MPB is related to fungus and dandruff ie why nizoral works aside from androgens

Your contribution to the forum is not a flame, goat. You brought up a very valid question.

I think the ‘mystery’ here is that prolonged DHT exposure, in many (though NOT ALL) men with MPB, leads to long-term tissue inflammation (usually invisible to the naked eye) which causes not only miniaturization of follicles (as in everyone with MPB), but also fibrosis of the tissues.

Fibrosis is the end result when either physical injury, or tissue damage (including microscopic tissue damage) occurs in a tissue and it heals imperfectly. Fibrosis is a process by which normal, healthy tissues are replaced with almost-useless “fibrotic tissue”. Active hair follicles can’t exist in in fibrotic tissue, and no hair will grow.

That’s why SOME men (though NOT ALL) who use finasteride or dutasteride, and are blocking/eliminating almost all the DHT, still can’t grow any hair back. It is because long-term DHT exposure has caused fibrosis of the hair-growing tissue of the scalp.

Fortunately, HM, as it is conceived, will work not only by rejuvenating miniaturized (but still viable) follicles, but also by creating new ones.

True, HM will probably work much better in men who have experienced little fibrosis, because they will still have many miniaturized follicles that are still viable, and can still be rejuvenated. But even in men with fibrosis, some new follicles should be expected to be induced by HM, so all is not lost.

My prediction is that a good rough indicator of how well HM will work on you, is, if your scalp has been “slick bald” for a long time, and almost no tiny vellus hairs are visible, this is a sign of fibrosis, and the main benefit will be by follicular neogenesis.

I believe HM will work better in those patients who still have a lot of vellus, or a mixture of terminal and vellus hairs visible on their scalps in the bald/balding areas. This is a sign that there’s not a lot of fibrosis, and HM will work both by rejuvenating miniaturized follicles and by inducing new ones.

These are just my opinions, but it does answer one of your questions – why finasteride and dutasteride don’t work well in some people.

Incidentally, it’s not out of the question that fungus might INCREASE the tendency to fibrosis of the follicles, but only in males who already have MPB. Females are exposed to fungus just as much as males, but women don’t go bald in equal numbers as men. Therefore, just from that simple empirical evidence, we know that there must be some sex-mediated factor contributing to genetic alopecia. If fungus were the principal culprit, and not DHT, one would expect just as many bald/balding women as bald/balding men.

» Nizoral is a drug that is universally used as a “mycostatic”, or killer of
» fungi and related “mycelial infections”, by doctors. It is not known or
» used as an anti-androgen, and its anti-androgen effects, if any, are not
» widely described. (The only time I’ve seen anything about that was the
» article someone posted here that indicated it MIGHT have anti-androgen
» effects – and this one study is highly anecdotal.)

As many times as the antiandrogenc effects of ketoconazole have been discussed on hairloss forums, I’m astonished that you aren’t more familiar with that. Following is the abstract of the original study that first documented it:

Horm Metab Res. 1992 Aug;24(8):367-70.
“Ketoconazole binds to the human androgen receptor.” Eil C.
Department of Internal Medicine, Naval Hospital, Bethesda, Maryland.

Ketoconazole, an imidazole anti-fungal agent, has often produced features of androgen deficiency including decreased libido, gynecomastia, impotence, oligospermia, and decreased testosterone levels, in men being treated for chronic mycotic infections. Based on these potent effects on gonadal function in vivo as well as previous work in vitro demonstrating affinity of ketoconazole for receptor proteins for glucocorticoids and 1,25(OH)2 vitamin D3 and for sex steroid binding globulin (SSBG), the binding of ketoconazole to human androgen receptors (AR) in vitro was also examined. Ketoconazole competition with [3H]methyltrienolone (R1881) for androgen binding sites in dispersed, intact cultured human skin fibroblasts was determined at 22 degrees C. Fifty percent displacement of [3H]R1881 binding to AR was achieved by 6.4 +/- 1.8 (SE) x 10(-5) M ketoconazole. Additional binding studies performed with ketoconazole in the presence of increasing amounts of [3H]R1881 showed that the interaction of ketoconazole with AR was competitive when the data were analyzed by the Scatchard method. It should be noted, however, that the dose of ketoconazole required for 50% occupancy of the androgen receptor is not likely to be achieved in vivo, at least in plasma. Finally, androgen binding studies performed with other imidazoles, such as clotrimazole, miconazole, and fluconozole, revealed that in this class of compounds only ketoconazole appears to interact with the androgen receptor. Ketoconazole appears to be the first example of a non-steroidal compound which binds competitively to both SSBG and multiple steroid hormone receptors, suggesting that the ligand binding sites of these proteins share some features in common.

» As for Nizoral “working”, I don’t think anybody’s ever done a closed,
» double-blind study of JUST NIZORAL and come up with any seriously positive
» results.

Even though it wasn’t double-blind, you HAVE read the original Piérard-Franchimont et al study of Nizoral for MPB, right? :wink:

It’s probably because I have zero interest in topicals.

» » As for Nizoral “working”, I don’t think anybody’s ever done a closed,
» » double-blind study of JUST NIZORAL and come up with any seriously
» positive
» » results.
»
» Even though it wasn’t double-blind, you HAVE read the original
» Piérard-Franchimont et al study of Nizoral for MPB, right? :wink:

I didn’t say Nizoral can’t help a little bit, I’m just saying it’s futile and a waste of time to concentrate on fungus as a cause of MPB, when MPB is caused by androgen sensitivity. Things like which obscure, off-label topical is likely to have this or that marginal effect are of almost no interest to me.

I’m a 100% HM person – it’s really all I know or care about. HM is the ultimate answer for hairloss, and I’ve known that for about 10 years. All the rest, to me, is noise.

» It’s probably because I have zero interest in topicals.

You waste too much time on the HM forum, JTR. You need to get out more and look at the serious treatments, including topicals! :wink:

» » It’s probably because I have zero interest in topicals.
»
» You waste too much time on the HM forum, JTR. You need to get out more
» and look at the serious treatments, including topicals! :wink:

Thanks Bryan, but it’s a calculated use of my time. True, I spend a lot of time paying attention to HM. It’s like a “hobby” for me. I am completely satisfied with my life, I’ve been using dutasteride 2-3 months on and one month off for about 5 years, and that’s my whole regimen. I’m not worried about growing more hair now (especially in marginal amounts). I’m not interested in turning the quest for hair into a life-consuming project where I have to know all the names of all the drugs, and read all the medical papers. I have a great job, I’m married with a daughter, and I travel an incredible amount. I’m focused on enjoying life.

The reason HM is sort of a hobby or preoccupation for me is that I regard it as the ultimate answer to hairloss that we’re likely to see in our lifetimes (or at least before we’re too old to really care). I’m only interested in “absolute” cures, or a “near-absolute” cure like HM. Topicals, copper-peptides, obscure anti-androgens, holistic preparations, etc. have almost no interest for me, except as curiosities. Anything that does not have the hope of restoring a reasonably full head of hair, as easily as possible and without side-effects, has no interest.

That’s why it’s only a very rare bit of news about a topical, like Osteoscreen’s OSH-101, that ever piques my interest.

» » Even though it wasn’t double-blind, you HAVE read the original
» » Piérard-Franchimont et al study of Nizoral for MPB, right? :wink:
»
» I didn’t say Nizoral can’t help a little bit, I’m just saying it’s futile
» and a waste of time to concentrate on fungus as a cause of MPB, when MPB
» is caused by androgen sensitivity.

But you’re simply ASSUMING that using Nizoral is a “concentration on fungus”, when that may not be in fact the real reason for using it for MPB. As several of us have already pointed out, the antiandrogenic effect of ketoconazole may be the primary (or even sole) reason for its apparent beneficial effect on MPB.

BTW, you didn’t answer my question. Have you read the French study of Nizoral for MPB?

» I’m a 100% HM person – it’s really all I know or care about. HM is the
» ultimate answer for hairloss, and I’ve known that for about 10 years.
» All the rest, to me, is noise.

Yes, I know. And I couldn’t disagree with you more. I’m very skeptical of HM. I question whether successful HM technology will ever come out. I’ll believe it when I see it.

» BTW, you didn’t answer my question. Have you read the French study of
» Nizoral for MPB?

No, and I’m not really interested in it, either. Like I said, I have no interest in anything which produces marginal, anecdotal, or highly variable results. I am a NW 3 or 3.5, and if it can’t bring back most of my hair or grow back a cosmetically full head of hair, in my book it’s a complete waste of MY time.

I can, however, understand how others might be interested in this. If, for instance, I were just starting to lose hair, then it might interest me.

» Yes, I know. And I couldn’t disagree with you more. I’m very skeptical
» of HM. I question whether successful HM technology will ever come out.
» I’ll believe it when I see it.

Then we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. We’re on diametrically opposite sides of this issue. I’m a died-in-the-wool HM person and I’ll never change.

Just because there’s fungus on a bald head, does not mean the fungus caused baldness.

No more than ants at a picnic made the sandwich.

» Year : 2002 | Volume : 47 | Issue : 4 | Page : 224-226
»
» Evaluation of the coincidence of male pattern baldness and pityrosporum
» group of fungus in Iran.
»
» Javanbakht A, Famili S, Amirmajdi MM
» Department of Dermatology, Qaem Hospital, Mashhed University of Medical
» Sciences, Mashhed, Iran
»
» Correspondence Address:
» Javanbakht A
» Department of Dermatology, Qaem Hospital, Mashhed University of Medical
» Sciences, Mashhed
» Iran
» ABSTRACT: The aetilogy of male pattern baldness (MPB) is not clearly found
» yet. The present study has been designed to determine if there is a
» significant statistical coincidence between MPB and pityrosporum group of
» fungal infection. This cross-sectional study covers 50 men with the
» diagnosis of MPB who visited the dermatology clinic of Qaem hospital of
» Mashhad Medical University as the case group and 43 men with no evidence
» of MPB as the control group. A questionnaire was filled out for each
» person of the two groups and mycological sampling was done from three
» parts of the case group scalp (bald, balding, intact areas) and two parts
» of the control group scalp (vertex and parietal). All the data were
» analysed using the software SPSS 10.00 and Chi-square, Pearson Chi-square
» and Friedman tests. Results showed that there was no difference between
» different degrees of infection in the intact area (P0.05). Among the three
» parts of the case group scalp, bald area had the highest degree of
» infection (P0.001). The degree of infection in the bald area of the case
» group scalp was higher than that of the vertex area of the control group
» scalp (P0.001), while there was no difference between the degrees of
» infection in the intact area of the case group scalp and the parietal area
» of the control group scalp (P0.05). This study supports some previous
» studies that claimed that there might be coincidence between MPB and
» pityrosporum fungal infection.

» » BTW, you didn’t answer my question. Have you read the French study of
» » Nizoral for MPB?
»
» No, and I’m not really interested in it, either. Like I said, I have no
» interest in anything which produces marginal, anecdotal, or highly
» variable results. I am a NW 3 or 3.5, and if it can’t bring back most of
» my hair or grow back a cosmetically full head of hair, in my book it’s a
» complete waste of MY time.

Then why are you taking dutasteride??

I think you’ll have to admit that I’ve caught you on that one! :slight_smile: Most everybody (even YOU) will have to admit that even simply maintaining what you have is something greatly to be desired; otherwise, you wouldn’t be using dutasteride.

The French doctor found a stabilization of hairloss, too, with the use of Nizoral shampoo (at least over the duration of the study, which was not insignificant).

» Then we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. We’re on diametrically
» opposite sides of this issue. I’m a died-in-the-wool HM person and I’ll
» never change.

Indeed. I just hope you don’t bet the farm on HM! :wink:

» » » BTW, you didn’t answer my question. Have you read the French study of
» » » Nizoral for MPB?
» »
» » No, and I’m not really interested in it, either. Like I said, I have
» no
» » interest in anything which produces marginal, anecdotal, or highly
» » variable results. I am a NW 3 or 3.5, and if it can’t bring back most
» of
» » my hair or grow back a cosmetically full head of hair, in my book it’s
» a
» » complete waste of MY time.
»
» Then why are you taking dutasteride??

I believe more in systemic drugs to combat hairloss than in topicals (although I admit that systemic drugs, too, can be risky and will only ever hope to deliver marginal results). I take dutasteride simply to keep what I have intact, in preparation for HM. Dutasteride has performed admirably in this regard. There is no visible difference now in my hair compared to the way it was when I started on duta.

» Just because there’s fungus on a bald head, does not mean the fungus caused
» baldness.
»
» No more than ants at a picnic made the sandwich.

Exacto.

I agree with the last statement, no one is saying FUNGUS causes MPB!

But what this new info i posted is supposed to show is that fungal inflammation is also a problem for people with MPB. So if you wanted to treat the problem you now have another angle to attack, apart from the more common knowledge of Androgen suppression DHT.

And the reason i am posting this is that it makes sense to why Ketoconazole topicals work , one by suppressing the androgen receptor and also by an antifungal action. I think this is very important becuase internals like propecia and Dutasterdine do not directly target the fungus on the scalp and neither does minoxidil.

And when using the correct topical and application regime they may work and work very well ! If you look at the photos in the recent Japan photo you will see significant regrowth, we know regrowth is the hardest, maintaining or slowing loss is a lot easier.

Thats why i posted the above as further evidence of the growing studies and info on benefits topical ketoconazole for MPB.

FOr me its a must have in any regime and i wouldnt put all my eggs in one basket either Bryan waitng for HM !! U have to slow the loss of what u still have, their is no down sides or common side effect to using a KETO shampoo 4 times per week, unless you cant tolerate KETO at all.

Also its exciting becuase their are new better KETO containing shampoos and topicals that have just come out this year, that may even work better than Nizoral, like Revita or Extina or Keto Oil or Keto Mousse.

» » Just because there’s fungus on a bald head, does not mean the fungus
» caused
» » baldness.
» »
» » No more than ants at a picnic made the sandwich.
»
» Exacto.

» Just because there’s fungus on a bald head, does not mean the fungus caused
» baldness.
»
» No more than ants at a picnic made the sandwich.
»

Ahab has ended this thread.