANT THIS TO BE THE SITUATION, but what if it is???

Great post - well written and rational. Though I am holding out hope for Histogen and Follica. I’m much less optimistic about Aderans.


#10

» Great post - well written and rational. Though I am holding out hope for
» Histogen and Follica. I’m much less optimistic about Aderans.

I agree!
I’m less optimistic about aderans and the surgery things (Gho,Hitz/Cool) because of the price you have to pay.
AFAIK Aderans talked about huge prices for their product and for me, all surgery things have a huge price, even if they are gratis;-)
a surgery still is a surgery and in addition the price is not for the mass.

So I’m holding out hope for HSC and Follica too.
Or maybe Lauster brings in a new player :wink:


#11

Naaaaa i would have given more credits to your ideas but its always the same people with the same negative thinkings.

I look forward realistic and semi optimistic because what does it help to look for every downside.

If you guys dont believe in anything then just get yourself a buzzcut and leave the board for example :slight_smile:

Its not like you expressed it the long way its more like Freddie said, they need a kickstart and a little bit of manipulation.

Tha Lauster follicles are to small…have you seen them in persona?


#12

I really should avoid those threads in the future because they make me feel like we were in the 70s or 80s.

@matigol : Iam sorry but i think that you wont get away without a hairtransplant in the future if you want your density and/or more of it back.

And if nobody here believes in stuff like Aderans or Histogen well then you should just bet on something like Acell Plucking. But the reason why most people are not in favor of this, i can understand that to a certain point, is the price tag and the time it takes.

Well iam glad that its only because of the price and not because “It doesnt work” but as always prices will come down over time when more and more competitors are on the market.


#13

…you get like this everytime you forget to take your meds.

» This forum, and the general enthusiasm for HM and hair regeneration,
» including “outside the box” solutions like Acell and stem cells, has
» degenerated into a circus of a thousand voices touting a million products
» and making a zillion claims, none of which are provable, and many of which
» are suspicious.
»
» I won’t even get into the “new and improved” products being touted by
» shills and sc#mmers purporting to be normal HairSite posters.
»
» In the main, I am concerned that the triumph of HM will not be as smooth,
» or as quick, as many had opined, including myself (in previous incarnations
» and incantations here on HairSite).
»
» It seems that when injected into the scalp, DP cells alone, or in concert
» with other disparate types of cells DON’T HAVE A NATURAL TENDENCY TO STICK
» TOGETHER AND COALESCE INTO A HAIR FOLLICLE, FOLKS!!
»
» What they are missing is the complex endocrinologic signalling that comes
» from all the many cellular secretions which normally bathe these cells
» during embryologic and fetal development. During the development of the
» embryo and fetus, there are proto-follicles (originally derived from the
» epidermis which is originally derived from primitive NERVOUS SYSTEM tissue,
» believe it or not). These cells, under influence of stem cells and fetal
» chemical signals, differentiate into epidermal and mesodermal tissues,
» together which form the hair follicle.
»
» In contrast to what many claim here, and to what many think, the human hair
» follicle is not just an organ, but a COMPLEX ORGAN, and in fact,
» histologically, it is in some ways MORE COMPLEX than most independent
» organs in the body such as the heart.
»
» You see, the hair follicle is essentially a tiny ball of cells of numerous
» differentiated cell types (influenced by neighbouring stem cells), all
» aggregated together – and no one really knows exactly how or why these
» different cells stick together in that functional, germinative “ball”.
»
» The real reason they stick together in a functional mature human hair
» follicle is because they were told to, long ago, during fetal development,
» when these different cells were instructed by chemical signals to form an
» organ.
»
» It’s a COMPLEX ORGAN, people!!! A tiny but very complex organ, with
» multiple different cell types crammed together in a three-dimensional
» “puzzle” – with only one potential possible solution in terms of
» 3-dimensional arrangement to that puzzle that will yield a functioning,
» cosmetically viable hair follicle!
»
» I think unfortunately, this may be the root of our longstanding troubles
» (and the bane of the existences of Aderans, Intercytex, Dr. Roland Lauster
» at the University of Berlin, Dr. Gho, Dr. Cotsarelis, Dr. Christiano, and
» so many others…)
»
» The problem is that you can put all these cell types together, but they
» WON’T EASILY ADHERE and form that functional “ball” – the working hair
» follicle.
»
» When you inject the cells into the scalp, they immediately start dispersing
» and moving AWAY from each other, because the embryonic and fetal cell
» signalling mechanisms are not in place, telling them to stick together and
» form a follicle.
»
» When you use a “scaffold”, like Aderans is doing in some of its work, it
» might work A LITTLE better … but not much better, because that scaffold
» is really no substitute for that EXACT SET OF CHEMICAL SIGNALLING
» INSTRUCTIONS.
»
» When you do complex experiments involving stem cell growth factors and
» other things like Dr. Costsarelis is doing, you are really still in
» kindergarten, because alas, you are STILL NOT replicating the embryonic and
» fetal signals perfectly. So you can’t easily form a follicle.
»
» When you do what Dr. Lauster is doing, sort of shoving different cell types
» together in some kind of physical template, you are STILL NOT REPLICATING
» THE EXCEEDINGLY COMPLEX CHEMICAL SIGNALS PRESENT DURING EMBRYONIC AND FETAL
» DEVELOPMENT that instruct different cells to unite to form a functioning
» hair follicle.
»
» Therefore, to my mind (and I HATE to be a pessimist), maybe almost any
» attempt to inject, forcibly shove, or artificially coax these cells
» together to form the tiny but complex, multifaceted machine that is a
» functioning human hair follicle (one which will produce viable,
» cosmetically NORMAL human hairs), will be doomed to failure.
»
» I really DON’T WANT THIS TO BE THE SITUATION, but what if it is???


#14

i have one question though. Roger that you spoke about embryonic surroundings, i am a little confused right now isnt Histogen cultivating their HSC under embryonic conditions?

I really dont know what your intentions are actually but i was checking your postings and well i only saw threads like this popping up from time to time.

Funny thing with that, all you claims in those threads have been explained a few weeks later.

You cant tell me that you would really hate it when you are wrong, cause all the time you start threads like this so i see a little bit of enjoyment on your side.

I really dont get how you can say “The Lauster follicles are to small”. You have never seen them and their aim was to create real follicles to bandon animal testing and for this you have to create REAL follicles.

Its fascinating that you have a negative attitude towards everything which comes to public :slight_smile: but never critizise snake oil. WHich is good for us because it shows that things are turned around snake oil no criticizing and promising stuff critizising :slight_smile: so keep on critizising.

I really cant believe how people can be that sad and grumpy anymore when there is actually moving in research and getting a cure for us IN lifetime.

I can tell you if i would have lived in the 70s or 80s or 90s i would be like you absolutely but in 2011…well no because since 2000 a lot of things have changed rapidly especially when it comes to medical stuff.

And i can tell you that in this days everything is money driven so you can bet your as* that there will be a solution within the next years.

You should always see the obvious, all that stuff right now is “experimental” and “theoretical” but even in this state it produces significant effects on almost every balding scale. And thats only the beginning, but a good start to work with.

And what if Gho really works, just assume it for a moment, then others should adapt this and what would be the result? Right a solution.

And how do you interprete that with the one time injection the haircount increased but goes down a little at 5 month mark and then drastically increased?

Anyways you guys can keep on bleaking your days but i am looking forward in a bright future with hair (but less money :wink:


#15

Histogen say that if you have had an HT it wouldn’t effect your chances of getting HSC.

Now to wait till 2014 is still a long time. Am i stupid if i get a FUE HT now approx 2000 grafts to tempels and mid scalp area? Iv been on minox and propecia for 5 years now.

I would like to add more density to my thinning area.

What do you suggest guys?


#16

No one here can answer you what to do. WHat i would do right now is

Wait till 2012 Jan/feb and then decide what to do. Especially when it comes to Acell matters because i hope that a lot of other surgeons are gonna use it.

But right now i would just wait and eat/ or not Eat Propecia


#17

» No one here can answer you what to do. WHat i would do right now is
»
» Wait till 2012 Jan/feb and then decide what to do. Especially when it comes
» to Acell matters because i hope that a lot of other surgeons are gonna use
» it.
»
» But right now i would just wait and eat/ or not Eat Propecia

Thanks for you advice, because im thinning concealer works really well for me. Im going to wait till next year… Lets hope we hear good things from Histogen n Follica etc


#18

Have fun to read

Thanks to gmonasco for finding it


#19

» Have fun to read
»
» http://www.independent.com/news/2011/feb/12/hair-so-new/
»
» Thanks to gmonasco for finding it

That is a nice find. The link inside the article is a really good read!!!


#20

» » Have fun to read
» »
» » http://www.independent.com/news/2011/feb/12/hair-so-new/
» »
» » Thanks to gmonasco for finding it
»
» That is a nice find. The link inside the article is a really good read!!!

Credits go to gmonasco