I’ve been busy but of course there’s been a lot of exciting news recently. However, a friend of a friend who is connected to Follica has told me that he’s convinced they will have a cure in 1-2 years (and yes the new hairs will be created de novo, resistant to DHT). I realize we’ve all had this “insider” crap before – from TheGame and others – so I want to stress that I’m not sure who this friend of a friend is, nor do I know how much he knows, and I haven’t heard anything new except what we already have on this HM forum. Regardless, I thought I’d pass this tidbit along. Let’s hope for a good year on the baldness front.
One more thing: I should add that I’ve been doing this wounding plus lithium chloride/EGCG routine for a while and yes, I have some new hair growth. And the hairs are dark, oddly enough. So aside from “insider” info I think there’s something to the WNT suppression/activation plus wounding method…
The hair is likely to be DHT sensitive and the insider is a bragger in my opinion. I mean history says that the chances that this time, the insider is not some crazy psycho who loves making up things out of a thin air, are next to zero.
Anyway, is there anyone who could explain why would the new hair (that would be grown in using the same mechanism as the old hair that felt out because it was dht sensitive), why would the new one should be any different? I mean really, give me one reason for it other then we all wish it was resistant.
btw that wounding / chloride, how many new hair do you have? And is it in completely bald area?
» Hi all,
»
» I’ve been busy but of course there’s been a lot of exciting news recently.
» However, a friend of a friend who is connected to Follica has told me that
» he’s convinced they will have a cure in 1-2 years (and yes the new hairs
» will be created de novo, resistant to DHT). I realize we’ve all had this
» “insider” crap before – from TheGame and others – so I want to stress
» that I’m not sure who this friend of a friend is, nor do I know how much
» he knows, and I haven’t heard anything new except what we already have on
» this HM forum. Regardless, I thought I’d pass this tidbit along. Let’s
» hope for a good year on the baldness front.
»
» One more thing: I should add that I’ve been doing this wounding plus
» lithium chloride/EGCG routine for a while and yes, I have some new hair
» growth. And the hairs are dark, oddly enough. So aside from “insider” info
» I think there’s something to the WNT suppression/activation plus wounding
» method…
»
» All the best,
» BB
Heh and another thing. Calling something a cure that even inventors refer to as “treatment”, and making up random time lines. That only confirms how much this is a pipe dream and how much it is a reality.
All right it is possible, that in 2 years you will have an option, go for HT or go for something based on WNT. But because of lack of evidence other than “friend of my friend says” I doubt it will be a cure that would give anyone nw1 hair, and I seriously doubt that the new hair will be DHT resistant.
debris wrote
Anyway, is there anyone who could explain why would the new hair (that would be grown in using the same mechanism as the old hair that felt out because it was dht sensitive), why would the new one should be any different? I mean really, give me one reason for it other then we all wish it was resistant
I’ll give you two. If you check the article at xconomy.com, you’ll notice a comment made by David Steinberg - he’s Follica’s Principal, and he’s one of the seventeen key members listed on the site’s team bio. He wrote:
I am with the company. While we have not tested this in humans yet we fully expect that hair will persist. There are multiple reasons for this. First of all, consider hair transplants - while they have other flaws, the hair does indeed persist despite the presence of circulating DHT. In a distinct, but similar way, the Follica treatment changes the microenvironment of the follicles. Further, a single hair cycle lasts several years, and at the very least the new hair should last one full cycle (because of the underlying physiology of the condition). Also, circulating levels of DHT actually drop over a man’s life. We have seen numerous clinical reports of patients showing sustained hair cycling when exposed to conditions similar to the treatment Follica is pursuing (in a carefully directed and controlled way).
In short he says well we believe it will be DHT resistant, because HT is (well, HT is because it is based on follicles that have different genetic make up, because they came from different cells then those that are on top of your head).
Then he admits that it is possible it will not be, and says all right but still you will have some hair and maybe few weeks before you start to go rapidly bald once again.
And then he says that it might work only for old guys. So once I’m 60 I can have some hair. Thanx doc, but I think I’ll have different issues then.
I think that they just want to make sure that investors give them the damn money. And in fact, this is good. without it we won’t have anything nor this just another flawed treatment.
It might be possible to exploit this signaling and bring some strength and consistency to ICX’s procedure which imho has greater chances to deliver true dht resistant hair that lasts a life time.
There are numerous studies that say that the balding follicle exhibits weakness of dermal papilla cells, so replenishing these cells with cells based on DP’s comming from the safe area could do the trick (unless the baling DP cells go suicidal not because of their genetics, but because of genetics of some evil other cells they interact with).
» Hi all,
»
» I’ve been busy but of course there’s been a lot of exciting news recently.
» However, a friend of a friend who is connected to Follica has told me that
» he’s convinced they will have a cure in 1-2 years (and yes the new hairs
» will be created de novo, resistant to DHT). I realize we’ve all had this
» “insider” crap before – from TheGame and others – so I want to stress
» that I’m not sure who this friend of a friend is, nor do I know how much
» he knows, and I haven’t heard anything new except what we already have on
» this HM forum. Regardless, I thought I’d pass this tidbit along. Let’s
» hope for a good year on the baldness front.
»
» One more thing: I should add that I’ve been doing this wounding plus
» lithium chloride/EGCG routine for a while and yes, I have some new hair
» growth. And the hairs are dark, oddly enough. So aside from “insider” info
» I think there’s something to the WNT suppression/activation plus wounding
» method…
»
» All the best,
» BB
is this follica cure a procedure like HM or completely different? is it foing to be by injections or a topical?
I think this is probably unknown, since the studies have not been done to determine this.
Finasteride and dutasteride would presumably be useful if they are DHT sensitive (although it would be bad form to require anyone who gets this treatment to take oral 5AR inibitors.)
» I’ve been busy but of course there’s been a lot of exciting news recently.
The biggest question I have with this treatment (wounding + subsequent pharmalogical manipulaton) is how well it would treat diffuse thinning. Bald spots are easy. But what if there is existing hair in the way? How do you precisely direct the treatment to balding follicles in a thinning area without affecting existing terminal follicles?
» » I’ve been busy but of course there’s been a lot of exciting news
» recently.
»
» The biggest question I have with this treatment (wounding + subsequent
» pharmalogical manipulaton) is how well it would treat diffuse thinning.
» Bald spots are easy. But what if there is existing hair in the way? How do
» you precisely direct the treatment to balding follicles in a thinning
» area without affecting existing terminal follicles?
The treatment, based on the experimental section of the patent is this:
1)They dermabrate the skin after depilation (they actually used NAIR).
They inhibit wnt expression with dkk-1 for nine days
They then apply wnt protiens or a promoter thereof after that.
Thats it.
The tested it on human skin grafted onto a immuno deficient mouse and had new de noveau hair in 30 days, and then again at day 50–thus proving it was human hair and not mouse hair by some fluke. Its only pigmented if they block wnt-expression for the first nine days during the re-epilithializatoin period in the skin, it will be white if they dont do this.
For the diffuse thinner, they’d be making new hairs between the old ones I would suppose.
THe prostaglandin D2 inhibitor patent (ECGC inhibits prostaglandin D2), is a different patent altogether, but it is interesting that prostaglandin D2 is 4.4 times more exhibited in balding scalp over hairy scalp, and that they could inhibit a new growth phase in mouse fur for 50 days with continual application of prostaglandin D2, and the sebacous hypertropy and thin hair on mice that have alot of it. I doubt that will regrow hair, but it might keep it from thinning on someone who has hair.
We will see what the tests can do in humans, and not human skin on a mouseback very shortly. If they can grow hair on some guys…I’ll be very happy as that will be a second procedure (ICX)to have done so. Surely one of them will work. Im ready for baldness to be whipped once and for all for humanity:-)
» Finasteride and dutasteride would presumably be useful if they are DHT
» sensitive (although it would be bad form to require anyone who gets this
» treatment to take oral 5AR inibitors.)
That’s what I’m thinking. If it does indeed work but produces non-persistent results, couldn’t one take a course of 5ARs immediately following and expect to retain and large amount of that hair for a significant period? If you could develop an acceptable amount of hair and retain it for 3-5 years, it may buy you the time necessary for a true, full treatment down the line. Even temporary results are worth the money if they can allow a patient to bridge the time between the present and the future of alopecia treatments.
» » THEY HAVE NOT YET TESTED IN HUMANS
»
» I smell a rat
The people behind this are associated with a very presitgious university that is very concerned with its reputation. Plus, they have serious backing from a major corporation.
It may not work, but if it doesn’t, it won’t be because the science was bad or falsified.
There’s a big difference between a Chinese quack and the University of Pennsylvania/P&G.
We need some sort of understanding in the HM research world that ALL mentioning of timelines MUST disclose whether this is when the product would be ON THE MARKET, or whether the timeframe in question is how long before they begin a 3-stage clinical trials process.
That little detail is the difference between 2 years or 12.
» » » THEY HAVE NOT YET TESTED IN HUMANS
» »
» » I smell a rat
»
» The people behind this are associated with a very presitgious university
» that is very concerned with its reputation. Plus, they have serious
» backing from a major corporation.
»
» It may not work, but if it doesn’t, it won’t be because the science was
» bad or falsified.
»
» There’s a big difference between a Chinese quack and the University of
» Pennsylvania/P&G.
For the record:
Gho’s HM research was performed in collaboration with a prestigious University in Holland. His principle research consultant is one of the most published and well-respected dermatologists in the world. Their preliminary HM study is published in the most prestigious medical journal in the world.
Fact: Gho claimed to be stimulating dormant follicles via follicular stem cell injections. Many people called him a liar because there were no public studies that even hinted this might be possible. Years later McElwee performed a ground-breaking study proving Gho’s claims were accurate.
Fact: Gho claimed that if you leave the lower third of a follicle in the skin undisturbed, it will result in regrowth up to 80% of the time. Many people claimed him to be a liar because studies at the time showed that planting the lower third back in the skin resulted in poor regeneration. Independent researchers later tested leaving lower third follicles in the skin and proved Gho’s claim to be accurate.
Fact: Gho claimed that HM stimulation worked well in some patients but that other patients got a very poor response and that it was extremely difficult to figure out why. People called him a liar claiming that he was making an excuse to cover up not really having done any HM research. Recently ICX stated that patients in their phase II trials had inconsistent regrowth results varying between 13 and 105%. This is almost exactly on par with Gho’s claim of having obtained between 20 and 80% consistency in his initial phase II research.
Gho was unable to complete his protocol, but people really need to get over this and try to accept reality. ICX is at almost the exact stage of development that Gho was at when he reached a plateau in his research. Much like Gho, ICX has continued to miss timelines and has failed to meet milestones. But this is par for the course in biotech startup ventures. If people believe there will be a difference between the time it took Gho to perform his HM research and Follica, ICX, ARI, PhoenixBio, etc to perform their research, then they are purely deluded about the way the biotech world works.
I truly hope people open up there eyes and realize that if Gho taught us anything it is that we must remain hopeful but patient.
ICX is in phase 2, testing small groups of men (less than 10), trying to find out which mix of culturing cells, injections of cells (depths, numbers, mixes), best grow hair or rejuvinate hair (or both).
Follica, fresh off its “victory” of being able to grow human hair on human skin grafted onto the back of a mouse, will be heading into human trials trying to grow hair also. They plan to use 15-20 men in their first big test. I dont know if its already underway, or will be taking place shortly or not.
What we DO HAVE TO BE EXCITED ABOUT is this: The mathematical chances that both of these companies “cant do it” and have to quit are half of what merely one of them face. If Follica’s first test with men is successful, it would seem that hair replacement from one company the other would seemingly be only a matter of time. Aderans claims it has “grown human hair on human skin” via Washenik, so Follica, ICX, Aderans are three companies in this hemisphere that can make the claim they have grown de noveau human hair on human skin and that in itself is exciting. Gho was one overworked man trying to solve a really tough complicated puzzle, but these are companies backed by shareholding-money, and two of them are backed by much larger corporations. Follica, owned ultimately by Proctor and Gamble, should have more cash than any of them. Three players, all with massive dollar signs in their eyes, working on our behalf. The math is on our side in this that one of them will emerge with a pretty good product, and I dont think it will be ten years either.
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