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ICX - my thoughts


#1

Some speculation…

Intercytex’s HM procedure will be an adjunctive treatment only. In other words, it won’t be a standalone procedure. You will go get a normal hair transplant, and as a “bonus”, the clinic will thicken up some areas (like the crown) with HM.

I believe this is why Intercytex signed the agreement with Bosley to distribute their product. I also believe Intercytex long ago realized that their HM protocol would not be standalone.

This makes sense if you think about it. Intercytex is a long way from perfecting this technology. By that I mean, reliable direction, good yield/density, caliber of hair (terminal vs. vellus), color, and consistent results between patients. They are not even sure exactly what the treatment does – regenerate existing follicles or create new ones (I’ve heard one or the other claimed, or both, all of which appear to be speculation at this point.) In other words, their treatment is the shotgun approach: shoot up the crown area with a bunch of injections, and hope some stick.

Thoughts?


#2

» Some speculation…
»
» Intercytex’s HM procedure will be an adjunctive treatment only. In other
» words, it won’t be a standalone procedure. You will go get a normal hair
» transplant, and as a “bonus”, the clinic will thicken up some areas (like
» the crown) with HM.
»
» I believe this is why Intercytex signed the agreement with Bosley to
» distribute their product. I also believe Intercytex long ago realized that
» their HM protocol would not be standalone.
»
» This makes sense if you think about it. Intercytex is a long way from
» perfecting this technology. By that I mean, reliable direction, good
» yield/density, caliber of hair (terminal vs. vellus), color, and
» consistent results between patients. They are not even sure exactly what
» the treatment does – regenerate existing follicles or create new ones
» (I’ve heard one or the other claimed, or both, all of which appear to be
» speculation at this point.) In other words, their treatment is the shotgun
» approach: shoot up the crown area with a bunch of injections, and hope some
» stick.
»
» Thoughts?

Everything that you have wrote is pure speculation,not some,but all,except for the bit about the signed agreement with Bosley’s,which you got totally wrong.The agreement is for an option of getting ICX-TRC,but not exclusively - FACT!

You might just end up being correct,and it won’t be a standalone procedure,but at this point no one really knows.If you wait until the 18th of March,hopefully we’ll all get a better picture.

I think we should all try and get on with our lifes,shave our heads,have a hair transplant if need be or what ever - I know the younger you are the harder it must be.Especially if we don’t get any good news next month.

ROLL ON HM!


#3

» Some speculation…
»
» Intercytex’s HM procedure will be an adjunctive treatment only. In other
» words, it won’t be a standalone procedure. You will go get a normal hair
» transplant, and as a “bonus”, the clinic will thicken up some areas (like
» the crown) with HM.
»
» I believe this is why Intercytex signed the agreement with Bosley to
» distribute their product. I also believe Intercytex long ago realized that
» their HM protocol would not be standalone.
»
» This makes sense if you think about it. Intercytex is a long way from
» perfecting this technology. By that I mean, reliable direction, good
» yield/density, caliber of hair (terminal vs. vellus), color, and
» consistent results between patients. They are not even sure exactly what
» the treatment does – regenerate existing follicles or create new ones
» (I’ve heard one or the other claimed, or both, all of which appear to be
» speculation at this point.) In other words, their treatment is the shotgun
» approach: shoot up the crown area with a bunch of injections, and hope some
» stick.
»
» Thoughts?

I agree. In fact, I’ll go a step further a say that ALL of the promising treatments in development will be adjunct protocols. What we are seeing is the second generation of true treatment options. The first began with Rogain, Propecia and Nizeral, and for most, they have been minimally affective. The second generation will include Follica, ITX, and (hopefully) Neosh. These next gen treatments will not be the magic bullent, but if used in conjunction (or, in the case of Follica and ITX, one or the other), I think it will allow some to regain a very good head of hair after a HT. Unfortunately, these treatments will still be very expensive and convoluted, but at least their will be a real option for those that want a true, full head of hair. It will buy us another “5 years” until the 3rd gen products come out (which should include the “magic bullet” we’re all waiting for: a simple, cheap and affective treatment).


#4

I have no doubts that it will be offered as an add-on to a HT. However, if they don’t also offer it as standalone, it will not be that great for their business. I am looking for something where somebody doesn’t have to take a scalpel to my head. And I think many others are as well. If I wanted a HT, I would have gotten one already.

I would be willing to take just some thickening. I don’t have to have to have all my hair back out of the gate (although that would be nice). But if they say they have to do a HT first, I’m out.


#5

» I have no doubts that it will be offered as an add-on to a HT. However, if
» they don’t also offer it as standalone, it will not be that great for their
» business. I am looking for something where somebody doesn’t have to take a
» scalpel to my head. And I think many others are as well. If I wanted a
» HT, I would have gotten one already.
»
» I would be willing to take just some thickening. I don’t have to have to
» have all my hair back out of the gate (although that would be nice). But
» if they say they have to do a HT first, I’m out.

I agree - even if the product isn’t perminent or complete (5000+ hairs), it would still be a good product. If they can get 1500+ hairs to grow, well that would be useful to a lot of folks. And if the hairs don’t last, you can come back for a top-off. The market has shown a willingness to purchase temporarily relief (rogain and propecia both require continued use).


#6

» Everything that you have wrote is pure speculation,

As I noted before I wrote anything. BTW, I’ve been reading this forum for years (longer than most here), and pure speculation makes up 90% of the content on this board.

» for the bit about the signed agreement with Bosley’s,which you got totally
» wrong.The agreement is for an option of getting ICX-TRC,but not
» exclusively - FACT!

Where did I say anything about exclusivity? I said they had an agreement whereby Bosley would distribute their product. This is noteworthy because Bosley runs a large chain of hair transplant clinics and is developing a competing product. I don’t know the exact details of their contract (no one here does), so I don’t know what clauses, if any, are in place regarding distribution rights.


#7

I just groan when people complain about having to get a traditional HT along with ICX’s work.

Hair characteristics?

That’s the difference between true cloning versus cell therapy. True cloning is trying to fabricate a chunk of the body from scratch. Cell therapy as ICX is doing is just manipulating the “throttle” controls for your hair growth.

I suspect the hairs will only vary in terms of the degree of MPB that ICX is reversing on each hair & session. Thicker/longer/darker, or thinner/shorter/lighter. The actual shade of color probably won’t vary other than that.

And I suspect the curl/wave probably won’t vary from the rest of your head at all. (I think it only varies that small degree in HTs because of the graft/follicle injury that is occurring during transplantation.)

Hairlines?

So which one is the “real” hairline that ICX is supposed to be recreating?

Is it the NW#0 you had when you were 9 years old?
The NW#1 you had as a teenager?
The NW#2 you had when you were 24 but not actually thinning & balding yet?

Maybe something in between all those points, at some particular magical year when you were most happy with it?

And what about people who want a non-original hairline on their faces with ICX’s work?

People expect too much from such a infant technology.

We don’t have to spend the rest of our lives bald!

We can get restoration work done in our 20s & 30s! We can combine it with some FUE work and it will probably look almost as good as if we never lost it! We don’t have to go through all the pain of HTs just to remain stuck with severe strip-scars, receeded NW#3 hairlines, and balding crowns anymore!

What the hell else to people want from the first generation of HM?

:wink:


#8

» » Everything that you have wrote is pure speculation,
»
» As I noted before I wrote anything. BTW, I’ve been reading this forum for
» years (longer than most here), and pure speculation makes up 90% of the
» content on this board.
»
» » for the bit about the signed agreement with Bosley’s,which you got
» totally
» » wrong.The agreement is for an option of getting ICX-TRC,but not
» » exclusively - FACT!
»
» Where did I say anything about exclusivity? I said they had an agreement
» whereby Bosley would distribute their product. This is noteworthy because
» Bosley runs a large chain of hair transplant clinics and is developing a
» competing product. I don’t know the exact details of their contract (no
» one here does), so I don’t know what clauses, if any, are in place
» regarding distribution rights.

Intercytex announces TrichoCyte distribution option with Bosley
6th May 2004

Manchester, May 6th, 2004: Intercytex today announced it has entered into an agreement with Bosley Medical providing them with an option to negotiate distribution of its hair induction product - TrichoCyte. Bosley currently have 75 hair transplant clinics and consultation centres throughout the US, and have the potential to distribute TrichoCyte not only within their established clinics, but also to the hair transplant community in general.

See link
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/pr2004/2004-05-06/


#9

» We don’t have to spend the rest of our lives bald!
»
» We can get restoration work done in our 20s & 30s! We can combine it with
» some FUE work and it will probably look almost as good as if we never lost
» it! We don’t have to go through all the pain of HTs just to remain stuck
» with severe strip-scars, receeded NW#3 hairlines, and balding crowns
» anymore!
»
» What the hell else to people want from the first generation of HM?
»

»
» :wink:

I agree totally.I’d be happy with an NW2-3.

Roll on HM


#10

I’ve been reading this forum for
» years (longer than most here)

My ball’s bigger than yours,my dad’s bigger than your dad,I’ve been reading and posting on this forum longer than you,too!

Who cares how long you’ve been lurking in the background!


#11

Here is my speculation.

We have seen the measly hairs on rodents that ICX was able to grow, not very impressive, but we had hopes that the procedure would be able to be refined over time and make new hair or at least rejuvinate existing hair imprinting its donor-area DNA profile upon existing stem cells.

Now we have seen Follica, grow very thick DENSE hairs on mice. The hairs are white on mice that dont have epidermal growth factor blocked with an expensive drug for nine days post-wounding, but mice dont have pigmented skin. Its likely humans wont even need this unless its hair-growth for unpigmented scars. The hairs follica grew at l1 weeks, http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-US&brand=msnbc&vid=3b251041-8028-403d-a6fc-e749264afc01 were cosmetically very signifigant. They wont be white after using EGF-blockers for the nine day re-epilithialization period as later experiments proved.

Here is my scenario: Follica will be able to be used in thinned out -donor- areas after FUE transplants and in strip scars in the future to “rebuff” the donor area with donor-area-like hair. This will enable the donor area to be “re-harvested” once or twice for more frontal hair. In effect, HM.

I worry that follica WILL NOT be very successful in frontal scalp skin that has lost a water layer, and alot of fatty acids in the baldness process. The hairs formed up front might be small and weak. BUT IN THE BACK OF OUR HEADS, the hairs formed will probably be just about as cosmetically good as the donor hairs around them, and the density should be very good.

The wounds needed have to be over a cm in circumference, so believe it or not, the donor holes post transplant will probably have to heal, and be abraded with an instrument following a shave back there to make more hairs for further transplantation.

This is what I think can be done in the near-term. Im quite frankly losing faith in Aderans by the day…they never have even been able to show us a good photo of mice growing much hair. ICX has posted a mouse’s hair growing on an ear, and one thick photo of growth in the middle of a mouse’s back (the pic that got me excited about them), and a severely up-close shot of some hair on a scalp, but it was so short as to make it impossible to judge the quality. There is evidence for de noveau hairgrowth following wounding in humans in dermatologocial archives (Klingman noted it after acne dermabrasion), and we have all seen over the years (Ive been looking on hairloss boards since about 2001) of the occasional claim that this guy or that was cut and grew hair, injected minoxidil and grew hair, was hit by lightening on his head and grew hair, or razor bladed his scalp and put garlic (lithium is in garlic) on his crown and regrew some new hair. I have personally seen a car accident victim with wierdly thick hair growth in a head wound that was very severe----right in his temple area, thicker than the other hair on his head–which struck me as strange.

Follica has went on the Today show and pretty much told the world that they think they “have it” and will have a real effective solution to baldness. They are more optimistic than I am. I just hope they can create more hair for the donor area to be used in future transplantation.

ICX may have more success if they follow what I think might be useful with Follica, focusing on getting good hair growth in donor-area skin.
For Example, if a guy gets a FUE transplant, Intercytex could do its thing, but re-inject THE DONOR AREA instead of the front. I imagine that getting big thick hairs to grow in donor area skin that is thicker, has its water layer and fatty acid layer, will be eaiser than getting the hair to grow well in frontal scalp. Once big hairs are made in the back, they can be transplanted in the FUE-manner up front. I bet if they did this, they’d find that they would have more success. The MPB-process thins out the skin in the frontal scalp, making hair FORMATION there probably a much more tricky process. Id love to be wrong about that, but I have a feeling this is why the progress hasn’t been what was orignially expected. What better place to “cultivate” the new hair growth than in the back of the head, where donor hair comes from?

Thats my best guesses for what could get a real “hair multiplication” going in the near term instead of ten more years.


#12

I want the hairline I have now. Only thicker. I don’t want my hairline recreated. I just want 5 hairs where I now have 1 hair. Perhaps I’m in the minority, but my hairline doesn’t need adjustment (it’s receded a bit, but I’m fine with that). But I do need thickness added. And I don’t want a scalpel touching my head.


#13

» My ball’s bigger than yours,my dad’s bigger than your dad,

Buddy, you sound like you have more problems than hair loss. :wink: You sound immature, and appear to have self-esteem problems (getting so defensive and all.)


#14

» » My ball’s bigger than yours,my dad’s bigger than your dad,
»
» Buddy, you sound like you have more problems than hair loss. :wink: You sound
» immature, and appear to have self-esteem problems (getting so defensive and
» all.)

I shouldn’t really bother answering this silly comment,but I will.Its obvious you have took my joking the wrong way.

What you going to do if HM never happens,cry like a baby,I expect!

No need to answer this posting,I’m not interested in going on and on!

Just get a sence of humour - stop worrying about your hair falling out,it’ll only make it worse.

Shave all your hair off,you never know this might end up being best option (then what)


#15

So ICX negotiated with Bosley almost 4 years ago. 4 years and still not product. That’s kind of depressing.


#16

the only photographic evidence we have suggests that there is no issue with direction (as the main method of action is probably rejuvenation), the hair looked normal, colour was normal, of course the images do not show long hair so it’s hard to tell how long it would have grown. but the only legit issue I see is consistency (this is something they are trying to solve now as far as I understand it, and in deed the second cohort in phase 2 has 100% response whether in the first only 2 out of 5 did respond significantly, so it seems that even their delivery technique is being improved nicely) and possibly dht sensitivity of the new hair, which is something I’d add to your list (though some scientiic evidence says it might be all right, I still would not be surprised if something went wrong here).

bosley have an option (which means that if bosley decide, they may demand rights to distribute the thing). as far as I know it is not about exclusive rights

the question whether it will be add on or even standalone imho depends mainly on it’s effectiveness. If they mastered it I’m sure they would offer it as standalone as well.

All in all to sum it up, i think that your speculation is made upon old information and you do not seem to consider the new data and reports.


#17

» possibly dht sensitivity of the new hair, which is
» something I’d add to your list (though some scientiic evidence says it
» might be all right, I still would not be surprised if something went wrong
» here).
»

I have a question regarding the DHT issue. If it is indeed sensative, does that mean it will cycle only once, or would the hair cycle the same amount of times as the subject’s normal hair, then terminate. If its the latter, could you not expect the new hair to last at least a few years?


#18

» the only photographic evidence we have suggests

The only photograph I’ve seen was a close-up buzz shot of one subject, and it was hard to judge anything. If these are not the pics everyone else has seen, someone please post a link to the updated pics.

I usually don’t start threads like this. I’ve always said we need to wait until we see the hard data before we judge HM. That said, I stick to my prediction that it will be an adjunct treatment at first, if this actually gets to market. This is not a groundbreaking opinion. Washenik predicted long ago that this would be the course that HM would follow. If they further perfect it after that, it may be offered standalone someday.

» All in all to sum it up, i think that your speculation is made upon old
» information and you do not seem to consider the new data and reports.

No real good data has been released yet. That’s the problem. We are all just guessing at this point.


#19

» Here is my speculation.

Nice post.

» (Klingman noted it after acne dermabrasion),

If Kligman said it, you can just about bank on it. The guy is a legend in dermatology. BTW, there’s no ‘n’ before the ‘g’ in Kligman. He has a good head of hair, too, for a guy that’s ~ 90 years old:


#20

As for the bald skin thickness issue:

I think the HT industry has generally demonstrated that implanting healthy grafts (a resonable number on the first pass) will cause the balded skin to begin to revert to its eariler state and support the implanted grafts. Then the second pass is added later for density after the skin has had the year to heal up around the first pass grafts.

If this is what happens, then it would make sense that multiple passes of the Follica treatment would gradually turn the balded skin back to being able to support dense hair growth again.

Still might take a year or two, but it seems like the whole thing would basically work.