Mikewalters/baccy/benji......something news with the follica techniques?

Stem cell; cell based hair therapy
21

» There are strong responders. Without eliminating fin, we can’t say what’s
» caused this regrowth. The OP also says he’s been on minox. The
» combination of minox and fin is stronger than either alone.

Absolutely agreed, I use the big 3 and there is no way to attribute a contribution from other factors with any level of confidence.

This is just in effort to provide information to help move things forward if possible.

22

» » There are strong responders. Without eliminating fin, we can’t say
» what’s
» » caused this regrowth. The OP also says he’s been on minox. The
» » combination of minox and fin is stronger than either alone.
»
» Absolutely agreed, I use the big 3 and there is no way to attribute a
» contribution from other factors with any level of confidence.
»
» This is just in effort to provide information to help move things forward
» if possible.

Whatever it is, its working well for you. You’ve had some dramatic regrowth. How long have you been on Nizoral?

23

» Here are some images from March and April of this year.
» The plastic chips are 1 cm long and I’ve been adding these in more
» recent photos to have a size measurement for density counting.

Excellent photos, both in terms of regrowth and quality/clarity!

Also, good idea with the scale indicator. Another possible thing to add is a
color bar to enable adjustment of light and color levels. However, I think
your photos are so clear it’s not really needed. One can easily count the
hairs for an exact hair count instead of depending on the “general cosmetic
impression”.

Your results could very well be due to the finasteride if you are a really
good responder. But the results do warrant some more investigation of the
needling/milk thistle method, since that is the only other thing that sticks
out in your regimen.

May I ask how you take the photos? Any special technique for getting them so
consistent and clear? Also, there is a mark on the scalp on one of the photos
which I’m unable to find in the later photos. Are the photos from the same
area? (I assume they are.)

Thanks for the update!

24

get out of town! This is amazing, can I ask how old are you?

25

» get out of town! This is amazing, can I ask how old are you?

He mentioned in one of his posts that he is 38.

Coffee, how is the regrowth on temples? do you have any pictures of your temples?

26

Oh, could you give some detail about the LiCl/Milk thistle formulation you used for the most part of the treatment? I went through your previous posts and I’m not sure which formulation you finally used (you mention some different versions).

Thanks!

27

wow…I wish more men would see the dual effect of using these two together to get maximum regrowth.

they dont call finas/nizoral/minox the “big 3” for nothing folks. Those three have the most studies behind them at this point, and all have been proven to grow hair.

Its a shame that so many men wait until they have lost signifigant hair before they try the first two of them. They might be able to hang onto what they have for a couple of decade while research progresses.

28

So was this regrowth only observed after your cycles of needling? Maybe the minox/fin combo may not be what’s responsible but it may be increasing yield.

29

My gut reaction -

It’s not totally out of range for Fin + Minox alone, but it’s a hell of a lot better than average. Everyone gets some hairs, but yours really seem to be making the two-stage jump from shiny skin to some small TERMINALS. And the area over which it occurs is too large for it to be a localized fluke.

Next question:

How old or recent was the ORIGINAL LOSS that is being reversed here?

There’s a huge difference between retaking ground that was lost 18 months ago compared to ground that was lost 10 years ago.

30

Coffe,
If i understood correctly,you did not follow the Follica protocol?

31

The solutions I’m currently using are the two described at the bottom of this post:

http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-39923.html

I usually use 30 gauge diabetic lancets. I’ve typically been using about 10-30 wounding channels/ cm^2 per cycle (usually 3000 channels and occasionally as many as 9000 pretty much evenly distributed over 100 cm^2). Sometimes I also pay extra attention to the front hairline while doing this. I’ve cut the protective guard on the lancet and attached it back on so that about 1 mm is exposed, so that it’s not necessary to worry about depth (I’ll measure the exact depth with a micrometer and post when I get a chance). The depth was adjusted so that bleeding barely occurred in the wounding process. I’ve found that with this modification, it’s possible to make about 5 channels per second manually and so 3000 take about 10 minutes.

I usually been appling the EGFR- solution a couple of times per day after the wounding. Sometimes I start the day before. Then I switch to the WNT+ solution for three or four days after that. Lately sometimes I’ve been neglecting the WNT+ part of the cycle. I typically apply the solutions 2 or 3 times per day when I’m using them, about 6-10 drops. I don’t skip my normal minoxidil applications, washings, vitamin/supplement dosages, or anything else during this time period. Sometimes I do one or two 4 to 7 Joule/cm^2 650 nanometer LLLT dosings in this time period as well.

Early on I was taking a couple of milk thistle tabs a day along with the topical EGFR- applications. I think I may start doing that again in the future.

Whether or or to what extent of this is a factor it doesn’t seem possible to conclude at this point.

» Oh, could you give some detail about the LiCl/Milk thistle formulation you
» used for the most part of the treatment? I went through your previous posts
» and I’m not sure which formulation you finally used (you mention some
» different versions).
»
» Thanks!

32

»
» Whatever it is, its working well for you. You’ve had some dramatic
» regrowth. How long have you been on Nizoral?

I’ve done some checking in my records and the earliest record I have of purchasing Nizoral was in September 2007, which was a year earlier than when I started fin. I’ve been using it pretty regularly since I started, although I didn’t notice a lot of regrowth before starting fin and the regular needling sessions.

So I was using minox for many years, then started using ketoconazole 1%, and a year later the fin/needling. The noticeable changes started occurring after the fin/needling.

33

Although I’ve not been focusing to much on the temples for measurement purposes, I’d say there has been new hair growth there, but not extensive.

I do pay attention to that area for the needling/milk thistle/LiCl cycles, but don’t know if that contributes anything.

» Btw, how much regrowth are you seeing on temples? got any pictures of the
» temple areas?

34

I think that I was observing some growth in early, very localized needling and sanding experiments that I did mid year last year. This was what motivated me to go get the Fin prescription and try a bit more serious experiment.

» So was this regrowth only observed after your cycles of needling? Maybe the
» minox/fin combo may not be what’s responsible but it may be increasing
» yield.

35

» »
»
» May I ask how you take the photos? Any special technique for getting them
» so
» consistent and clear? Also, there is a mark on the scalp on one of the
» photos
» which I’m unable to find in the later photos. Are the photos from the
» same
» area? (I assume they are.)
»

The camera that I’ve been using has a macro mode and an internal lighting source for focusing purposes. I use the autofocus and hold the camera by hand.

I didn’t intentionally mark the scalp but have thought about trying to identify a “constellation” :slight_smile: to help be more precise. If we had cameras with several orders of magnitude higher resolution, it might be possible to really start examining what’s going on at a very small scale. It would be interesting to know where the vellus hairs and visible follicles and producing follicles are, and how these patterns change.

36

» get out of town! This is amazing, can I ask how old are you?

38, very nearly 39 at this point. My first noticable hairloss was around 18, in the temples, first noticeable thinning on the vertex by 20 or 21. Thinned out for the next 15 years, started shaving it around 35.

Used minox 2% for a year or so at around 22 or 23, then started again when it went OTC. Switched to 5% when it went OTC.

37

» Next question:
»
» How old or recent was the ORIGINAL LOSS that is being reversed
» here?
»
» There’s a huge difference between retaking ground that was lost 18 months
» ago compared to ground that was lost 10 years ago.

First noticeable hairloss was around 18, in the temples, first noticeable thinning on the vertex by 20 or 21. Thinned out for the next 15 years, started shaving it around 35. Currently at age 38, nearly 39.

38

» » get out of town! This is amazing, can I ask how old are you?
»
» 38, very nearly 39 at this point. My first noticable hairloss was around
» 18, in the temples, first noticeable thinning on the vertex by 20 or 21.
» Thinned out for the next 15 years, started shaving it around 35.
»
» Used minox 2% for a year or so at around 22 or 23, then started again when
» it went OTC. Switched to 5% when it went OTC.

Now that is what I call taking it to the next level. Superb results there.
That was pretty much what I was aiming for but fell sadly short. Congratulations m8.

39

» Its a shame that so many men wait until they have lost signifigant hair
» before they try the first two of them. They might be able to hang onto what
» they have for a couple of decade while research progresses.

Exactly. I got on Minox as soon as I noticed my hair loss (about 19-20), and fin/niz a year or so after (which was as soon as I found out they existed). Nearly a decade later, I still have most of my hair - not as much as I’d like, but I’m certain I’d be a NW 5/6 without them (I’m a NW 1.75).

40

» Now that is what I call taking it to the next level. Superb results
» there.
» That was pretty much what I was aiming for but fell sadly short.
» Congratulations m8.

It was mainly your results and strategies that inspired me to start taking a shot at this.

Don’t know if EDIHN or other wounding-induced follicular rejuvenation may be involved in the results I’ve seen so far. IF so and the results can be accumulated (which is what I was hoping would be possible advantage by cycling through the process every few weeks) maybe we’ll know in a year or two.

The experiments I did early on in one or two cm areas indicated that a handful of hairs were appearing after a month in an area wounded with 300 needle channels over a 1-2 cm^2 area followed by the topical regimen.

I observed this growth localized in the spot where the wounding occurred. I also observed localized growth in a sanding experiment early on.

So don’t believe (at least the results of those experiments) were fully attributable to the fin/minox/keto combination, although it’s not clear whether the majority of the overall later growth may be.