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ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech


#21

» I am attending the seminar and am trying in realtime to spit it back out to
» you…Ken Washenik is starting off with Cell therapy/cell multiplicaton.
»
» Next will be holding solutions and other topics…

Very kind of you for doing this!

But it is a bit worrying to hear him say that “we are still in the beginning stages of this fascinating research.” What does this mean? That a working solution is a decade or more away??


#22

Which is best?

What inhibits growth?

  1. physical trauma/transections/crushing/bad techs
  2. Holding solution plays a small role but it matters. Saline works but not enough.

#23

Hi hairtech,

The one-cell approach is being undertaken by Intercytex. Did Washenik say anything else about the one-cell approach as a viable solution to hair loss? Notice that all the problems Washenik talks about are with the two-cell approach, which is what his Aderans Research Institute is doing.

All the best,
BB

» One cell approach to cell multiplication.
»
» Using dermal cell usage only. Dermal cells are inductive cells. They
» induce cell replication of the hair follicle.
»
» One theory: Inject the dermal cells into the skin and a hair follicle
» grows right?
»
» One experiment was to take several hairs, take the dermal papillas and
» create a hair from the dermal papillas.
»
» This was in 1999. It worked in the mouse.
»
» The two cell approach. Using dermal cells and epidermal cells.
»
» Epidermal cells are hard to culture.


#24

Limmer did a study where he kept follicles in chilled saline. He transplanted the follicles at 1hr, 2hr, 4hr, 8 hrs 1 day and 2 days.

Follicles grew at two days… but a drastic decrease in growth as time goes on.

So this study can show that if a good holding solution is employed then growth rates will be higher.


#25

» Hi hairtech,
»
» The one-cell approach is being undertaken by Intercytex. Did Washenik say
» anything else about the one-cell approach as a viable solution to hair
» loss? Notice that all the problems Washenik talks about are with the
» two-cell approach, which is what his Aderans Research Institute is doing.
»
»
yes he did hold on and I will try to answer questions when the webinar is over…


#26

Basically what Dr. Cooley says is that in large cases that last longer than 4 hours that a better holding solution may need to be employed.

It is over now. This was a pretty good . I emailed Dr. Cooley to send me his power point presentation so I can spit it back out with more information.

Webinar over.

Attendants.

  1. Jim Harris
  2. Brad Wolf
  3. Jerry Cooley
  4. Carlos Puig
  5. Ken Washinik
  6. Sarah Miller

And several others that I did not know.

Dr. Harris organized it. It was his first Webinar.

We will have it again and Dr. Harris and I are going to suggest that we may open this up to the general public to ask whatever questions they want after presentations.


#27

» Very kind of you for doing this!
»
» But it is a bit worrying to hear him say that “we are still in the
» beginning stages of this fascinating research.” What does this mean? That
» a working solution is a decade or more away??

Not too sure what that meant either. But it is safe to assume that it is at least that many years out, based of FDA approval alone.


#28

Hi hairtech,

Thanks for the realtime coverage! But to return to my earlier question: what else did Ken Washenik say about the one-cell approach to hair multiplication? I.e., what problems/benefits of that approach?

Much thanks!
BB

» Basically what Dr. Cooley says is that in large cases that last longer than
» 4 hours that a better holding solution may need to be employed.
»
» It is over now. This was a pretty good . I emailed Dr. Cooley to send me
» his power point presentation so I can spit it back out with more
» information.
»
» Webinar over.
»
» Attendants.
»
» 1. Jim Harris
» 2. Brad Wolf
» 3. Jerry Cooley
» 4. Carlos Puig
» 5. Ken Washinik
» 6. Sarah Miller
»
» And several others that I did not know.
»
» Dr. Harris organized it. It was his first Webinar.
»
» We will have it again and Dr. Harris and I are going to suggest that we
» may open this up to the general public to ask whatever questions they want
» after presentations.


#29

Boston,

I tell you what, I am going to get his lecture and type it in when for you.


#30

» » I am attending the seminar and am trying in realtime to spit it back out
» to
» » you…Ken Washenik is starting off with Cell therapy/cell
» multiplicaton.
» »
» » Next will be holding solutions and other topics…
»
» Very kind of you for doing this!
»
» But it is a bit worrying to hear him say that “we are still in the
» beginning stages of this fascinating research.” What does this mean? That
» a working solution is a decade or more away??

That comment was in regards to wound treatment it seemed no?


#31

Hi hairtech,

That would be very generous of you. I think many who follow HM would be interested in Washenik’s comments as in fact he is a genuine insider. In addition, his comments on the one-cell approach would be useful inasmuch this is the approach being undertaken by Intercytex.

All the best,
BB

» Boston,
»
» I tell you what, I am going to get his lecture and type it in when for
» you.


#32

blahblah, I think you’re right. Ken Washenik has been working on HM for years and years, so I really doubt he’d slam both his academic work and research company (Aderans Research Institute) by saying that everything he’s done up until now amounts to just the “beginning stages” of “fascinating research”. Moreover, Washenik is right to say that the wounding plus protein promoter approach to hair restoration is in its early stages. The Nature article by Cotsarelis et al. was just published a few months ago, after all. Finally, on top of this Washenik has been repeatedly critized for being overly optimistic about HM timelines, so it’d be unlikely he’d say something pessimistic.

» » But it is a bit worrying to hear him say that “we are still in the
» » beginning stages of this fascinating research.” What does this mean?
» That
» » a working solution is a decade or more away??
»
» That comment was in regards to wound treatment it seemed no?


#33

I think that is just wishful thinking. For me it sounds obvious that he is talking about the whole field of hair regeneration, from his point of view at least. This indicates to me that aderans still is struggling with a working procedure. All my hope lies with intercytex.


#34

This place is a real roller coaster ride for my emotions.Sometimes I read an article or post that gives me so much hope that hm will be out soon then I’ll read some thing that takes the wind out of my sails.
I can’t really blame the people who are posting this stuff because I know I am doing this to myself.


#35

No sh*t. I am going to stay away from this forum for a while… too much speculation, etc… it’s bad for the brain…

» This place is a real roller coaster ride for my emotions.Sometimes I read
» an article or post that gives me so much hope that hm will be out soon
» then I’ll read some thing that takes the wind out of my sails.
» I can’t really blame the people who are posting this stuff because I know
» I am doing this to myself.


#36

Whoa now wait… Let me get my hands on the power point presentation first. Some of the stuff he showed, was completely compelling.

I apologize for the “pessimistic” outlook, because what he showed thus far blew my mind in terms of culturing cells via underneath the skin with the 2-cell approach. Intercytex was using the 1-cell approach.

I also was slightly disappointed because what he showed was really awesome in terms of growing hairs by the 2-celled approach, however he kind of left me hanging also.

But again let me review the pwr pt pres. just to make sure I was not leaving anything out. One has to remember though that Dr. Washenik has a finiacial interest in the Alderan Company. I am sure he wants this to thrive. I don’t know if he is not telling all or what.:slight_smile:


#37

» Hi hairtech,
»
» That would be very generous of you. I think many who follow HM would be
» interested in Washenik’s comments as in fact he is a genuine insider. In
» addition, his comments on the one-cell approach would be useful inasmuch
» this is the approach being undertaken by Intercytex.
»
» All the best,
» BB
»
» » Boston,
» »
» » I tell you what, I am going to get his lecture and type it in when for
» » you.

Mention of the “one cell approach,” “two cell approach” etc. is a very abstract way of looking at a very technical subject. In truth, no HM protocol will work that uses only one or two types of cells. What is meant by this terminology is whether an epithelial cell based solution is used, a mesenchymal cell based solution is used, or a mixture of epithelial and mesencymal cells is used. IOW, the main type of cell is the base, but many other cell types need to be present in order to get the follicle to grow.

You need the mesencymal cells and the epithelial cells to communicate, so with the “one cell approach,” ICX injects a mesenchymal based solution into the skin and relies on the existing epithelial cells to complete the package. Gho does the opposite and injects epithelial cells and relies on the existing mesencymal cells. So far, I only know of animal experiments that use both types of cells together due to the problems this technique represents. Although using both kinds in culture keeps the cells extremely viable, other problems result, so it is not being used in humans yet.

But it gets even deeper than this, because technically, if you are stimuating as opposed to creating new follicles, you don’t really have to think about the other cell type. This is because you are targeting the follicle bases in an attempt to get them to uptake healthy cells that allow the follicle to begin signaling properly again. I’m speaking strictly of injecting dermal cells so that the follicles’ migration pathways uptake them into the papilla. Once present, the newly migrated cells can begin to communicate with the surrounding cells and get the follicle to grow normally again. The dermal cells orchestrate the entire process, but get whacked out when DHT loading occurs. So the goal is to simply replace them.

There are lots of ways to go about HM, and each way has its strengths and weaknesses.


#38

» Whoa now wait… Let me get my hands on the power point presentation first.
» Some of the stuff he showed, was completely compelling.
»
» I apologize for the “pessimistic” outlook, because what he showed thus far
» blew my mind in terms of culturing cells via underneath the skin with the
» 2-cell approach. Intercytex was using the 1-cell approach.
»
» I also was slightly disappointed because what he showed was really awesome
» in terms of growing hairs by the 2-celled approach, however he kind of left
» me hanging also.
»
» But again let me review the pwr pt pres. just to make sure I was not
» leaving anything out. One has to remember though that Dr. Washenik has a
» finiacial interest in the Alderan Company. I am sure he wants this to
» thrive. I don’t know if he is not telling all or what.:slight_smile:

It’s my understanding that culturing dermal cells causes them to lose their genetic expression and become other cells. However, co-culturing them with epidermal cells allows the dermal cells to remain viable because of the signals present when both cell types exist.

So the two cell approach could lead to unlimited donor hair. I think the main problem is, as you have pointed out, injecting both types leads to other problems that are perhaps more insurmountable than the single cell approach.

I personally favor a single cell approach using 3-d culturing matrices, as culturing in this manner allows the cells to remain viable for a much longer period.

But then again, my reading on the subject is somewhat dated, so it would be great to see the latest information on this subject.


#39

…if they are implanting cells and they are formulating hairs, but the hairs are trying to shed at 21 days, before the cells are out of the dermis—thus causing an inflammatory reaction while you have a shed hair stuck under the dermis, and killing the newbie hair below it…

…then this is why we had Washenik speculating a while back about growing the hairs “outside” the body and re-implanting. He wante them to be long enough to have the tips outside the dermis so when they shed they could fall out and not interfere with the dermal papilla as it rests, regroups, and starts a new anagen phase.

I wonder if FUE docs, pulled hairs, but cut them off extremely short, below the skin surface right above the papilla (magically not damaging the arrector pilli muscle and root sheath etc—this is just a “suppose”), whether the regular transplant hair would phuck up if it couldnt reach the surface again by day 21 and the skin had grown over the hole in the dermis where the hair comes out (called the infidilum I think it was)? We’d probably have the same thing

ICX had no inflammation with their procedure though in phase one trials and grew hairs (some over 100 per cm). SO what are they doing different?
Paul Kemp must be one smart dude…no wonder they dont want to divulge anything, this is a freakin’ race to history. This info puts a lot of things in perspective as far as Aderans CEO saying “we will know if this is viable by 2009” etc. Now that sounds like to me that they have given Washenik that long to produce a result or they are go with ICX exclusively as far as funding (outsourcing the research to ICX, who is obviously ahead at this point). Wonder what they are doing over there thats different. ?

Any ideas gents. JTR, JB?


#40

» …if they are implanting cells and they are formulating
» hairs, but the hairs are trying to shed at 21 days, before the cells are
» out of the dermis—thus causing an inflammatory reaction while you have a
» shed hair stuck under the dermis, and killing the newbie hair below
» it…
»

The 21 day cycle is from the fact that it is a mouse model. All mice hairs cycle at the same time at 21 days.

The shedding causes an inflammatory response because the hairs are not poking throught the skin. If a needle is used to poke holes in the skin where the hairs are shedding, then the are able to shed and a new cycle starts.

I thought is was very compelling.