New News? Angela Christiano

Stem cell; cell based hair therapy
41

Yes it is common knowlege Hairman. I’ve known it since I was 10 or 11 years old and I think that most 10 or 11 year olds know this. So this means that you are saying that Jahoda is oblivious to common knowledge that most 10 or 11 year olds know. You are basically saying that Jahoda did not notice, or think anything of the fact, that he was putting the cells into a different person than the person he got the cells from even though the person he took the cells from is a man (himself) and the person he put the cells into is a woman. Give me a break! You’re calling Dr. Jahoda an idiot. Dr. Jahoda is both an MD and a Phd and he’s brilliant.

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by hairman2[/postedby]
it is common knowledge that foreign tissue leads to an immune reaction.[/quote]

42

Can anyone show me an example of another medical problem considered anywhere near as frivolous by the mainstream as MPB, which gets treated with person-to-person tissue transplants?

Its not going to happen, Jarjar. That is the bottom line.

We aren’t saying that it cannot be proven safe and effective - we’re saying that it won’t be.

43

But do you admit that I have a valid point that the concern about rejection might be baseless in the case of these specific cells since these cells may really be immune privileged. Will you agree to that?

I mean the medical community has this knowledge about allografts being immune system risky so they get spooked whenever the idea of transplants comes up but there really is some evidence in the case of these specific cells that there is no immunological threat. Would you agree to that?

And would you also agree that there is no evidence that these specific cells are not immune privileged. Would you agree to that too?

44

But what if the medical community only takes this attitude because they are being too hyper-sensitive about the issue of immunological rejection? What if they are allowing their fears about immunological reactions to prevent them from seeing an obvious truth that there is no immunological reaction with these specific cells? What if the concern in this one specific case is not justified by the facts?

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by cal[/postedby]
Can anyone show me an example of another medical problem considered anywhere near as frivolous by the mainstream as MPB, which gets treated with person-to-person tissue transplants?

Its not going to happen, Jarjar. That is the bottom line.

We aren’t saying that it cannot be proven safe and effective - we’re saying that it won’t be.[/quote]

45

If we all rejected paranoia and instead focused just on the facts would we all agree that these are the facts:

  1. There is evidence that these cells are immune privileged.

  2. There is NO evidence that these cells are not immune priviliged.

46

Cal, I’m not saying we should jump in and do it without gathering the facts. I’m saying that we should look at the facts. Maybe some people are being too paranoid about immune responses and their paranoia is preventing them from examining and contemplating the facts.

I think we should all look to try to find at least one example of these specific cells prompting an immune reaction when transplanted from one person to another person. I would like to see just one solid piece of evidence proving an immunological reaction in the case of these cells so I can rule out the idea of transplanting these cells from one person to another. But right now all I am seeing is evidence that transplanting these cells from one person to another person does not prompt an immune response. Please show me one solid piece of evidence that contradicts this so I can accept that it’s a risky mistake to do this.

47

Cal, Nowadays it’s common sense that heavy metal objects can fly through the skies but hundreds of years ago that idea would have been viewed as madness because people’s common sense told them that heavy objects could not sustain flight. People were too busy using their common sense rather than examining and contemplating the facts. Let me repeat that: people were too busy using their common sense rather than examining and contemplating the facts. The thing is that we need to look at the facts here.

All I’m asking for is just one solid piece of evidence that these cells can not be transplanted from one person to another without an immunological response.

48

Maybe that is the problem Hairman. Perhaps we know this information so well that we are being too rigid and closing our minds to solid evidence that there is an important exception in the case of these specific cells. Maybe we are missing out on a possible cure because we are not keeping an open mind.

Maybe Jahoda was willing to try the experiment involving transplanting hair cells from himself to his wife because he has total faith in the exception to an immune reaction in the case of these cells.

Do you accept that there are exceptions to immune reactions or do you dispute that? Do you believe that the immune system rejects 100% of foreign tissue with no exceptions?

[quote]hairman2
it is common knowledge that foreign tissue leads to an immune reaction.div]

49

jarjarbinx: the most hilarious example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in motion I’ve ever seen.

50

<edited - offensive comments>

I’ve posted numerous studies demonstrating that these cells are immune privileged so I’m backing up what I’m saying with hard scientific evidence while you back up your with nothing while projecting confidence.

Below is an article from Bernstein Medical that says I’m right and you’re wrong. Why don’t you post one study that shows you’re right if you can.

And here in italics (italics by me) is the key quote from the article with the most important words being enlarged (by me):

Another interesting aspect of their experiment is that the donor cells came from a male but the recipient, who actually grew the hair, was a female. The importance of this is that donor cells can be transferred from one person to another without being rejected. Since repeat implantations did not provoke the typical rejection responses, even though the donor was of the opposite sex and had a significantly different genetic profile, this indicates that the dermal sheath cells have a special immune status and that the lower hair follicle is one of the bodies “immune privileged” sites.

51

“It’s sounds like you’re making broadly general statements based on limited knowledge.”

Yawn, back when you were in your mother’s womb, and I was having direct conversations with guys like Stenn and Jahoda, I realized Jahoda would never be able to bring this research to fruition because he lacks the experience and skills necessary to accomplish this.

Look, I’m not telling you anything here anyone that is familiar with Jahoda’s research doesn’t already know. Jahoda freely admits this and even talked about it in an interview today.

COLIN JAHODA: "For me it’s more of a proof of principle thing in the sense that someone had to show that we could do this multiplication step. The next stage is really to, you know, cosmetically, people are only going to be happy with a follicle that grows hair that’s the right length, the right color, grows in the right direction etc, so you know there’s a whole secondary step that has to be taken.

SOME OF THEM ARE ALMOST KIND OF ALMOST ENGINEERING PROBLEMS THAT ARE NOT REALLY MY SCIENCE. BUT WHAT IT WILL DO IS IT WILL SPARK A LOT OF INTEREST IN PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO DO THIS KIND OF THING TO TAKE IT FORWARD, I THINK."

So although, you might not like what I said, and you might want to get me to take it back, I can’t take back the truth and replace it with a lie in an attempt to provide you with false hope.

“James, you’ve written thousands of words about Dr. Gho, praising him, defending him, implying that he’s found the “cure” based on “HM” and that he and he alone knows/knew what it was, you don’t say a single word about him now.”

That’s not true. I praised Gho for being in the forefront of the science and felt at the time that he was the researcher who was best positioned to bring hair multiplication to fruition. It’s important to realize, I was not a one trick pony back in those days. I was also having direct conversations with Kemp, Jahoda, Kim, and many others. This helped me to realize that Gho truly was in the lead. Since that time, me, you, and many others subsequently put our faith in ICX, Aderans, etc. Unfortunately, these guys simply ended up duplicating Gho’s earlier research and wound up failing at the exact same stage(consistency issues). Are you now claiming that you did not hype Aderans and knew all along it would end in failure?

Next up, Kevin McElwee, who I also corresponded with a time or two back in the day. Interestingly, I got less information and enthusiasm from him than any other researcher I contacted (including Jahoda). Not that his ongoing research effort will end in failure. But nearest I can tell, his current effort is very similar to what the rest have already tried before. Unless he has added something dramatically new that he is hiding from public eye, there is a very strong chance he will end up where the others who came before him did. Can you supply a valid argument to the contrary?

Guys like Nigam come along, hype themselves, say a couple of buzzwords, and get people to believe they are right around the corner from a cure. And all it takes to gain a hoard of groupies is to use the same old photo and lighting techniques that hair transplant clinics have used for ages.

I say what I say not because I’m uninformed on the subject matter. I say it because I’ve already been here, I’ve already seen this, and I’ve already done this. The tricks that fool you into believing you are looking at a brand new car appear to me to be the same old car disguised behind a brand new paint job.

“If these are “dark days” of Hair Multiplication, then how did we get here, if Gho had the secret all along?”

Once again, Gho foresaw the future and performed these experiments well out in front of the rest of the world. Unfortunately, he couldn’t figure out the consistency problem, and he failed. Seeing others follow down the exact same path and end up failing, it’s obvious this is par for the course. If anything, it supports my earlier claim that we have reached the dark days of hair multiplication.

You ask who has ever done what Jahoda has done? I’m surprised you asked, because you already know the answer. In order to explain this, let’s look at how Jahoda describes this new breakthrough:

COLIN JAHODA: “What we’ve done differently here is taken a small bit of the follicle, small bit of tissue, multiplying out the cells in that tissue. But when you put that into the skin, that structure interacts with the environment and creates a new, completely new, follicle.”

Like I said, same old car disguised behind a brand new paint job.

“Please, let’s give Jahoda and Christiano some credit for trying this, expanding the scope of research, and pursuing these ideas. Don’t you think they know about what Aderans’ successes and failures were?”

No they do not know about Aderans’ successes and failures. That’s exactly my point. They are speaking from what has been done in academia. This is a very different world from what has occurred in the private sector. Let’s see, Jahoda’s funding way under $1 million. Aderans’ funding $150 million.

I stand by my earlier statements. But please don’t confuse this with me claiming that hair multiplication is dead. As Dr. Paul Kemp, current CSO of Intercytex pointed out, in advancing new treatments, after much initial enthusiasm, the industry reaches a lull where people give up on the idea. Eventually, a new generation rises up with a crop of new ideas and brings forth the cure.

We are currently in the lull. If you don’t think so, tell me who has $150 million more dollars to see this treatment to fruition? The answer is, these are the dark days of hair multiplication.

jb

52

Not exactly. There are minor aspects of the research that are not available elsewhere in the public literature, and in that sense it is interesting.

But as far as a novel cure for baldness is concerned, in 1998 Tom Barrows seeded DP cells into a 3d matrix, implanted this into a human scalp at the dermal-epidermal junction, and grew new hair follicles. After a stint at Aderans Research where he was unable to turn this research into a viable treatment, he is still trying to perfect the technique using a more modernized approach.

In short, Oliver was one of the original pioneers of this research. Jahoda was his understudy and performed the necessary fundamental research to inspire others, and these others have since furthered the research beyond where Jahoda has been. Since this research has occurred in the private sector, it isn’t common knowledge to many.

The big take away from Jahoda’s latest study is DP cells lose their ability to create hair follicles when cultured. I first spoke to Dr. Kim many years ago about this problem and the cDNA microarray work he had done while attempting to address this issue. Sometime later, Gho told me he had ran into the issue and given up on this cell type. Later, Jahoda was surprised when he implanted these cells in his wife’s arm and they didn’t result in hair growth.

Understanding this has represented one of the big limitations to performing a consistently viable hair restoration treatment, Jahoda has followed up on his earlier research in rats where he discovered culturing DP cells in 3D leads to an increase in their hair producing ability. So he used a modern 3D culturing approach to show that DP cells can indeed grow new follicles in human skin. It’s important to note, Jahada’s cultured cells only had 22 percent of the gene expression of healthy DP cells, so there is still much work to be done (I.E. Jahoda’s technique only resulted in partial restoration of the cells’ hair producing ability).

This is not revelational to hair multiplication researchers, but makes for an interesting experiment and news tidbit. I had a conversation about this subject with Kurt Stenn quite a few years back. It’s well known stuff among researchers.

53

James Bond when Jahoda put the cells into his wife’s arm the cells did result in hair growth so you are totally wrong on that issue.

Also I’m not sure if Jahoda cultured the cells into more cells before putting the cells into his wife’s arms. Some sources say he did and some say he didn’t. We need to clear this issue up one way or the other.

54

James Bond you talk and assert a lot of stuff but some of the key things you say are absolutely, totally 100% incorrect. You said in a different thread that Collin Jahoda did not grow hair on his wife’s arm using Collin Jahoda’s hair cells, but Collin Jahoda did do exactly that. You are absolutely, totally 100% incorrect.

55

Yes but I assume 3d sphere techniques were not born out of HM research. And future advances are likely to come from specialized teams working solely on 3d culture methods and not from the HM teams themselves. So maybe these are the dark days of HM because they have run out of ideas to nick from other research, but stem cell research is booming right now and that is where the advances are likely to come from.

56

James Bond, how can you deny that there is a fundamental difference between Aderans’ failure and what Jahoda has managed to do. Aderans publically admitted that they merely were able to rejuvenate hair follicles which had most recently been lost (i.e. the outer rim of the hair loss area).

Dr Jahoda on the other hand has managed to create whole new de-novo follicles. How is this not a fundamental difference? Sorry but I simply do not see this as a old car with different paint.

57

James, I’m curious as to how you find yourself qualified to judge Dr. Jahoda as unqualified, lacking in “experience and skills” to do this kind of research?

What exactly are your qualifications to make that statement?

You may have spoken with Dr. Jahoda 100 times, but here are his qualifications:

https://www.dur.ac.uk/research/directory/staff/?id=25

That looks like considerably more than Dr. Gho’s – who by the way, doesn’t seem to list his qualifications anywhere. (I’m not saying Gho isn’t a doctor and a dermatologist, but what exactly makes him so qualified that his research is head and shoulders above Jahoda’s and Christiano’s?)

To be clear, Dr. Jahoda has both an M.D. and a Ph.D. and has conducted a tremendous amount of advanced research on relevant subjects.

Furthermore, you are taking Dr. Jahoda’s own words out of context. Jahoda never “admitted” he was unqualified to conduct this research. Hell, if he thought he was unqualified, would he be doing it at all?

What he meant was, he and Dr. Christiano have made the initial breakthrough, and now it is up to specialists in various fields to push the research envelope further and work out details like hair pigmentation, orientation, density, etc.

Not that Jahoda would have no ability to assist with any of those things. He just meant that there are people who may be able to build on his foundation to perfect the techniques he’s developed.

In that, I’d say he’s being pretty humble, considering his very strong qualifications. It looks like he’s not interested in monopolizing this research and cornerning the market for commercial gain. He’s inviting other researchers to come in and expand on this foundation. What’s the problem with that?

And as Hairman and I have pointed out, he and Dr. Christiano have proven that they’re creating brand new follicles here. How is that not an major advancement over Aderans (and Gho, and all the others), who never proved they could do this?

Would be interested to hear your remarks. Of course, you’ll probably give a very long, complex explanation with a lot of references to all the past conversations you’ve had with researchers. But it looks like you’re confused because the basic issues are very simple here:

  1. Dr. Jahoda and Dr. Christiano are qualified to do this research

  2. Dr. Jahoda is not trying to achieve a commercial monopoly on this like some people have tried to do (e.g, Gho). In fact he is INVITING other researchers to come in and contribute to the work he’s already developed.

  3. Drs. Jahoda and Christiano are not making inflated claims, mislabeling procedures for marketing purposes, e.g. “Hair Stemcell Transplantation”, or creating shell companies to develop vaporware.

  4. Drs. Jahoda and Christiano have created brand new follicles (neogenesis), whereas Gho, Aderans, and the others never proved they could do this.

58

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by James Bond[/postedby]
“It’s sounds like you’re making broadly general statements based on limited knowledge.”

Yawn, back when you were in your mother’s womb, and I was having direct conversations with guys like Stenn and Jahoda, I realized Jahoda would never be able to bring this research to fruition because he lacks the experience and skills necessary to accomplish this.

Look, I’m not telling you anything here anyone that is familiar with Jahoda’s research doesn’t already know. Jahoda freely admits this and even talked about it in an interview today.

COLIN JAHODA: "For me it’s more of a proof of principle thing in the sense that someone had to show that we could do this multiplication step. The next stage is really to, you know, cosmetically, people are only going to be happy with a follicle that grows hair that’s the right length, the right color, grows in the right direction etc, so you know there’s a whole secondary step that has to be taken.

SOME OF THEM ARE ALMOST KIND OF ALMOST ENGINEERING PROBLEMS THAT ARE NOT REALLY MY SCIENCE. BUT WHAT IT WILL DO IS IT WILL SPARK A LOT OF INTEREST IN PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO DO THIS KIND OF THING TO TAKE IT FORWARD, I THINK."

So although, you might not like what I said, and you might want to get me to take it back, I can’t take back the truth and replace it with a lie in an attempt to provide you with false hope.

“James, you’ve written thousands of words about Dr. Gho, praising him, defending him, implying that he’s found the “cure” based on “HM” and that he and he alone knows/knew what it was, you don’t say a single word about him now.”

That’s not true. I praised Gho for being in the forefront of the science and felt at the time that he was the researcher who was best positioned to bring hair multiplication to fruition. It’s important to realize, I was not a one trick pony back in those days. I was also having direct conversations with Kemp, Jahoda, Kim, and many others. This helped me to realize that Gho truly was in the lead. Since that time, me, you, and many others subsequently put our faith in ICX, Aderans, etc. Unfortunately, these guys simply ended up duplicating Gho’s earlier research and wound up failing at the exact same stage(consistency issues). Are you now claiming that you did not hype Aderans and knew all along it would end in failure?

Next up, Kevin McElwee, who I also corresponded with a time or two back in the day. Interestingly, I got less information and enthusiasm from him than any other researcher I contacted (including Jahoda). Not that his ongoing research effort will end in failure. But nearest I can tell, his current effort is very similar to what the rest have already tried before. Unless he has added something dramatically new that he is hiding from public eye, there is a very strong chance he will end up where the others who came before him did. Can you supply a valid argument to the contrary?

Guys like Nigam come along, hype themselves, say a couple of buzzwords, and get people to believe they are right around the corner from a cure. And all it takes to gain a hoard of groupies is to use the same old photo and lighting techniques that hair transplant clinics have used for ages.

I say what I say not because I’m uninformed on the subject matter. I say it because I’ve already been here, I’ve already seen this, and I’ve already done this. The tricks that fool you into believing you are looking at a brand new car appear to me to be the same old car disguised behind a brand new paint job.

“If these are “dark days” of Hair Multiplication, then how did we get here, if Gho had the secret all along?”

Once again, Gho foresaw the future and performed these experiments well out in front of the rest of the world. Unfortunately, he couldn’t figure out the consistency problem, and he failed. Seeing others follow down the exact same path and end up failing, it’s obvious this is par for the course. If anything, it supports my earlier claim that we have reached the dark days of hair multiplication.

You ask who has ever done what Jahoda has done? I’m surprised you asked, because you already know the answer. In order to explain this, let’s look at how Jahoda describes this new breakthrough:

COLIN JAHODA: “What we’ve done differently here is taken a small bit of the follicle, small bit of tissue, multiplying out the cells in that tissue. But when you put that into the skin, that structure interacts with the environment and creates a new, completely new, follicle.”

Like I said, same old car disguised behind a brand new paint job.

“Please, let’s give Jahoda and Christiano some credit for trying this, expanding the scope of research, and pursuing these ideas. Don’t you think they know about what Aderans’ successes and failures were?”

No they do not know about Aderans’ successes and failures. That’s exactly my point. They are speaking from what has been done in academia. This is a very different world from what has occurred in the private sector. Let’s see, Jahoda’s funding way under $1 million. Aderans’ funding $150 million.

I stand by my earlier statements. But please don’t confuse this with me claiming that hair multiplication is dead. As Dr. Paul Kemp, current CSO of Intercytex pointed out, in advancing new treatments, after much initial enthusiasm, the industry reaches a lull where people give up on the idea. Eventually, a new generation rises up with a crop of new ideas and brings forth the cure.

We are currently in the lull. If you don’t think so, tell me who has $150 million more dollars to see this treatment to fruition? The answer is, these are the dark days of hair multiplication.

jb[/quote]

I hope you are wrong but you make sense. Most likely looking more funding…

59

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by jarjarbinx[/postedby]
James Bond when Jahoda put the cells into his wife’s arm the cells did result in hair growth so you are totally wrong on that issue.[/quote]

No, I am most definitely not wrong!

The “Trans-gender induction of hair follicles” study from 1999 involved three separate cell tissue implantations spread out over time. The first time, they implanted Jahoda’s dermal sheath tissue. The second time they implanted Jahoda’s dermal sheath tissue in some sites and his dermal papillae tissue in others. The third time, they implanted another guy’s dermal sheath tissue.

In all cases, every site with the implanted dermal sheath tissue resulted in growing hair that was thicker and darker than the surrounding hairs. But IN NO CASE DID A DERMAL PAPILLAE IMPLANTATION SITE GROW HAIR.

The lack of dermal papillae-induced hair growth greatly perplexed Jahoda, because the DP is thought to be a rich reservoir of multi-potent stem cells. In fact, some DP cells (SOX2-positive) are the origin of skin-derived progenitor cells. So while Jahoda’s research outcome remains a mystery, there is much speculation among his peers as to why it occurred. (You’ve heard me rant about DP stem cell markers in the past.)

Just to be clear, I’m not furthering a theory that the hair did not grow due to losing DP cells losing inductivity in culture (if I recall correctly, these were DP tissue implants?). But the fact is, Jahoda’s main focus of research in 2013 is to find mechanisms that will maintain inductivity in cultured human hair follicle dermal cells.

The reason, I’m raising a stink about this is because it’s the exact same focus of Moonkyu Kim’s research 15 years ago. Why do cultured DP cells primarily express myofibroblast like characteristic genes as opposed to expressing like in vivo dermal papilla, which show complete down regulation of myofibroblast like characteristic genes and instead overexpress other gene types?

It’s aggravating to see a study released in 2013 get so much hype when it’s simply the same old study I’ve been reading for 15 years with a slightly new paint job!

These are the advancements that have occurred since Jahoda’s 1999 study:

  1. Limat, Osada, and Roh advanced culture media that extend the time for which DP cells can be cultured.

  2. Kishimoto and Rendl showed Wnt and Bmp signalling can aid in preserving DP cells.

  3. Osada and Higgens showed DP cells can be preserved when cultured in 3D together with keratinocytes on extracellular matrix substrates in order to mimic the in vivo microenvironment.

Jahoda used advancement 1 and 3 in his latest study to show that we are only 22% of the way there. I fail to see why people are proclaiming this to be such a huge breakthrough and getting so excited about it?

OK, off to a different topic. Why did Gho, McElwee, and other researchers not use DP cells in their experiments? Because they found other cells that are naturally more inductive when cultured.

Researchers have attacked this problem from every angle, and so far they have come up short. I’m not saying that hair multiplication won’t eventually be figured out. I’m simply pointing out that, if anything, Jahoda’s study shows nobody is close to developing a marketable hair multiplication treatment. Yet, people are acting as though this study proves the cure is right around the corner.

I realize you guys don’t like what I’m saying, so you are attacking every word I say. I assure you, I don’t like it either, but what else can I do other than tell it like it is?

60

http://www.baldnessbattlers.com/ptptransplant.htm

http://www.hairsite.com/i-person-to-person.htm

http://www.nature.com/news/1999/991104/full/news991104-12.html

http://articles.mcall.com/1999-11-07/news/3277388_1_unwanted-hair-chin-vaniqa

I could go on and on and on with more articles showing that you are wrong.

Here’s the world-renowned Dr. Bernstein saying that Collin Jahoda’s hair cells did grow hair on his wife’s arm:

I wanted to see if there was even one person (besides you) saying that Collin Jahoda’s hair cells did not grow hair on his wife’s arm so I typed into google “Collin Jahoda’s hair cells did not grow hair on his wife’s arm” and only one link came up. The one link said “Meet an incorrect fool named James Bond.” You see you are the only person saying the stupid sh!t that you are saying.