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Inter cellular signaling during the follica experiments


#1

I think that ppl who try topicals do a mistake. On one side ppl are aware that you should not even touch the area for couple of days not shampoo it and pretty much leave the wound heal open. Then the same guys do not seem to understand that spitting tons of chemicals to the wound from their amateur coctails may be quite contraproductive as well.

From the little I remember there was one article where the doc clearly said that:

  • the wound needs to be big enough
  • it needs to be allowed to heal on its own

I’d say that oral administration of all the important components, though definately a bit more risky, has better chances of succeeding (I do not think these chances are too high as it may be quite complicated to find the correct dosages and timings, but still I think it should have higher chances than with topicals.

Besides, the only know person on this planet who supposedly had succeeded in this, did take it oraly as well.

What do you think guys?


#2

» I think that ppl who try topicals do a mistake. On one side ppl are aware
» that you should not even touch the area for couple of days not shampoo it
» and pretty much leave the wound heal open. Then the same guys do not seem
» to understand that spitting tons of chemicals to the wound from their
» amateur coctails may be quite contraproductive as well.

The latest patent says that the wound, until it is healed, is “optionally” not contacted with any substance used to prevent infections. I’m not sure how optional this really is, and how important it may or may not be to the end result. It doesn’t really say anything about touching, etc. It also indicates that you can bandage the wound area.

I’m leaning towards showering as I normally do, but I need to research this some more.


#3

» » I think that ppl who try topicals do a mistake. On one side ppl are
» aware
» » that you should not even touch the area for couple of days not shampoo
» it
» » and pretty much leave the wound heal open. Then the same guys do not
» seem
» » to understand that spitting tons of chemicals to the wound from their
» » amateur coctails may be quite contraproductive as well.
»
» The latest patent says that the wound, until it is healed, is “optionally”
» not contacted with any substance used to prevent infections. I’m not sure
» how optional this really is, and how important it may or may not be to the
» end result. It doesn’t really say anything about touching, etc. It also
» indicates that you can bandage the wound area.
»
» I’m leaning towards showering as I normally do, but I need to research
» this some more.

This is the question I was trying to get answered from day 1. I think the EGFR inhibitor needs to be taken orally… that is why I’m so interested in obtaining Gentifib.


#4

Guys,Follica aren’t stupid.They are not going to divulge every little secret.

If this product ever does see the light of day,I think we will see that our ideas were miles of the mark in respect to what Follica were actually doing to regrow hairs.
It doesn’t hurt to try it yourselves but don’t be disillusioned if it doesn’t work.Please be careful & try it on your arm or somewhere discreet in case you harm yourself.Also,keep detailed journals of what you are doing & take plenty of before photos.
Good luck.


#5

Also I’m thinking, if we know that for example more WNT better, and if we know thet less EGRF better. (correct me if I’m wrong here) Should not we try real megadoses of the milk thistle and other natural stuff we want to try? I dunno how harmful that can be.


#6

» I think that ppl who try topicals do a mistake. On one side ppl are aware
» that you should not even touch the area for couple of days not shampoo it
» and pretty much leave the wound heal open. Then the same guys do not seem
» to understand that spitting tons of chemicals to the wound from their
» amateur coctails may be quite contraproductive as well.
»
» From the little I remember there was one article where the doc clearly
» said that:
»
» - the wound needs to be big enough
» - it needs to be allowed to heal on its own

The main point was to not stitch up the wound. The point being that even in lab animals with wounds of this size they are traditionally stitched up and that was why this effect was not noted more frequently. remember these original rats had ALL the skin cut out from an area. Not just an abrasion. It doesnt matter if you apply topicals or let things touch it IMO. The mice had FGF EGFR inhibitors and so forth injected into the wound. They were not taking the drug orally. I think people make way too much out of this. Unless you can think of some way that letting water or ethanol or whatever come in contact with the wounded/abraded area is going to downregulate wnt expression then I think its a red herring.
hh

» I’d say that oral administration of all the important components, though
» definately a bit more risky, has better chances of succeeding (I do not
» think these chances are too high as it may be quite complicated to find the
» correct dosages and timings, but still I think it should have higher
» chances than with topicals.
»
» Besides, the only know person on this planet who supposedly had succeeded
» in this, did take it oraly as well.
»
» What do you think guys?


#7

Personally, I applied a topical on Day 3 post wounding but did not use my topical involving alcohol (minox) I plan to introduce minox at about Day 12. Today is Day 8. I haven’t washed my scalp for the last 8 days (bear in mind, I’m totally bald…or rather, not quite now) and if the results warrant it, I’ll try to post pics after about 30 days. That’s IF the results warrant it. I seem to have a lot of terminal hair come up but not enough to be cosmetically acceptable ie: from a distance. However, I can see smaller, dark hairs just pushing out of the scalp so hopefully this progress will continue.
As for vellus hair, lots of it but we’ve all seen that before from taking just minox in the past.
My scabs are in the process of falling off, revealing the fresh skin beneath and there are isolated terminal hairs here and there. The heaviest concentration of hair seems to be across the top of the scalp (think mohawk) and I think that this is attributable to the fact that I wore one of those ‘look real for a day’ hair systems throughout the nineties. Where the hairpiece was glued on (just above my NW7 hair border) the hair seems to have the most difficulty growing. But I’m encouraged that there ARE new hairs there; terminal as well as vellus.
Like I say, I’ll post pics if I wind up with light covering of hair that is visible at a distance. Until then, take consolation in the fact that this thing works. I’m getting hair where I haven’t had it for 20 years. The question is whether I can get decent coverage. By the way, I must mention that my expectations are not as high as most of yours are. I’ll be happy with a light density, proper male hairline and a buzzcut. From what I hear, most of you guys want a ‘Planet of the Apes’ hairline you had when you were 9 years old. Well, you may get or may not get it. As for me, I’ll take what I can.
Good luck guys. We’ll crack this thing yet!


#8

sounds good Baccy. Lets hope the terminal looking hair grows long and steady. If it would grow really terminal and long hair that would seem to be dht resistant (or at least able to grow as long as you are on finasteride or dutasteride) then it would be just about density and I’m sure that that could be perfected.


#9

» Personally, I applied a topical on Day 3 post wounding but did not use my
» topical involving alcohol (minox) I plan to introduce minox at about Day
» 12.

Whats the “topical” you appleid on day 3 ?is it an EGFR inhibitor ?
What wounding technique did you use ? give a detailed description please (depth,width, duration, areas of wounding… ).
Did you use any solution that mimics WNT ?

Today is Day 8. I haven’t washed my scalp for the last 8 days (bear in
» mind, I’m totally bald…or rather, not quite now) and if the results
» warrant it, I’ll try to post pics after about 30 days. That’s IF the
» results warrant it. I seem to have a lot of terminal hair come up but not
» enough to be cosmetically acceptable ie: from a distance. However, I can
» see smaller, dark hairs just pushing out of the scalp so hopefully this
» progress will continue.
» As for vellus hair, lots of it but we’ve all seen that before from taking
» just minox in the past.
» My scabs are in the process of falling off, revealing the fresh skin
» beneath and there are isolated terminal hairs here and there. The heaviest
» concentration of hair seems to be across the top of the scalp (think
» mohawk) and I think that this is attributable to the fact that I wore one
» of those ‘look real for a day’ hair systems throughout the nineties. Where
» the hairpiece was glued on (just above my NW7 hair border) the hair seems
» to have the most difficulty growing. But I’m encouraged that there ARE new
» hairs there; terminal as well as vellus.
» Like I say, I’ll post pics if I wind up with light covering of hair that
» is visible at a distance. Until then, take consolation in the fact that
» this thing works. I’m getting hair where I haven’t had it for 20 years. The
» question is whether I can get decent coverage. By the way, I must mention
» that my expectations are not as high as most of yours are. I’ll be happy
» with a light density, proper male hairline and a buzzcut. From what I hear,
» most of you guys want a ‘Planet of the Apes’ hairline you had when you were
» 9 years old. Well, you may get or may not get it. As for me, I’ll take what
» I can.

That’s an emotional point. At the end of the day everybod here will get the best possible result of Follica…You dont reject having a "Planet of the Apes " on your head, dont you ?

» Good luck guys. We’ll crack this thing yet!

You’ve just made a contribution to the cracking effort. By the way I think that you need to open a new thread.


#10

»
» Whats the “topical” you appleid on day 3 ?is it an EGFR inhibitor ?
» What wounding technique did you use ? give a detailed description please
» (depth,width, duration, areas of wounding… ).
» Did you use any solution that mimics WNT ?

Right. I didn’t really use any measures as such for amount of topical ingredients. Basically what I used starting on Day 3 was quercetin (before I found out that it inhibits wnt signaling AS WELL AS EGF) a couple of 100mg tabs. A teaspoon of caffeine. About 3 or 4 120mg capsules of lithium orotate for the wnt signaling. I mixed these in about one teaspoon of DMSO and added this to a 50ml bottle of emu oil. After I discovered a couple of days later that Quercetin ALSO inhibits wnt signaling, I have now swapped the Quercetin for a couple of Milk Thistle tabs (silymarin in milk thistle is a potent EGF inhibitor). I am applying this topical at least once in the morning and once at night. If I can, I apply it during the day too. I ALSO take one 120mg capsule of Lithium Orotate orally with two tabs of milk thistle. I do that once in the morning and once at night. For the last day or so, I have added a capsule of beta sitosterol orally.
These measures are by mo means indicative of any formulative knowledge I possess; indeed I am flying blind. But I believe SOMETHING is happening. Whether this is going to be just a more potent ‘minoxidil’ and the results stall after a period of time, I don’t know. Speaking of minox, I plan on introducing that into the topical at about Day 12. In fact I will use a bottle of minoxidil as the base rather than the emu oil.
Now then. Method of abrasion. You’re not gonna like this. I sanded my ENTIRE scalp until it was raw. Then, in a masochistic moment, I applied 30% glycolic acid over the raw skin. I almost passed out with the pain. I left this on for about a minute and a half. Like I say, I didn’t start with the topical until Day 3.


#11

yuck baccy :slight_smile: did you take pics of that wounding? :slight_smile:

BTW you deserve it did grew something. So far it looks like you are really trying both EGF + WNT and according to your description you are trying the tough way.

Is it known if milk thistle does not affect WNT? I may have it still somewhere if I have not thrown it away yet.

Hows it healing btw? Do you think it will heal the same as before?


#12

You are taking one for the team! :slight_smile: It will be interesting to follow your progress (or lack of).
You say that you see growth already but that it only has passed 8 days. I think it is way to early for any new follicles to form in that period of time, in the patent they mention new hair follicle formation around 14 days and new visible growth at 25 days. In mice that is.
I understand how deeply you want this to work but also try to stay as objective as you can. Good luck!


#13

» You are taking one for the team! :slight_smile: It will be interesting to follow your
» progress (or lack of).
» You say that you see growth already but that it only has passed 8 days. I
» think it is way to early for any new follicles to form in that period of
» time, in the patent they mention new hair follicle formation around 14 days
» and new visible growth at 25 days. In mice that is.
» I understand how deeply you want this to work but also try to stay as
» objective as you can. Good luck!

The growth I’m seeing is probably rejuvenated miniaturised follicles. That’s the way I see it. Hopefully, there are more pleasant surprises to come.


#14

» Also I’m thinking, if we know that for example more WNT better, and if we
» know thet less EGRF better. (correct me if I’m wrong here) Should not we
» try real megadoses of the milk thistle and other natural stuff we want to
» try? I dunno how harmful that can be.

Whoa, hold on–bad idea. Taking very low doses of lithium is helpful for disorders such as bipolar but higher doses can easily kill you or cause serious problems. Is that due to increasing Wnt signaling throughout the body? Probably not specifically but it could be part of it. EGF signaling too is extremely vital for many cell functions and using an EGFR inhibitor might be necessary for fighting cancer but can be extremely bad for your body otherwise.

Topical drugs have not had the greatest effect so far except for minoxidil, which is still the only FDA approved topical for hair loss. However, topical drugs have been shown to get into follicles much better than their ability to penetrate through the skin so that is promising at least.


#15

I dont believe he can make a mistake about a 20 years long bald zones !


#16

» »
» » Whats the “topical” you appleid on day 3 ?is it an EGFR inhibitor ?
» » What wounding technique did you use ? give a detailed description
» please
» » (depth,width, duration, areas of wounding… ).
» » Did you use any solution that mimics WNT ?
»
» Right. I didn’t really use any measures as such for amount of topical
» ingredients. Basically what I used starting on Day 3 was quercetin (before
» I found out that it inhibits wnt signaling AS WELL AS EGF) a couple of
» 100mg tabs. A teaspoon of caffeine. About 3 or 4 120mg capsules of lithium
» orotate for the wnt signaling. I mixed these in about one teaspoon of DMSO
» and added this to a 50ml bottle of emu oil. After I discovered a couple of
» days later that Quercetin ALSO inhibits wnt signaling,

I dont think that it actually does. At least not from the abstract I have seen.

» I have now swapped
» the Quercetin for a couple of Milk Thistle tabs (silymarin in milk thistle
» is a potent EGF inhibitor). I am applying this topical at least once in the
» morning and once at night. If I can, I apply it during the day too. I ALSO
» take one 120mg capsule of Lithium Orotate orally with two tabs of milk
» thistle. I do that once in the morning and once at night. For the last day
» or so, I have added a capsule of beta sitosterol orally.

I think the most defnitive thing from your topical is the fact that you had lithium in dmso. You would definitely get penetration with that carrier.

» These measures are by mo means indicative of any formulative knowledge I
» possess; indeed I am flying blind. But I believe SOMETHING is happening.
» Whether this is going to be just a more potent ‘minoxidil’ and the results
» stall after a period of time, I don’t know. Speaking of minox, I plan on
» introducing that into the topical at about Day 12. In fact I will use a
» bottle of minoxidil as the base rather than the emu oil.

I would have added minox with the other stuff. It helps the process.

» Now then. Method of abrasion. You’re not gonna like this. I sanded my
» ENTIRE scalp until it was raw. Then, in a masochistic moment, I applied 30%
» glycolic acid over the raw skin. I almost passed out with the pain. I left
» this on for about a minute and a half. Like I say, I didn’t start with the
» topical until Day 3.

This might be another factor in your reults if they seem to be better than other peoples. Seems you went in a lot harder than pretty much everyone else on the wounding end of things. Hope the good news keeps coming.
hh


#17

As benji said “Hair germs were detected in human skin by day 7 post-wounding” in Follica experimentations. Baccy talked about new terminal hair growth in the 8th day post-wounding…Thats very encouraging !

Z79 after all these discussions where do you thing you went wrong ?


#18

»
» I would have added minox with the other stuff. It helps the process.
»

I didn’t add minox during epithelization because of the alcohol content and the antiseptic nature of the alcohol.


#19

Just a summary of ‘results’ so far. Quite a lot of terminal hair (dark but not particularly large in diameter) at front middle. Isolated incidents of small diameter terminal hair across top of scalp from front middle back middle. Isolated incidents of small diameter terminal hair on sides above NW7 border hairline. There is a marked absence of hairs down these sides which I attribute to the silly ‘looks real for a day’ rugs I wore in the nineties. The glue attachment has probably phucked up growth prospects there.
Quite a lot of vellus hair covering mainly across top of scalp. This vellus is very visible in certain light, but ultimately, cosmetically useless.
Interestingly, I have isolated terminal hairs poking out from the area of my teenage hairline. This area has been bald for 20 years.
I think that so far, these are recovering follicles. I hope to see new follicles producing hair in the next 2 weeks.


#20

» As benji said “Hair germs were detected in human skin by day 7
» post-wounding” in Follica experimentations. Baccy talked about new terminal
» hair growth in the 8th day post-wounding…Thats very encouraging !
»
» Z79 after all these discussions where do you thing you went wrong ?

If he really is seeing new hair growth already it is absolutely amazing. Then he should have a significant increase after 8 weeks.

Many things could have gone wrong but my guess is that I applied the EGFR inhibitor way too late, after 12 days. Not sure that disolving leflunomide in minox is the best way to go either. The elidel cream (immunosuppresant) could have spoiled it for me too. But my experiment has not given me any side effects at all, it just did not work, so people should not be so scared of trying.

If I choose to do another experiment I will only use the EGFR inhibitor and add it a lot sooner, both oral and topical. I am thinking of maybe taking 100 mg Arava day 4-6 post wounding and using my minox/leflunomide topical day 7-14.

But it will be interesting to follow Baccy the next couple of weeks!