Follicept

Stem cell; cell based hair therapy
21

Didn’t know about that study linking DHT to suppression of IGF-1. Thanks for that, it could be significant.

I’m still really skeptical about this even with that study, though, because we know that DHT (not unlike most hormones), has literally scores or possibly even hundreds of effects, some of them significant, some of them very trivial. And remember, they’re showing that DHT somehow suppresses IGF-1 activity, not the other way around.

I wonder what else in the body suppresses IGF-1 activity. It could be thousands of things. Have they checked for regular Testosterone? Thyroid or parathyroid hormones? Estrogen? Prostaglandins? Acetlycholine?

This is either significant, or it could just be an example of scientists who went into the study with a preconceived conclusion, and were specifically looking for a link between DHT and IGF-1. It is not hard for scientists to fudge such a result and present the data in such a way that it shows the desired relationship. In other words, maybe these scientists wanted to show some kind of correlation between the two, and specifically did this experiment to show that, and then presented the results to highlight that correlation.

22

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]
Didn’t know about that study linking DHT to suppression of IGF-1. Thanks for that, it could be significant.

I’m still really skeptical about this even with that study, though, because we know that DHT (not unlike most hormones), has literally scores or possibly even hundreds of effects, some of them significant, some of them very trivial. And remember, they’re showing that DHT somehow suppresses IGF-1 activity, not the other way around.

I wonder what else in the body suppresses IGF-1 activity. It could be thousands of things. Have they checked for regular Testosterone? Thyroid or parathyroid hormones? Estrogen? Prostaglandins? Acetlycholine?

This is either significant, or it could just be an example of scientists who went into the study with a preconceived conclusion, and were specifically looking for a link between DHT and IGF-1. It is not hard for scientists to fudge such a result and present the data in such a way that it shows the desired relationship. In other words, maybe these scientists wanted to show some kind of correlation between the two, and specifically did this experiment to show that, and then presented the results to highlight that correlation.[/quote]

  1. The study showing the effect DHT has on IGF is the most interesting study I have seen in association with Follicept’s treatment ideas.

  2. Of course it’s possible that the study indicating a DHT/IGF connection could be biased and/or inaccurate, but that could be said of any study. And it’s illogical to assume that the result is inacturate or biased unless you have a measure of proof that it is. Logically, one should conclude that the results could be inacurate or biased (like any study results could be inacurate or biased) but in the absence of proof to that effect one has to accept that there is a chance that the study results are fair and accurate.

  3. It looks to me like they are saying that DHT has a downstream effect on IGF and that the downstream effect that DHT has on IGF inhibits hair growth.

  4. IGF is also known to affect cell proliferation.

  5. It kind of makes me wonder if IGF might modulate hair growth in multiple ways.

Anyway, I’m not saying that IGF can definitely grow hair. I’m just saying that based on the studies I’ve seen it might grow hair. But it might just grow a few hairs and/or it might not grow hair in all hair loss sufferers. Or it might mediate hair growth in combination with other growth factors that also have to be added to the mix in order to achieve success, such as WNTs.

I’m doubtful that Follicept will work but I haven’t completely ruled it out yet. There are too many studies indicating that IGF mediates hair growth to ignore.

23

I wonder then if there’s a link between PGD2 and IGF-1.

Maybe IGF-1 is downstream of both DHT and PGD2?

Maybe DHT leads to production of more PGD2 which causes less IGF-1 to be made?

24

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]
I wonder then if there’s a link between PGD2 and IGF-1.

Maybe IGF-1 is downstream of both DHT and PGD2?

Maybe DHT leads to production of more PGD2 which causes less IGF-1 to be made?[/quote]

I’ve been wondering these same things myself. I can’t find any studies demonstrating any effect that PGD2 has on IGF-1. I have found posts on numerous hair loss websites where posters say that it has been proved that PGD2 reduces IGF-1. But these are regular blokes posting and none of them have posted links to their “proof.”

25

check out the above study Roger.

And Roger, after all the studies about IGF-1/hair loss I’ve posted here are you certain that Follicept is snake-oil and IGF-1 can’t grow hair?

This Follicept/IGF-1 really came out of left-field and took me by surprise. There is too much evidence in support of this idea for me reject the idea out of hand. And the evidence is credible. Most of these studies are sponsored by the NIH and the NIH is not a pie-in-the-sky organization.

26

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by jarjarbinx[/postedby]
Insulin-like growth factor-1: roles in androgenetic alopecia - PubMed

check out the above study Roger.

And Roger, after all the studies about IGF-1/hair loss I’ve posted here are you certain that Follicept is snake-oil and IGF-1 can’t grow hair?

This Follicept/IGF-1 really came out of left-field and took me by surprise. There is too much evidence in support of this idea for me reject the idea out of hand. And the evidence is credible. Most of these studies are sponsored by the NIH and the NIH is not a pie-in-the-sky organization.[/quote]

OK, now you’ve got my attention. As for my earlier denunciation of Follicept – it looks like I was way too premature in writing them off so quickly.

This may be quite significant. It’s all there – IGF-1 is involved in “cell proliferation”… DP cells… probable downregulation by androgens including DHT…

Maybe IGF-1 is the final link in the chain from DHT to hair loss? Downregulation of IGF-1 might be the last (or one of the very last) significant events in the cascade before the DP cells stop proliferating.

If so, this might work…

I wonder where Dr. Cots was on this and why he wasn’t involved (apparently) in these studies. This would seem right up his alley.

Reading more from the Follicept website about how they plan to deliver the IGF-1, it looks like possibly some cream or gel to spread on the scalp, overnight for 3 nights a week (wonder why only 3 – possible problems with toxicity if used too much? – that might be a red flag)… while wearing some kind of hair net. (I’m sure that’ll impress the ladies! :-P)

Anyway, they’re saying they might not need FDA approval and mandatory clinical trials, if they can get the FDA to agree this is not a new drug (the intricacies of this are a bit more complicated than that). I’m skeptical about that, but if they don’t require formal clinical trials, won’t they at least conduct their own informal trials before they start selling the stuff? I mean, just to confirm this stuff works?

Frankly, I don’t expect amazing results from this stuff, probably no better than Rogaine, but now that I know everything you’ve showed us, it’s definitely worth a try. It’s worth our attention. It would be sad if it doesn’t work well, considering the apparent centrality of IGF-1 in DP cell proliferation, but now I’m on board – I want to see more.

Thanks for keeping us updated on this, jarjar!

PS - repeat after me

FOLLICEPT IS THE CURE
FOLLICEPT IS THE CURE
FOLLICEPT IS THE CURE

27

I’m also highly skeptical of Follicept. I just think we should keep track of it because there’s a slim chance that it might work. I was also thinking that if it does work it could be the final link in the chain that = hair loss.

And I was also wondering why Cots hasn’t mentioned IGF-1. It does seem like IGF-1 would be right up his alley since he’s investigating growth factors that are increased or decreased in hair loss and IGF-1 is decreased in hair loss.

But I did recall that Cotseralis said there is a shortage of progenitor cells in balding follicles. And I kind of wondered if the reason there’s a shortage of progenitor cells in the scalp is because there is not enough IGF (and maybe other growth factors) in the follicles to initiate a sufficient proliferation of progenitor cells to grow hair.

I wouldn’t get my hopes up about IGF-1 though, Roger. Even if it works it will probably just grow a few hairs in a small percentage of men.

28

This does sound somewhat exciting. However the fact that IGF-1 is responsible for cell proliferation has been well known for quite a while, I would be surprised if that was the sole answer to full hair growth. Sounds a bit too straight forward to me.

regards, hairman

[quote][postedby]Originally Posted by jarjarbinx[/postedby]
Insulin-like growth factor-1: roles in androgenetic alopecia - PubMed

check out the above study Roger.

And Roger, after all the studies about IGF-1/hair loss I’ve posted here are you certain that Follicept is snake-oil and IGF-1 can’t grow hair?

This Follicept/IGF-1 really came out of left-field and took me by surprise. There is too much evidence in support of this idea for me reject the idea out of hand. And the evidence is credible. Most of these studies are sponsored by the NIH and the NIH is not a pie-in-the-sky organization.

[postedby]Originally Posted by roger_that[/postedby]

OK, now you’ve got my attention. As for my earlier denunciation of Follicept – it looks like I was way too premature in writing them off so quickly.

This may be quite significant. It’s all there – IGF-1 is involved in “cell proliferation”… DP cells… probable downregulation by androgens including DHT…

Maybe IGF-1 is the final link in the chain from DHT to hair loss? Downregulation of IGF-1 might be the last (or one of the very last) significant events in the cascade before the DP cells stop proliferating.

If so, this might work…

I wonder where Dr. Cots was on this and why he wasn’t involved (apparently) in these studies. This would seem right up his alley.

Reading more from the Follicept website about how they plan to deliver the IGF-1, it looks like possibly some cream or gel to spread on the scalp, overnight for 3 nights a week (wonder why only 3 – possible problems with toxicity if used too much? – that might be a red flag)… while wearing some kind of hair net. (I’m sure that’ll impress the ladies! :-P)

Anyway, they’re saying they might not need FDA approval and mandatory clinical trials, if they can get the FDA to agree this is not a new drug (the intricacies of this are a bit more complicated than that). I’m skeptical about that, but if they don’t require formal clinical trials, won’t they at least conduct their own informal trials before they start selling the stuff? I mean, just to confirm this stuff works?

Frankly, I don’t expect amazing results from this stuff, probably no better than Rogaine, but now that I know everything you’ve showed us, it’s definitely worth a try. It’s worth our attention. It would be sad if it doesn’t work well, considering the apparent centrality of IGF-1 in DP cell proliferation, but now I’m on board – I want to see more.

Thanks for keeping us updated on this, jarjar!

PS - repeat after me

FOLLICEPT IS THE CURE
FOLLICEPT IS THE CURE
FOLLICEPT IS THE CURE[/quote]

29

I agree, I would be surprised if it were this straightforward. The role of IGF-1 has been known for a while.

As for Cotsarelis - why are you guys assuming he is being honest with the public about all he knows? His track record totally suggests the contrary.

The fact that he isn’t involved in this suggests to me that what he does know does not suggest a therapeutic usefulness.

30

I really don’t think Follicept is going to work. I find it very doubtful that IGF-1 alone could solve the hair loss problem. I think that even if IGF-1 is part of the solution it’s highly unlikely that all by itself it’s the entire solution. I think that at minimum it will take IGF-1 plus other growth factors to solve the problem.

All that having been said, IGF-1 does drive cell proliferation and it’s a shortage of some cells (progenitor cells) that drives hair loss. Perhaps the shortage of IGF-1 all by itself is why there is a shortage of progenitor cells. Keep the following in mind:

  1. Androgens are definitely in the hair loss chain and Androgens do, in fact, reduce IGF-1 in the follicles.

  2. Balding follicles contain less IGF-1.

  3. Healthy hair follicles have higher amounts of IGF-1.

  4. One study I found stated unequivocally that androgens cause hair loss by
    reducing IGF-1. Here is that study againL

Lastly, we should all keep in mind that even if IGF-1 alone can cure hair loss that doesn’t mean that Follicept has the winning formulation of IGF-1.

31

IGF-1 is a big molecule. So until now, it’s usually been injected.

To get enough IGF-1 to the follicles via injection, you’d overdose on IGF-1. As a result, nobody has bothered researching injections much.

IGF-1 is without a doubt involved. Will they need other growth factors? Maybe. Maybe not. Both minox and fin work by (among other things) increasing igf-1 by upregulating the creation of it, or fighting against the degradation of it.

This is worth watching, at the very least, they’re testing something that has never been fully tested.

AAPE (jarjar’s favorite thing in the world other than ngiam) consists of (you guessed it) igf-1 (amongst other things).

I would never, ever, disregard anything just because costeralis isn’t involved. that is the laziest dumbest logic ever. Of course its a good sign if he is involved, but him not being involved really doesn’t tell us anything what so ever. He can only work on so many projects, in fact, the chances are he wont be involved in the cure. He gets to make one bet with his time…and there’s so many routes to a cure right now… those aren’t great odds