More evidence that fungal & bacterial treatments grow hair in general

» ketoconazole,

Yes, keto is helpful against hair loss, as I mentioned. But there is no proof that the reason for its effectiveness is because it kills fungus. On the contrary, the effect is generally attributed to its anti-androgen properties.

» reservatrol,

I haven’t heard about it before. I did a cursory search but didn’t find anything to suggest it had been proven to prevent hair loss. It is an anti-inflammatory (in mice at least). So if it actually is effective against hair loss, that could well be the reason.

» half of the topicals the natural guys use,

Can’t comment on that unless you enumerate them. I general, though, that type of anectodal evidence isn’t very credible. Published, peer-reviewed double-blind placebo studies are what really count. Preferably in humans. Naturally there can be other indications that something works, but that can hardly be called “overwhelming evidence”.

» triclosan (this one is anecdotal, a guy on hlh claimed that an antibiotic
» which name I forgot (all I remember is that it was in the same group as
» triclosan is, stopped & reversed his hairloss, and was affraid to cease the
» treatment),

You said it: anecdotal. There are a billion factors which could have contributed to his reversal, if he indeed exists, indeed isn’t a mouse, indeed was balding and indeed reversed his hair loss. :stuck_out_tongue:

» but piroctone olamine is antibacterial as well,

Is it? As far as I can tell, it is effective against fungal infections, not bacteria (perhaps I’m being anal). Anyway, I can’t find any reliable sources that conclude that it is helpful against hair loss. Obviously, it is even harder to find any sources that conclude that it is helpful against hair loss specifically because it kill bacteria (or fungus). I found a company or two who claim that their product containing PO will give you your hair back. Needless to say, that counts for nothing.

» Roxithromycin is in clinical trials for mpb,

I look forward to seeing the results of that trial. As of yet, I haven’t seen anything. Until then, no conclusions should be made. But it is interesting, so thanks for the heads-up!

» this patent up in my first post cites
» penicilin. It also claims that kaphlex, doxycycline (this is the one that
» the guy sweared by! I now remember), and erythrocin (all being antibiotics)
» grow hair.

The patent is not proof that it works, much less proof that it works against hair loss because it kills fungus or bacteria. Actually, the patent mentions the synthetic steroid hydrocortisone, among other things, which is a fairly powerful anti-inflammatory. Once again, an autoimmune system disorder (i.e. chronic inflammation), could account for its potential success.

» And if you google you could carry on like that almost forever.

I don’t have that much time. If I google for 5 years, the cure will be here anyway… :smiley:

» I rather think its all just part of bigger picture rather then two
» different causes

Possibly. You might very well be right about that.

» ok and how about the other antibacterial antifungal stuff, do you think
» that all the antibiotics I listed is also antiandrogens? :slight_smile:
»

:slight_smile: Not at all! But that doesn’t mean that they actually work against hair loss, let alone by specifically killing fungus/bacteria.

»
» I dont think that admiting that most of the antibiotic treatments I listed
» are not antiandrogens is a fallacy.
»

Lost you there, I’m afraid. English is not my first language.

» ok point taken, the list is at the begining of this reply of mine. perhaps
» it could persuade you to do some research.
»

Thanks for the info! I’ll research some more, but this far I haven’t found anything to persuade me that there is conclusive evidence supporting your theory. Don’t get me wrong, it is an interesting thought and naturally it is quite possible you are right anyway.

/p

» » debris, your theory is interesting, and you make a lot of good points,
» but
» » one question i have that makes me doubt this is that guys with ht’s
» don’t
» » lose their transplanted hair. ok, maybe sometimes it falls out a bit,
» but
» » that’s when the ht isn’t done properly or something.
» »
» » in general ht hair does not fall out. but the dht is still there
» » floating around in the area. if the dht is still there, the fungi and
» » bacteria should still be there, no? if they are still there then why
» does
» » the hair stay in place? why doesn’t the immune system attack it and
» make
» » the ht hair fall out?
» »
» » i think you’re gonna say “because the ht hair follicles aren’t affected
» by
» » dht”… ok, but they’re still being put in places on your scalp where
» there
» » is dht and are affected by dht… so why doesn’t the transplanted
» hair
» » fall out?
» »
» » also isn’t it true that lots of guys without mpb also can have lots of
» » dht… it’s not really about he dht, it’s about your genes and their
» » REACTION to the dht.
» »
» » you can have a guy who transforms all the testosterone in his skin
» cells
» » into dht, and if he doesn’t have the genes for mpb, he won’t lose any
» » hair…
» »
» » then you can have a guy who transforms only 20% of the testosterone in
» his
» » skin cells into dht, but if he does have the bad genes, he will start
» » losing his hair even though he has much less dht than the first guy.
» »
» » so yes, it is the dht that causes the mpb, BUT you also have to be
» » genetically sensitive to dht. if you’re not genetically predisposed,
» it
» » doesn’t matter if you swim around in a vat of dht all day, you won’t
» lose
» » any hair.
» »
» » also, according to your theory debris, why would fungi and bacteria go
» » after dht in the first place? what is it about dht that they like?
» and
» » why would white blood cells attack any of this? it’s not alien tissue
» » from another person’s body, like a transplant… it’s not a foreign
» » chemical like a skin irritant, is it? it is created in your own
» body…
»
» arent the hairs in the rim of the horseshoe not falling out, since they
» are less susceptible to DHT?
»
» You would think dht is all over the scalp right? and the hairs in the rim
» are either less sensitive and do not respond negatively to
» dht…or…the dht is not distributed in this rim area
»
» but the fact that transplanted hairs for the most part stay put…would
» support the theory that these hairs are less sensitive to DHT

yes. it’s not that there’s no dht in the “rim”… it’s just that the hairs there aren’t sensitive.

» First,
»
» Finasteride is a 5AR1 or 5AR2 inhibitor ?
»
» Debris,
»
» It has been a while you are turning around this deal …considering to try
» something ? Peniciline application on the scalp daily wont lead to any risk
» after all.

yes I am seriously thinking about some topical antibiotics shot. I’ve never tried to prepare my own solution so I really dont know how soluble the penicilin will be and what to use as delivery vehicle. I’m a bit lame in this :slight_smile:

» debris, your theory is interesting, and you make a lot of good points, but
» one question i have that makes me doubt this is that guys with ht’s don’t
» lose their transplanted hair.

This is actualy very simple. If its some kind of infection, then it probably infects your scalp and thats not a problem. its not a problem until it gets deep enough into the follicle to get into the territory controlled by your immune system (white blood cells), which is deeper then the sebaceous gland is.

the idea is that for the microbes to allow them to build collonies deep enough into a follicle, the follicle would have to produce some stuff they feed on in abudance so that the colony would get big enough and deep enough. Once this happens, the immune system spots the foreign bodies, and attacks it all, and follicle is being destroyed as a victim of all of this.

It even explains miniaturisation, miniaturised hair == hair that’s follicle is not big & deep enough.

»
» also isn’t it true that lots of guys without mpb also can have lots of
» dht… it’s not really about he dht, it’s about your genes and their
» REACTION to the dht.

There is something different with the follicles between mpb and non mpb guys. in this theory, the bacteria would be innert if its on the skin, and is pathological only if it gets in the range of your white blood cells (== your immune system). Basically the colony would have to get deep enough down to the root of your follicle first. Sebaceous glands on their own are not deep enough, there are bacterial collonies in our sebaceous glands normally living their lives, thats a known fact. Even parasites can live in your body in sebaceous glands and cysts without being spotted by your immune system. So the idea is that it affects only follicles where the sebum or whatever the DHT product is, provides the bacteria environment friendly enough so it gets greedy and breeds deeper into the follicle.

»
» you can have a guy who transforms all the testosterone in his skin cells
» into dht, and if he doesn’t have the genes for mpb, he won’t lose any
» hair…

he does not have genes for the follicle to produce enough sebum deep enough to allow the bacteria to build up their collonies deep enough

»
» then you can have a guy who transforms only 20% of the testosterone in his
» skin cells into dht, but if he does have the bad genes, he will start
» losing his hair even though he has much less dht than the first guy.
»

afaik the balding guys have more receptors in the balding skin.

» so yes, it is the dht that causes the mpb, BUT you also have to be
» genetically sensitive to dht. if you’re not genetically predisposed, it
» doesn’t matter if you swim around in a vat of dht all day, you won’t lose
» any hair.

I would only repeat myself, dht and sebum is ok, its not ok only if there’s abundance of it and follicle biology allows the stuff to get deep enough. at least that is the point of this hypothesis.

======================

If you think about it guys, this theory explains everything,

donor dominance == explained above

the fact that not all guys are going bald at the same age (follicles are being attacked by loads of DHT since we reach puberty, and yet, some of us go bald immediately, and others do decades later, the explanation would be that we all get contaminated by the fungus or bacteria at different age, and of course that we all have different follicles that provide different environment for the bacteria to live in). Also your genetic make up will surely affect the response of your immune system, so I can imagine some guys are lucky enough that their is fights the infection in a way that does not kill the follicle).

it would also explain why the guys on penicilin grew hair for longer then 6 months after the single or two aplications. basically you will grow hair as long as you dont get infected again or as long as it takes for the leftovers breed into counts that matter again.

it also explains why balding looks like organ rejection, and why immune system is involved. for this to happen there needs to be some sort of antibodies, so that your immune system kills the stff and all around it. bacterial antibodies are simple explanation.

it also explains why most (or all) anti acne treatments help with hair. Acne is known to be caused by bacteria.

Hi P. theres a lot of replys in your message and I wont reply to all of them because to be honest, it is unproven hypothesis, thats what this thread is all about, so arguing would be a bit pointless :slight_smile:

Anyway,

PTO is antimicrobial and antifungal, and there is one study on pubmed that says that it reverses mpb thinning (grows thicker hair) and reduces telogen effluvium associated with mpb comparably the same as ketoconazole. In fact, the average thickness of the hair was even better then ketoconazole. The study I am refering to compares ketoconazole, PTO and zinc shampoos. keto and PTO reduced sebum grew thicker hair, and reduced shedding.

» » » debris, your theory is interesting, and you make a lot of good points,
» » but
» » » one question i have that makes me doubt this is that guys with ht’s
» » don’t
» » » lose their transplanted hair. ok, maybe sometimes it falls out a
» bit,
» » but
» » » that’s when the ht isn’t done properly or something.
» » »
» » » in general ht hair does not fall out. but the dht is still there
» » » floating around in the area. if the dht is still there, the fungi
» and
» » » bacteria should still be there, no? if they are still there then
» why
» » does
» » » the hair stay in place? why doesn’t the immune system attack it and
» » make
» » » the ht hair fall out?
» » »
» » » i think you’re gonna say “because the ht hair follicles aren’t
» affected
» » by
» » » dht”… ok, but they’re still being put in places on your scalp where
» » there
» » » is dht and are affected by dht… so why doesn’t the transplanted
» » hair
» » » fall out?
» » »
» » » also isn’t it true that lots of guys without mpb also can have lots
» of
» » » dht… it’s not really about he dht, it’s about your genes and their
» » » REACTION to the dht.
» » »
» » » you can have a guy who transforms all the testosterone in his skin
» » cells
» » » into dht, and if he doesn’t have the genes for mpb, he won’t lose any
» » » hair…
» » »
» » » then you can have a guy who transforms only 20% of the testosterone
» in
» » his
» » » skin cells into dht, but if he does have the bad genes, he will start
» » » losing his hair even though he has much less dht than the first guy.
» » »
» » » so yes, it is the dht that causes the mpb, BUT you also have to be
» » » genetically sensitive to dht. if you’re not genetically
» predisposed,
» » it
» » » doesn’t matter if you swim around in a vat of dht all day, you won’t
» » lose
» » » any hair.
» » »
» » » also, according to your theory debris, why would fungi and bacteria
» go
» » » after dht in the first place? what is it about dht that they like?
» » and
» » » why would white blood cells attack any of this? it’s not alien
» tissue
» » » from another person’s body, like a transplant… it’s not a foreign
» » » chemical like a skin irritant, is it? it is created in your own
» » body…
» »
» » arent the hairs in the rim of the horseshoe not falling out, since they
» » are less susceptible to DHT?
» »
» » You would think dht is all over the scalp right? and the hairs in the
» rim
» » are either less sensitive and do not respond negatively to
» » dht…or…the dht is not distributed in this rim area
» »
» » but the fact that transplanted hairs for the most part stay
» put…would
» » support the theory that these hairs are less sensitive to DHT
»
» yes. it’s not that there’s no dht in the “rim”… it’s just that the
» hairs there aren’t sensitive.

afaik there’s less of androgen receptors and the receptors are a bit different. In my case, my scalp was always more oily in the balding area then in the back.

» » PTO is antimicrobial and antifungal, and there is one study on pubmed that
» says that it reverses mpb thinning (grows thicker hair) and reduces telogen
» effluvium associated with mpb comparably the same as ketoconazole. In fact,
» the average thickness of the hair was even better then ketoconazole. The
» study I am refering to compares ketoconazole, PTO and zinc shampoos. keto
» and PTO reduced sebum grew thicker hair, and reduced shedding.

Thanks for the info! I’ll look into it!

To be honest, I have many other doubts about the theory. I certainly don’t want to come off as negative, though. If you want to test it, by all means, go ahead! I wish you the best of luck! We need to keep an open mind and keep trying!

Having said that, here are some of my points:

  • Given the amount of research being conducted on MPB, it seems a bit odd that they wouldn’t have found the reason if it was something as big and obvious as a microbe.

  • If it is a microbe, why isn’t MBP contagious? How is it transmitted?

  • And why aren’t there as many 5 year olds with MBP as 40 year olds?

  • If it is caused by bacteria, why isn’t MBP reversed every time we eat antibiotics?

  • Why are only men affected?

Those are just from the top of my head. It is not a new theory. In 1897 a french physicist claimed that a germ was responsible for baldness, resulting in widespread boiling of combs etc. Needless to say, it didn’t help.

Perhaps a certain percentage of MBP is caused by fungus/bacteria, but I doubt it. Alopecia areata is a completely different matter, though.

/p

I also have a hard time believing it could be something that simple and have eluded researchers all these years.

Surely there would have been a bunch of cases of bald guys stumbling onto this. Like guys needing to use a topical anti-microbial on their scalps in some form (like maybe for treating an injury, or a skin rash, etc) and unexpectedly getting their hair back.

» I also have a hard time believing it could be something that simple and
» have eluded researchers all these years.
»
»
» Surely there would have been a bunch of cases of bald guys stumbling onto
» this. Like guys needing to use a topical anti-microbial on their scalps in
» some form (like maybe for treating an injury, or a skin rash, etc) and
» unexpectedly getting their hair back.

I doubt its that easy. Acne is caused by bacteria as well, and yet there are millions depressed teenagers fighting it and loosing their battle every day.

» » » PTO is antimicrobial and antifungal, and there is one study on pubmed
» that
» » says that it reverses mpb thinning (grows thicker hair) and reduces
» telogen
» » effluvium associated with mpb comparably the same as ketoconazole. In
» fact,
» » the average thickness of the hair was even better then ketoconazole.
» The
» » study I am refering to compares ketoconazole, PTO and zinc shampoos.
» keto
» » and PTO reduced sebum grew thicker hair, and reduced shedding.
»
» Thanks for the info! I’ll look into it!
»
» To be honest, I have many other doubts about the theory. I certainly don’t
» want to come off as negative, though. If you want to test it, by all means,
» go ahead! I wish you the best of luck! We need to keep an open mind and
» keep trying!
»
» Having said that, here are some of my points:
»
» * Given the amount of research being conducted on MPB, it seems a bit odd
» that they wouldn’t have found the reason if it was something as big and
» obvious as a microbe.
»
» * If it is a microbe, why isn’t MBP contagious? How is it transmitted?
»
» * And why aren’t there as many 5 year olds with MBP as 40 year olds?
»
» * If it is caused by bacteria, why isn’t MBP reversed every time we eat
» antibiotics?
»

not all antibiotics are the same and not all species are susceptible to all antibiotics. Its a bit weird also that antifungal treatments seem to work, it may be fungus.

» * Why are only men affected?
»

The same reason why children are not affected. The demodex bug for example is very rare in children, and quite common in adults. The only difference is that children follicles produce less sebum and demodex needs sebum.

» Those are just from the top of my head. It is not a new theory. In 1897 a
» french physicist claimed that a germ was responsible for baldness,
» resulting in widespread boiling of combs etc. Needless to say, it didn’t
» help.
»
» Perhaps a certain percentage of MBP is caused by fungus/bacteria, but I
» doubt it. Alopecia areata is a completely different matter, though.
»
» /p

I want to try the topical penicilin or doxacycline. there are now more then one sources that claim that these do grow hair, and the patent also says that you need to apply it only once or twice, to see benefits for months.

I really think there would already have been research done into this SOMEWHERE, at SOME TIME in the last 100 years. Not saying that’s a reason to put the idea aside, but I’m saying we should look into it before we start dumping one anti-_____ial after another onto our heads. Somebody else’s past efforts might do us a favor and rule out the first 10 obvious things to try. Or even rule out whole swaths of drug types for us.

Your comment about acne is interesting too.

There are some long-held suspicions about a link between acne and MPB. (At least among guys like us, if maybe not in the “legitimate” MPB research anyway.) I wonder if this might be beneficial to learn from as well.

The obvious assumption has been that it’s the effects of androgens in the skin that are responsible for any perceived link between the two conditions. But if you’re onto something with this idea, then maybe the link is in the presence of harmful microbes as well as the skin androgens than seem to fuel both processes.

There have been tons of antibacterials & other meds thrown at acne by legit researchers over the decades. It might be worth some reading too.