Follica patent in a paragraph

Stem cell; cell based hair therapy
21

I have actually already been doing pretty much what you guys are planning. A quick summary.

On June 13th I used a 180 sandpaper on the top of my scalp and in front of my hairline. A bit painful even after applying a lidocain cream so be sure to have some pain killers.

I was specially careful to wound deep enough in front of my hairline since no hair is growing there. The area was very red and I stopped at first sign of blod.

For the first eight days I ate an antibiotic (doxi…? dont remember) since I read in the patent that mice who fed on this for nine days grew pigmented hair. But they were geneticly altered so it may not have this effect on humans.

48 hours after the wounding I started applying an immunosuppresant (Elidel cream) once a day for 9 days. I am not sure why immunosuppresant are in the patent but I figured that maybe it suppresed the Wnt signaling and caused pigmentation of the hair. Took a gamble on that one.

My intention was to apply the EGFR inhibitor (Arava, leflunomide) when the crust would fall of but the order came in late. The crust fell of after a week and on the twelfth day I could apply a 0.5 % leflunomide solution (300 mg arava crushed and mixed in 2% minox) twice a day for eight days. I also applied spectral dnc-l (for better absorbtion of the leflunomide) and flutagel. I did not wash my scalp for one week and could not go outside without something on my head so be prepared for that.

There is no sign of new hair growth after three weeks, in the patent they mention seeing new hair as early as 25 days so my experience may have failed. If so it could be that I missed the “window” and should have applied the minox/leflunomid/flutagel much earlier. There was no signs of sideeffects I might add, and the arava was pretty cheap (70 dollars). Other egfr inhibitors might be better though.

I believe there are two crucial points in succesing with this. First the wounding must be deep enough (I stopped when I started seeing blood) and the other is the timing of application. When wounding the mice by cutting they waited 11-12 days and then applied the egfr inhibitor, which was followed by hair growth. When doing abrasion the skin heals quicker so therefor I believe the application should take place 3-5 days after wounding or maybe directly when the crust falls of (day seven). I dont believe chemical peeling is enough for wounding.

If I dont see any growth at all within a month I will do a new experiment on a smaller area and apply the solution much earlier. The leflunomide solution would easily last three treatments when I apply 1 ml twice a day.

So if anyone is doing their own experiment try applying the egfr inhibitor earlier and using something else then Arava. If enough people dare to try this route we will soon find out the optimal strategy for growing hair. But everyone do this on their own risk!

22

benji,cal,TAGHOL, MPB…you need to discuss with Z79

23

The first thing that comes to mind is this: We don’t know whether Leflunomide is a decent shot for skin absorption or not. By what we know now, the only sure way to get the effects from it would be systemically.

Second thing - The unknowns about immunosuppressants & minox on the wound. We know a systemically-suppressed immune system helps, but we don’t know for sure that a topical isn’t going to do the opposite.

In theory, dermbrasion would cause at least a little thickening/regrowth with no drugs at all. (And this has been my abrading/wounding experience too.) And even if Leflunomide fails to be a viable topically-absorbed drug, I would imagine that surely some small amount of it got through anyway.

If you don’t see ANYTHING in the way of results, then it may be time to conclude that some aspect of your particular experiment not only failed to work but actively fouled things up.

24

» The first thing that comes to mind is this: We don’t know whether
» Leflunomide is a decent shot for skin absorption or not. By what we know
» now, the only sure way to get the effects from it would be systemically.
»
»
» Second thing - The unknowns about immunosuppressants & minox on the wound.
» We know a systemically-suppressed immune system helps, but we don’t know
» for sure that a topical isn’t going to do the opposite.
»
»
»
»
» In theory, dermbrasion would cause at least a little thickening/regrowth
» with no drugs at all. (And this has been my abrading/wounding experience
» too.) And even if Leflunomide fails to be a viable topically-absorbed
» drug, I would imagine that surely some small amount of it got through
» anyway.
»
» If you don’t see ANYTHING in the way of results, then it may be time to
» conclude that some aspect of your particular experiment not only failed to
» work but actively fouled things up.

You have good points, we dont know how well leflunomide is absorbed but it did mix fairly well in minox at least. I never applied immunosuppresants and minox at the same time, first it was the Elidel cream for nine days and then the minox/leflunomid/fin compound.

It might be to early to see any result for three weeks, but at least any newly formed hair follicles would be present by now (if it worked) so the next few weeks should tell if it was a total failure.

At least my present hair growth has not been messed up and as far as I know I have gotten no sides.

What does everyone think that the immunosuppresants in the patent is supposed to do? Maybe I will skip it the next time and stick with the EGFR inhibitor, minox and fin.
Androgens are actually mentioned in the patent to have the same effect as EGFR inhibitors in one paragraph so maybe flutamide alone could have a positive effect if people have a hard time gettin some EGFR inhibitors.

25

» You have good points, we dont know how well leflunomide is absorbed but it
» did mix fairly well in minox at least.

Absorption isn’t really the concern. Rather, its how leflunomide is metabolized in the skin. Leflunomide needs to be converted to its active form to be biologically effective. The question is whether the skin is capable of performing this enzymatic conversion. I have no idea if the skin can do this or not. The other option is to take leflunomide orally for the treatment period. If you can afford it, I’d buy one of the FDA approved EGFR inhibitors.

» What does everyone think that the immunosuppresants

If you are asking for opinions, I’d dump the immunosuppressants and try to keep it as simple as possible: wound + EGF inhibitor, with maybe minox and an antiandrogen added on. I’d start the antiandrogen before the wounding, and then start applying the EGF antagonist and minoxidil several days after wounding.

26

I think I’d be inclined to get it down as simply as possible for a first try, even if it might not be the ideal growth. I just wanna know if this sht works PERIOD right now. Fck EVERYTHING else until that original million-dollar question is settled.

Maybe literally just take oral Finasteride the whole time, and take the oral EGF drug for 10 days starting 4 days after wounding. Maybe no topicals at all.

The only other thing that doesn’t seem raise any possible potential to complicate things in live humans would be the chemical hair depilation 3 days before the wound.

It seems like every single other possible thing in all those patents is either different from the mouse successes in some way, or else we can’t 100% guarantee that it won’t foul-up the healing if used topically.

27

»
» If you are asking for opinions, I’d dump the immunosuppressants and try to
» keep it as simple as possible: wound + EGF inhibitor, with maybe minox and
» an antiandrogen added on. I’d start the antiandrogen before the wounding,
» and then start applying the EGF antagonist and minoxidil several days after
» wounding.

Yeah maybe it is better to take the EGFR inhibitors orally, but some how I am more concerned with side effects then. I know that this probably is silly since some people has to eat these medicines every day for months and not just a week.

So many people here seem desperate for new hair but so few seem to be willing to experiment. It is a shame beacause I believe with some trial and error we would crack the patent and come up with a working routine. We are working with approved drugs so there is no real danger, it will work or it wont.

I hope some of you will try different ways than I did so we could rule out what works or not.

28

» I have actually already been doing pretty much what you guys are planning.
» A quick summary.
»
» On June 13th I used a 180 sandpaper on the top of my scalp and in front of
» my hairline. A bit painful even after applying a lidocain cream so be sure
» to have some pain killers.
»
» I was specially careful to wound deep enough in front of my hairline since
» no hair is growing there. The area was very red and I stopped at first sign
» of blod.
»
» For the first eight days I ate an antibiotic (doxi…? dont remember) since
» I read in the patent that mice who fed on this for nine days grew pigmented
» hair. But they were geneticly altered so it may not have this effect on
» humans.
»
» 48 hours after the wounding I started applying an immunosuppresant (Elidel
» cream) once a day for 9 days. I am not sure why immunosuppresant are in the
» patent but I figured that maybe it suppresed the Wnt signaling and caused
» pigmentation of the hair. Took a gamble on that one.

Maybe these guys are right in that you may need to use lithium to suppress the wnt signaling even though it isn’t mentioned in the patent. I know this seems to be the common ingrediant they are using over on that “other site” and some swear they are seeing terminal hairs where there weren’t any before. I dont know why it isn’t mentioned in the latest Follica patent but I’m sure they have the procedure down pat where if they get their ducks in a row “just right”, everything works!

»
» My intention was to apply the EGFR inhibitor (Arava, leflunomide) when the
» crust would fall of but the order came in late. The crust fell of after a
» week and on the twelfth day I could apply a 0.5 % leflunomide solution (300
» mg arava crushed and mixed in 2% minox) twice a day for eight days. I also
» applied spectral dnc-l (for better absorbtion of the leflunomide) and
» flutagel. I did not wash my scalp for one week and could not go outside
» without something on my head so be prepared for that.

I’m not sure what happened here. I’m sure Benji can give you a better explanation than I can, but hey if we are all trying different applications of the patent, one of us is bound to get a hit. Best of luck!

»
» There is no sign of new hair growth after three weeks, in the patent they
» mention seeing new hair as early as 25 days so my experience may have
» failed. If so it could be that I missed the “window” and should have
» applied the minox/leflunomid/flutagel much earlier. There was no signs of
» sideeffects I might add, and the arava was pretty cheap (70 dollars). Other
» egfr inhibitors might be better though.
»
» I believe there are two crucial points in succesing with this. First the
» wounding must be deep enough (I stopped when I started seeing blood) and
» the other is the timing of application. When wounding the mice by cutting
» they waited 11-12 days and then applied the egfr inhibitor, which was
» followed by hair growth. When doing abrasion the skin heals quicker so
» therefor I believe the application should take place 3-5 days after
» wounding or maybe directly when the crust falls of (day seven). I dont
» believe chemical peeling is enough for wounding.
»
» If I dont see any growth at all within a month I will do a new experiment
» on a smaller area and apply the solution much earlier. The leflunomide
» solution would easily last three treatments when I apply 1 ml twice a day.
»
» So if anyone is doing their own experiment try applying the egfr inhibitor
» earlier and using something else then Arava. If enough people dare to try
» this route we will soon find out the optimal strategy for growing hair. But
» everyone do this on their own risk!

29

Already there.

I’ve had a small amount of generic Arava pills for a while now.

I’ve been sitting on the stuff for like 2 months because it seems like every week we figure out another little tidbit about how the whole thing should work better.

I’m getting pretty close to trying it. When I finally do this I’m not gonna leave anything to chance if I can help it. Probably just oral Fin, oral EGF pills, and no topicals whatsoever.

If this setup fails to grow anything, then either my generic Leflunomide pills were fake or the whole Folica project is history. I’ll probably get an idea about whether the pills were legit from the side effects.

I just want THE question answered. I don’t care about what’s better for growth & density right now. All the rest of that stuff is horsesh*t if Folica’s core principle doesn’t work on humans in the first place.

30

» Already there.
»
» I’ve had a small amount of generic Arava pills for a while now.
»
» I’ve been sitting on the stuff for like 2 months because it seems like
» every week we figure out another little tidbit about how the whole thing
» should work better.
»
»
»
»
» I’m getting pretty close to trying it. When I finally do this I’m not
» gonna leave anything to chance if I can help it. Probably just oral Fin,
» oral EGF pills, and no topicals whatsoever.
»
» If this setup fails to grow anything, then either my generic Leflunomide
» pills were fake or the whole Folica project is history. I’ll probably get
» an idea about whether the pills were legit from the side effects.
»
»
» I just want THE question answered. I don’t care
» about what’s better for growth & density right now. All the rest of that
» stuff is horsesh*t if Folica’s core principle doesn’t work on humans in the
» first place.

This is pretty much how I am about it Cal. Im glad you’ve had better luck obtaining Arava that Ive had. :slight_smile:

The reason Im inclined just to take the adjuvants orally is that I dont want any wierd carrier (PPG, etc) screwing anything up. The mice with the human skin on it in Experiment 7 was just abraded and nothing else. I depliated last night manually with a pair of tweezers. No chemicals, nada. After three days, I’ll abrade…four more and I’ll start popping Silymarin Milk Thistle Extract and putting minox above and below (but not on) the wound. Im taking dustasteride for the next 13 days (I had some dutas caps from genhair). Thats it…I hope I can come back here in about 6-8 weeks and tell you guys Ive got a larger eyebrow above my left eye :stuck_out_tongue: , and a little more hair behind one ear, etc.

31

» This is pretty much how I am about it Cal. Im glad you’ve had better luck
» obtaining Arava that Ive had. :slight_smile:
»
»
» The reason Im inclined just to take the adjuvants orally is that I dont
» want any wierd carrier (PPG, etc) screwing anything up. The mice with the
» human skin on it in Experiment 7 was just abraded and nothing else. I
» depliated last night manually with a pair of tweezers. No chemicals, nada.
» After three days, I’ll abrade…four more and I’ll start popping
» Silymarin Milk Thistle Extract and putting minox above and below (but not
» on) the wound. Im taking dustasteride for the next 13 days (I had some
» dutas caps from genhair). Thats it…I hope I can come back
» here in about 6-8 weeks and tell you guys Ive got a larger eyebrow above my
» left eye :stuck_out_tongue: , and a little more hair behind one ear, etc.

Benji- first what method of abrasion are you using. Chemical peel sandpaper or what?

Second what is Silymarin Milk Thistle Extract and would you use Gefitinib in its place if you could get it? Thanx.

32

Benji -

Ya think chemical hair removers (like Nair) are a risk, even 3 whole days before the wounding? I thought that’s what they used in the experiments.

Tweezers are kinda impractical for my temple areas that are full of mostly-minuaturized follicles already. I don’t know what else could feasibly be done . . . maybe waxing the spot or something? I don’t want to give up on the hair removal beforehand because it seemed to make a major difference.

In your case,

I’m not sure how eyebrows & behind the ear areas will be great things to try unless they’re areas of skin that had scalp hairs originally. Aren’t we still basically talking about activating DNA-encoded commands for generating follicles? (And with the eyebrows, aren’t those flip-flopped in terms of androgen reactions? Aren’t they more like PRO-androgen hairs or something?)

33

» I’m not sure how eyebrows

Well, eyebrows are mentioned in the Follica’s patent as a target for treatment with their procedure.

» (And with the eyebrows, aren’t those flip-flopped in
» terms of androgen reactions? Aren’t they more like PRO-androgen hairs or
» something?)

Eyebrows are androgen-independant. Androgen is not required for them to grow, nor does it make them fall out.

34

I want to say that I appretiate your effort Z79. It is important that someone is trying. I also appretiate that you stayed honest with the results. Thanks.

35

» I want to say that I appretiate your effort Z79. It is important that
» someone is trying. I also appretiate that you stayed honest with the
» results. Thanks.

Just doing my part :slight_smile: I actually did not intend to let anyone know of my experiment unless I showed some convincing results. I still think it may be a bit to early to tell but I will surely try other ways (maybe take the drugs oral) in the future.

It is really not that hard to try this out on a piece of the scalp, I dont understand why not more people are willing to try. Everyone here is pretty much desperate for new growth and this is probably our best shot at the moment.

36

We need to know if the EGF inhibition works in humans like it did on the moused skin grafts. This is exponentially more important than anything else right now.

Everything else is basically like trying to invent lightbulbs & toasters before we’ve figured out whether electricity actually works or not.

37

» » I want to say that I appretiate your effort Z79. It is important that
» » someone is trying. I also appretiate that you stayed honest with the
» » results. Thanks.
»
» Just doing my part :slight_smile: I actually did not intend to let anyone know of my
» experiment unless I showed some convincing results. I still think it may be
» a bit to early to tell but I will surely try other ways (maybe take the
» drugs oral) in the future.
»
» It is really not that hard to try this out on a piece of the scalp, I dont
» understand why not more people are willing to try. Everyone here is pretty
» much desperate for new growth and this is probably our best shot at the
» moment.

Two things are stopping me to try it:

  • lack of knowledge of the details in the patent
  • lack of ingredients
38

» Two things are stopping me to try it:
» - lack of knowledge of the details in the patent
» - lack of ingredients

You also lack the ability to take control of a situation. Call it drive, call it motivation, ambition, whatever you want. You don’t have it. You take the easy route – do nothing and complain, rather than step up and try to improve your situation. I’m not saying this to flame you, it’s just an observation.

39

» » Two things are stopping me to try it:
» » - lack of knowledge of the details in the patent
» » - lack of ingredients
»
» You also lack the ability to take control of a situation. Call it drive,
» call it motivation, ambition, whatever you want. You don’t have it. You
» take the easy route – do nothing and complain, rather than step up and try
» to improve your situation. I’m not saying this to flame you, it’s just an
» observation.

quite possibly yes. I always been the guy who first thinks quite a lot, makes thoroughly sure that everything is perfect, does make sense logically and has good probability of succeeding before he actually does something.

btw I did wounding a year ago for few months together with minoxidil. That time they called it needling. It grew semi terminal vellus hair. nothing more.
(I’m not sure but I think that I have one terminal hair in my temple that it grew and that stayed there, but I’m not really sure)

I tried milk thistle 6 months ago, did not do anything or I have not noticed.

This time I would try gefinitib / acell, but withou it I have no reason nor confidence to think that any wounding will grow any substantial coverage.

Unfortunatelly gefinitib is not easy to obtain. If it was I’d first read the whole patent and probably spent few weeks trying to figure out many other things before actually proceeding with test on myself anyway.

For me, the lithium bandwagoon is closed case. It’s normal that many ppl still believe in it, but I’m sure that they will wake up from the dream sooner or later as well. Semiterminal vellus hair is good for nothing. And lithium wounding does not seem to grow useful coverage. Ok I do understand if some of you guys disagrees, but well, its your right to be trying and my right to be the one who sits and waits till some time few monts from now on when you give up. For these reasons I’m interested in trying only protocols containing gefinitib. The lithium guys so far report results that were acheivable two years ago. That first guy who reported needling. He eacheived some terminal hair coverage improvement just by minoxidil + needling. the results were rather mild, but noticeable on the photograms and for todays standards above average, especially in the frontal area. He was still bald, but improved temples and frontal hair and you could tell it on the pictures he’s not imaging it. Lithium guys do not seem to even think so far that pictures would show something worth talking. Thus I do not see any benefit from lithium, and thats why I’ve closed the case before it actually started for many of you guys. It looks to me that doing lithium wounding 100 times will probably grow the same as doing minox + needling 100 times.

BTW I now remembered a funny moment :slight_smile: When I brought the needling topic onto this forum (almost two years ago), and then when some did the same few other times, most of you guys seemed to be way too busy with ICX worshiping to even consider it. The topic soon disappeared in bellow all that “66 hairs, ICX will cure us tomorrow, because this marketing journalist copied the same old story and changed few sentences to make it look better” nonsense. Fortunately this time it looks like gefinitib may really be able to deliver something. That cancer guy persuaded me that it is the key, now the only question is how hard is it to use it correctly.

But I do admit that with the easy route you are true. Its the very low chances (in my opinion very very low chances) that stop me from trying anything that does not contain gefinitib, but I still apretiate if someone tries that again and again. Because there is always that “what if” factor.

40

I think Lithium might indeed be very useful, but not without the EGF-R inhibition to kick-start the whole process.

As for Gentifib issues, I’m willing to try oral Leflunomide for the 10 days that we’re talking about. It’s easier to get, much cheaper, and also a whole lot less of a counterfeit risk than Gentifib.

Taking oral Arava might not be fun. But honestly, the idea of having to take a full 1-mg dosage of Finasteride for that window of time scares me a lot more. My body was really kicking me in the groin when I subjected it to 1/2mg of Fin.