Was trying to find stuff related to Dr. Cotsarelis and came across above article and while skimming through it noticed two important things.
1). Dr. Cotsarelis also noted that the newly formed hair did not contain pigment. This is because the skin on the backs of mice does not contain melanocytes, the cells which create melanin and provide skin, eyes, and hair with pigmentation. However, the newly formed hair follicles did have melanocytes, suggesting any similar hair follicle creation in humans would result in colored hair.
That should take care of the skepticisim people had regarding the requirement of EGF inhibitor to have colored hair. WNT proteins themself alone Would Create hair with Color!
We have to keep in mind that the original research paper “Wnt-dependent de novo hair follicle regeneration in adult mouse skin after wounding” by Dr. Cotsarelis primarily was about WNT, NOT EGF. So we can safely experiment with WNT alone and bypass a very tricky variable (EGF inhibition).
2). In the meanwhile, Dr. Cotsarelis claims that it will be at least two to three years before a marketable cure for baldness can possibly be developed.
I find this prediction very encouraging. This article was published August in 2007, since then follica has already started a research study which should have ended by now. So we are already past the 1 year mark, so a cure could be 1-2 years away.
» http://www.docshop.com/2007/08/09/of-mice-and-men-and-women-is-a-cure-for-hair-loss-on-the-horizon/
»
» Was trying to find stuff related to Dr. Cotsarelis and came across above
» article and while skimming through it noticed two important things.
»
» 1). Dr. Cotsarelis also noted that the newly formed hair did not
» contain pigment. This is because the skin on the backs of mice does not
» contain melanocytes, the cells which create melanin and provide skin,
» eyes, and hair with pigmentation. However, the newly formed hair
» follicles did have melanocytes, suggesting any similar hair follicle
» creation in humans would result in colored hair.
»
» That should take care of the skepticisim people had regarding the
» requirement of EGF inhibitor to have colored hair. WNT proteins themself
» alone Would Create hair with Color!
»
» We have to keep in mind that the original research paper “Wnt-dependent de
» novo hair follicle regeneration in adult mouse skin after wounding” by Dr.
» Cotsarelis primarily was about WNT, NOT EGF. So we can safely experiment
» with WNT alone and bypass a very tricky variable (EGF inhibition).
»
» 2). In the meanwhile, Dr. Cotsarelis claims that it will be at least
» two to three years before a marketable cure for baldness can possibly
» be developed.
»
» I find this prediction very encouraging. This article was published
» August in 2007, since then follica has already started a research study
» which should have ended by now. So we are already past the 1 year mark, so
» a cure could be 1-2 years away.
Goata007 , if a cure from Follica hits the market in 1-2 years then you can come to my country and spend hollidays on my charge (all u gotta do is booking tickets :p)
»
» 2). In the meanwhile, Dr. Cotsarelis claims that it will be at least
» two to three years before a marketable cure for baldness can possibly
» be developed.
»
» I find this prediction very encouraging. This article was published
» August in 2007, since then follica has already started a research study
» which should have ended by now. So we are already past the 1 year mark, so
» a cure could be 1-2 years away.
he said it would take 2-3 years before a marketable cure can possibly be DEVELOPED, not be on the market.
so that means that the development of the cure might be 1-2 years away, but there’s no guarantee it’ll be on the market in 1-2 years. it still has to go through the fda process.
and that’s IF they even find a cure through follica. the way i read dr. cotsarelis’ comments, he is saying that at the time he made that comment, follica’s process did NOT consist of a cure, only a POTENTIAL cure that had to be further developed before it could be a real cure.
so not only do we have to wait for this potential cure to become a real cure (meaning they still have more research to do), once they arrive at the real cure (if they ever actually do arrive at it), we will then have to wait for all the clinical trials and for it to pass through the fda review.
We have to keep in mind that the original research paper “Wnt-dependent de novo hair follicle regeneration in adult mouse skin after wounding” by Dr. Cotsarelis primarily was about WNT, NOT EGF. So we can safely experiment with WNT alone and bypass a very tricky variable (EGF inhibition).
My personal feeling is that if you can get the wnt protein boosted enough after the damage, you can regenerate existing hair follicles. Follica’s method is to inhibit the skin cell formation long enough so that “new” hair cells (whatever you want to call it) will evolve. Doesn’t just wounding and dipulating alone will boost wnt, I think it does? But doing that alone won’t give any results worth mentioning. You need an egf-r to get results. I think baccy came closest but he didn’t use a drug like getfitnib for his topical, he used a substitute. Benji and Tagohl tried the drug orally, which I personally don’t agree with, and didn’t see anything. Thy are brave in trying it this way. Frankiebaby just wounded and applied getfitnib and reported some, although minimal, results – I think his method needs tweaking. Over at regrowthdotcom, Niddhodge recently wounded his temple with tca peel and mixed up a 1.5% solution of getfitnib. I’m anxious to see if his results are similiar to Frankiebaby. I’ve always felt personally it should be applied topically. The only thing you need to ingest to create the best environment during treatment are things like Dut, Fin, Benadryl (anti-histmine). Things like egf-r and immunesuppresants should be done topically. I’ve seen that gross “acne” photo of the Getfinib patient and I highly doubt that this drug is intended to be taken internally to the mass population looking for this treatment when it comes out. My assumption why some are doing it internally are because of the pictures of the cancer patients with hair growth on the nose and the other with growth up top.
» Goata007 , if a cure from Follica hits the market in 1-2 years then you
» can come to my country and spend hollidays on my charge (all u gotta do is
» booking tickets :p)
» he said it would take 2-3 years before a marketable cure can possibly be
» DEVELOPED, not be on the market.
The CURE itself is pretty much already OUT! They may have to tweak it a little bit and that is what they are doing right now. So when Dr. Cotsarelis said 2-3 years, he probably meant including the trials, because that is the only part left to be done.
They have successfully done the tests on mice, they have got the science right, they are NOT making a special drug. The follicles in mice have melanocytes and cycle normally. So again, everything is pretty much done. They may need to get the FDA approval, but we don’t know yet. So I’m really not gonna argue about that, since it will depend a lot on the drugs they will use.
» » he said it would take 2-3 years before a marketable cure can possibly be
» » DEVELOPED, not be on the market.
»
» The CURE itself is pretty much already OUT! They may have to tweak it a
» little bit and that is what they are doing right now. So when Dr.
» Cotsarelis said 2-3 years, he probably meant including the trials, because
» that is the only part left to be done.
»
» They have successfully done the tests on mice, they have got the science
» right, they are NOT making a special drug. The follicles in mice have
» melanocytes and cycle normally. So again, everything is pretty much done.
» They may need to get the FDA approval, but we don’t know yet. So I’m really
» not gonna argue about that, since it will depend a lot on the drugs they
» will use.
there is no such thing as 2 year long FDA trials, you are 5 times off the mark
» » he said it would take 2-3 years before a marketable cure can possibly be
» » DEVELOPED, not be on the market.
»
» The CURE itself is pretty much already OUT! …
wishful thinking, you only have patent claims for now.
» » he said it would take 2-3 years before a marketable cure can possibly be
» » DEVELOPED, not be on the market.
»
» The CURE itself is pretty much already OUT!
where is the cure out, goata007?
ok, so they’ve grown hair on mice… so have a lot of people. intercytex has grown hair on mice but their cure is far from “out”.
show me the proof that hair has been grown on humans from this follica process.
» » » he said it would take 2-3 years before a marketable cure can possibly
» be
» » » DEVELOPED, not be on the market.
» »
» » The CURE itself is pretty much already OUT!
»
» where is the cure out, goata007?
»
» ok, so they’ve grown hair on mice… so have a lot of people. intercytex
» has grown hair on mice but their cure is far from “out”.
»
» show me the proof that hair has been grown on humans from this follica
» process.
They grew hair on human skin grafted on to a mouse, I know its not exactly on a human but it’s more than just growing hair on mice like all the others.
I’m not holding my breath for it being on the market in 2 years, if they could at least show a working proof of concept on humans by then I’d be more than happy.
» there is no such thing as 2 year long FDA trials, you are 5 times off the
» mark
I wasn’t implying that the FDA trials will be done in 2 years. Maybe Follica doesn’t need trials or long trials for that matter.Why else would he say “a product” and not a “potential cure”.
The above quotes Dr. Cotsarelis in 2007, and the says “If it all went perfectly then possibly in two to three years we would have a product, but that’s very optimistic.”
Everything has been working optimistically for Follica till now, from raising significant funding to even doing a research study. IMO, they are going through various stages of product development much faster than Intercytex ever went.
» » » he said it would take 2-3 years before a marketable cure can possibly
» be
» » » DEVELOPED, not be on the market.
» »
» » The CURE itself is pretty much already OUT! …
»
» wishful thinking, you only have patent claims for now.
The patent is the cure, it has variations to all the science they have learned so far. He isn’t your some-guy who just filed a patent with some arbitrary claims, everything in the patent is backed by solid research & science.
» » » » he said it would take 2-3 years before a marketable cure can
» possibly
» » be
» » » » DEVELOPED, not be on the market.
» » »
» » » The CURE itself is pretty much already OUT! …
» »
» » wishful thinking, you only have patent claims for now.
»
» The patent is the cure, it has variations to all the science they have
» learned so far. He isn’t your some-guy who just filed a patent with some
» arbitrary claims, everything in the patent is backed by solid research &
» science.
Well, I hope that you are right, but that’s not exactly what I think; anyway, let’s guess it will be a success, there are some minor problems with follica … for example, when needed, how can you build a hairline ? … have you think about that ?, will we need a HT for that ?, what d’you think ?
I really wonder if this Folica regeneration thing is bigger than just MPB. I wonder if it’s gonna also turn out to be the first workable way that we’ll find to reverse the age-related greying of hair too.
Both of the infamous Genfilitib cancer patients were undoubtedly old enough to be normally producing a bunch of grey hairs on both the head and the face (nose). And yet the new hairs still looked pretty dark.
» Well, I hope that you are right, but that’s not exactly what I think;
» anyway, let’s guess it will be a success, there are some minor problems
» with follica … for example, when needed, how can you build a hairline ?
» … have you think about that ?, will we need a HT for that ?, what d’you
» think ?
Since dermabrasion is an important part of the Follica process. It will be much easier to create hairlines i.e. just nicely dermabrade in a desired pattern. Afterwards if the hairline looks unnatural then you could do a light FUE procedure at the hairline.
My only concern is the density that can be achieved with Follica, apparently a full head of hair has 100 something hairs per cm2 BUT people notice balding when they are down to about 30 per cm2. So as long as Follica can give us 35-40 hairs per cm2, we should all be good!
@cal, yes infact Follica’s website also talks about various conditions i.e. scarring alopecia, acne, greying hair etc that they plan on treating, since they are all related to the hair follicle.
Remember that we have been thru this path before with other researchers. Just like with Follica, there was the “its just a matter of time”, “he/they found out how and just needs a bit more time”.
At this stage its just research. In general, only when Follica or any other company can show us clean cut data/evidence that it is working on human heads (more than one) with reasonable safety ness and reasonable amount of terminal hair can we start saying that we hit the jackpot. Even then, I would want to hear a true product “start date”.
The key parts in the statement Dr. Cotsarelis claims that it will be at least two to three years before a marketable cure for baldness can possibly be developed is that a marketable cure has NOT been developed yet. Plus they added the words “at least”. This ambiguous word is always thrown out there during the research phase.
Similarly in the statement ““If it all went perfectly then possibly in two to three years we would have a product, but that’s very optimistic.” the word “IF” is the key word. That means he has NO IDEA of what problems will come up.
While I like the fact that Dr Cotsarelis estimation is under the usual “within 5 years” mark, he still finds it to be “very optimistic” guess. I may remind you that initially Dr Gho said to expect HM in 1 year. Once he actually began the human trials, he realized it’s a different ball game.
While I always hope, I believe we need to wait for more data to come in.
» Wow! Really optimistic posts here!
»
» Remember that we have been thru this path before with other researchers.
» Just like with Follica, there was the “its just a matter of time”, “he/they
» found out how and just needs a bit more time”.
»
» At this stage its just research. In general, only when Follica or any
» other company can show us clean cut data/evidence that it is working on
» human heads (more than one) with reasonable safety ness and reasonable
» amount of terminal hair can we start saying that we hit the jackpot. Even
» then, I would want to hear a true product “start date”.
»
» The key parts in the statement Dr. Cotsarelis claims that it
» will be at least two to three years before a marketable cure for baldness
» can possibly be developed is that a marketable cure has NOT
» been developed yet. Plus they added the words “at least”. This
» ambiguous word is always thrown out there during the research phase.
»
» Similarly in the statement ““If it all went perfectly then
» possibly in two to three years we would have a product, but that’s very
» optimistic.” the word “IF” is the key word. That means he
» has NO IDEA of what problems will come up.
»
» While I like the fact that Dr Cotsarelis estimation is under the usual
» “within 5 years” mark, he still finds it to be “very optimistic”
» guess. I may remind you that initially Dr Gho said to expect HM in 1 year.
» Once he actually began the human trials, he realized it’s a different ball
» game.
»
» While I always hope, I believe we need to wait for more data to come in.
I do agree with this however if you think about it he cant be too specific with timelines or anything else! If he said ‘there will be a marketable product in 2 years’ then he would have set himself a deadline he might not be able to keep to! The interview with Zohar in May i think was pretty non specific about timelines as well. The only thing they said was they were going as fast as they could within the constraints of bringing a product to market!
I do have hope for this although its all just speculation until they release another statement or interview! If you look on their website they clearly state they will not reply to members questions until they are ready to do so!
“Marketable” is also an important word. Conceivably, they could be at the stage where they are routinely regenerating hair with reliable results yet for a variety of reasons still not be at the stage where it is “marketable.” There may be test subjects, persons in trials, etc walking around with full heads of hair for some interval before the process is ready to go to market. (There could be already, for all we know.) This was the case, for example, with laser eye surgery, now common and widely marketed.
» Remember that we have been thru this path before with other researchers.
» Just like with Follica, there was the “its just a matter of time”, “he/they
» found out how and just needs a bit more time”.
»
» At this stage its just research. In general, only when Follica or any
» other company can show us clean cut data/evidence that it is working on
» human heads (more than one) with reasonable safety ness and reasonable
» amount of terminal hair can we start saying that we hit the jackpot. Even
» then, I would want to hear a true product “start date”.
I would agree with your statements if Follica was a new treatment But it isn’t! This is what the company rep said about Follica’s procedure on xconomy
“We have seen numerous clinical reports of patients showing sustained hair cycling when exposed to conditions similar to the treatment Follica is pursuing (in a carefully directed and controlled way).”
»
» The key parts in the statement Dr. Cotsarelis claims that it
» will be at least two to three years before a marketable cure for baldness
» can possibly be developed is that a marketable cure has NOT
» been developed yet. Plus they added the words “at least”. This
» ambiguous word is always thrown out there during the research phase.
Agin follica’s procedure isn’t like Intercytex or anyother where they have to multiply DP cells or thoroughly understand the pathways involved etc. They’ve pretty much got the science right, from mice. They even went through a research study to get signalling info post-wounding on humans. There really isn’t much to research left other than to try the procedure - which is simple wounding.
I think when Dr. Cotsarelis said “at least” he also included time to do get funding, research studies etc. And they have been going through all these pretty quickly. The only issue they could run up against is the hair density they’ll be able to achieve on a bald head. But take it from a guy who’s literally bald on top, if it could even grow 5000-some terminals hair on my top I’d still go for it.
Yes, Follica’s research is different than the Intercytexs and the Dr Ghos and they may very well be successful but from the information that I heard so far I can’t say they succeeded yet.
Similar statement were made by others.
Intercytex, told us that they had produced terminal hair on 5 of 7 (going by memory) patients while they were just testing for safety. So that sounded promising too. While it was promising, we still were not getting scientifically conclusive facts. Just like with their latest report, it was way to ambiguous of a statement.
Dr Gho told us that he was successful. Later changed it to being inconsistent but successful. From memory he said the success rate was between 20-80%. Later he said he was sure that he would improve the success rate. Then he told us that even if there were no improvements to his protocols he thought it was good enough that it would still come out, as is, by 2007.
In summary, they ALL reported that their procedure was growing hair. For ICX (5 of 7) and upto 80% success rate for Dr Gho and Follica showed “hair cycling”.
Yes, one procedure may be more complex than the other. Still, ask yourself. What is truly different between the statements that were made by these three researchers? What would make you say we finally found a cure?
So just like your statement above (Follica showed “hair cycling”), all we received were very ambiguous reports of terminal hair being reported. Trust me, if they reported internally(within their company) the way they reported to us, they would be fired!!!
Whoever it may be that finally succeeds, all I am saying is that we need better data/evidence before we can start popping the champagne bottles.
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